Jgoods45 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Who are the treaty whores of C&G now eh ODN?!?!?!?!?!?! Congrats to my good friends in ODN and their friends in Europa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325481558' post='2890445'] I don't know when you were in ODN; OsRavan was trying for a GOONS treaty in October 2010. [/quote] I'm pretty sure I was there in October 2010. I don't remember that. Either way, Europa is nothing like GOONS. I can't stand GOONS, but I love Europa. Edit: Yep just checked I posted on October 4, 2010 in a thread. I also voted on the MK MDoAP on October 28, 2010. At the very least, your dates are wrong my friend. Edited January 2, 2012 by Omniscient1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325482465' post='2890471'] I'm pretty sure I was there in October 2010. I don't remember that. Either way, Europa is nothing like GOONS. I can't stand GOONS, but I love Europa. Edit: Yep just checked I posted on October 4, 2010 in a thread. I also voted on the MK MDoAP on October 28, 2010. At the very least, your dates are wrong my friend. [/quote] I have PMs and logs from October 2010 detailing that Os wanted a GOONS treaty and that it wasn't popular; when Smurf raised his point I went and checked (you'll see me in the last active users at ODN's forum). Motivations may have changed since then, so it's entirely possible that my conclusion about this treaty is false, but whether or not you were aware of them, in October 2010 there were discussion in ODN on the subject of a treaty with GOONS. Edited January 2, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Actually Schatt he only wanted to improve ODN-GOONS relations and ironically you provided him the perfect opportunity with the WCE incident. That was when he and Sardonic got close. He was never after a treaty, publicly at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325483215' post='2890484'] I have PMs and logs from October 2010 detailing that Os wanted a GOONS treaty and that it wasn't popular; when Smurf raised his point I went and checked (you'll see me in the last active users at ODN's forum). Motivations may have changed since then, so it's entirely possible that my conclusion about this treaty is false, but whether or not you were aware of them, in October 2010 there were discussion in ODN on the subject of a treaty with GOONS. [/quote] I correct myself, make that September 2010. [url="http://www.orangedefense.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19232&view=findpost&p=10254726"]CoJ sent diplomats[/url] to ODN a day or two after we heard about the treaty ambitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325483215' post='2890484'] I have PMs and logs from October 2010 detailing that Os wanted a GOONS treaty and that it wasn't popular; when Smurf raised his point I went and checked (you'll see me in the last active users at ODN's forum). Whether or not you were aware of them, in October 2010 there were discussion in ODN on the subject of a treaty with GOONS. [/quote] To say "that OsRavan tried very hard to get a treaty with GOONS, and failed to gain the support of the membership (and I suppose Senate, since it didn't happen)." is just incorrect though. No vote on a GOONS treaty ever took place. There was no mention of it to the senate or the GA. I'm assuming the logs you're talking about is when Os was talking to Sardonic over the UPN incident. Saying to another alliance leader that you wished your two alliances could be friends is not the same as government trying to ram an unpopular treaty down their alliance's throat, as you suggested in your post. I like you Schatt, but as jaybooker says "speaks what u no is teh truths" Edited January 2, 2012 by Omniscient1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325483574' post='2890491'] To say "that OsRavan tried very hard to get a treaty with GOONS, and failed to gain the support of the membership (and I suppose Senate, since it didn't happen)." is just incorrect though. No vote on a GOONS treaty ever took place. There was no mention of it to the senate or the GA. I'm assuming the logs you're talking about is when Os was talking to Sardonic over the UPN incident. Saying to another alliance leader that you wished your two alliances could be friends is not the same as government trying to ram an unpopular treaty down their alliance's throat, as you suggested in your post. [/quote] There's no need for you to put words in my mouth, I've got quite enough on my own. Don't come in here with this hyperbolic bull. If I want to say that OsRavan tried to ram a treaty with anyone down ODN's throat, that's what I'll say, and we all know [i]that[/i]. And make no assumptions about what conversations I'm referring to--you are wrong, it was between myself and members of ODN--assumptions only make an ass out of you and Mption. [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325483574' post='2890491'] I like you Schatt, but as jaybooker says "speaks what u no is teh truths" [/quote] Cramp crap like that in your pipe. Call me a liar or don't. Edited January 2, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325483768' post='2890497'] There's no need for you to put words in my mouth, I've got quite enough on my own. Don't come in here with this hyperbolic bull. If I want to say that OsRavan tried to ram a treaty with anyone down ODN's throat, that's what I'll say, and we all know [i]that[/i]. And make no assumptions about what conversations I'm referring to--you are wrong, it was between myself and members of ODN--assumptions only make an ass out of you and Mption. [/quote] OsRavan realised in the first place that there was too much hostility amongst the ODN membership towards GOONS to try for a treaty, which is why he never tried to sign one. It was unnecessary with MDoAPs with MK and Umbrella anyway. He's not stupid, he just lacks vision. All he wanted was better relations with GOONS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325483768' post='2890497'] There's no need for you to put words in my mouth, I've got quite enough on my own. Don't come in here with this hyperbolic bull. If I want to say that OsRavan tried to ram a treaty with anyone down ODN's throat, that's what I'll say, and we all know [i]that[/i]. And make no assumptions about what conversations I'm referring to--you are wrong, it was between myself and members of ODN--assumptions only make an ass out of you and Mption. [/quote] Then apparently someone fed you faulty info. Edited January 2, 2012 by Omniscient1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1325483929' post='2890503'] OsRavan realised in the first place that there was too much hostility amongst the ODN membership towards GOONS to try for a treaty, which is why he never tried to sign one. It was unnecessary with MDoAPs with MK and Umbrella anyway. He's not stupid, he just lacks vision. All he wanted was better relations with GOONS. [/quote] [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325483974' post='2890506'] Then apparently someone fed you faulty info. [/quote] 26 September 2010 ..... [04:39] <xxxxxxxxxx> Have you heard about the new bloc forming? [04:39] <Schattenmann> No [04:39] <xxxxxxxxxx> Umbrella/GOONS/FOK/PC/VE [04:39] <xxxxxxxxxx> it's being announced soonish ..... [04:42] <xxxxxxxxxx> I have to decide whether I want ODN in a bloc full of people who dislike it (VE, FOK, GOONS to some extent) or whether we get close to ex-BLEU (who mostly dislike us over war of the coalition) [04:43] <xxxxxxxxxx> it's a horrible situation for us [04:43] <Schattenmann> Poor ODN can't get a break [04:44] <xxxxxxxxxx> Arsenal dislikes GOONS a lot and doesn't want us allied to them, but OsRavan does- there's a leadership struggle going on behind the scenes at the moment [04:44] <xxxxxxxxxx> well, not a *leadership* struggle, but a struggle over the future of the alliance [04:45] <xxxxxxxxxx> Arsenal is completely inactive, too, at the moment... he's returning to activity in january [04:47] <xxxxxxxxxx> what would you do in our situation? [04:47] <xxxxxxxxxx> Penguin is inactive, we can't get a treaty with Polar until he returns [04:47] <Schattenmann> I would advise anyoen to stay away from GOONS Again, that was a long time ago, so it is perfectly possible--maybe even very well likely--that my connect-the-dots to Europa, GOONS, and Os's former ambitions is faulty today. Given what I know, it makes good sense for Os for the reasons I already delineated. Now, if what I know was tainted by this person--who used no uncertain terms--then of course that makes the pudding off. In either case, the lack of a vote doesn't mean the discussion wasn't there or wasn't serious, it means that OsRavan is a politician and like any politician didn't throw himself on the fire for a vote he knew would fail. Edited January 2, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325484186' post='2890511'] 26 September 2010 ..... [04:39] <xxxxxxxxxx> Have you heard about the new bloc forming? [04:39] <Schattenmann> No [04:39] <xxxxxxxxxx> Umbrella/GOONS/FOK/PC/VE [04:39] <xxxxxxxxxx> it's being announced soonish ..... [04:42] <xxxxxxxxxx> I have to decide whether I want ODN in a bloc full of people who dislike it (VE, FOK, GOONS to some extent) or whether we get close to ex-BLEU (who mostly dislike us over war of the coalition) [04:43] <xxxxxxxxxx> it's a horrible situation for us [04:43] <Schattenmann> Poor ODN can't get a break [04:44] <xxxxxxxxxx> Arsenal dislikes GOONS a lot and doesn't want us allied to them, but OsRavan does- there's a leadership struggle going on behind the scenes at the moment [04:44] <xxxxxxxxxx> well, not a *leadership* struggle, but a struggle over the future of the alliance [04:45] <xxxxxxxxxx> Arsenal is completely inactive, too, at the moment... he's returning to activity in january [04:47] <xxxxxxxxxx> what would you do in our situation? [04:47] <xxxxxxxxxx> Penguin is inactive, we can't get a treaty with Polar until he returns [04:47] <Schattenmann> I would advise anyoen to stay away from GOONS Again, that was a long time ago, so it is perfectly possible--maybe even very well likely--that my connect-the-dots to Europa, GOONS, and Os's former ambitions is faulty today. Given what I know, it makes good sense for Os for the reasons I already delineated. Now, if what I know was tainted by this person--who used no uncertain terms--then of course that makes the pudding off. In either case, the lack of a vote doesn't mean the discussion wasn't there or wasn't serious, it means that OsRavan is a politician and like any politician didn't throw himself on the fire for a vote he knew would fail. [/quote] All you proved is Os likes GOONS. Nice, creative interpretation though. There was never a treaty vote to join PB, never a treaty vote for the new GOONS, never a treaty vote on Polar from that time period. I was there. Had any vote ever came up I would have known, because I would have been voting. Overall, Pingu and I had been jumping up and down screaming let's treaty Europa ever since it was determined BFF were absolutely cool guys. Europa is one of the coolest alliances out there, even if they are treaty to the worst alliance on planet Bob, commonly known as GOONS. Edited January 2, 2012 by Omniscient1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pingu Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 The subject of this conversation is my treaty, not Herr Schatt's stale gossip from half-informed sources about some entirely different treaty that exists only in his fantasies/nightmares. ODN has signed a treaty with Europa because it wants a treaty with Europa, not because it can't have one with GOONS. Start making sense or get out of our announcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325484548' post='2890517'] All you proved is Os likes GOONS. Nice, creative interpretation though. [/quote] Did you read the post? [i][04:44] <xxxxxxxxxx> Arsenal dislikes GOONS a lot and doesn't want us [b]allied to them, but OsRavan does[/b]- there's a leadership struggle going on behind the scenes at the moment[/i] [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325484548' post='2890517'] There was never a treaty vote to join PB, never a treaty vote for the new GOONS, never a treaty vote on Polar from that time period. I was there. Had any vote ever came up I would have known, because I would have been voting.[/quote] [snapback]2890511[/snapback][i]In either case, the lack of a vote doesn't mean the discussion wasn't there or wasn't serious, it means that OsRavan is a politician and like any politician didn't throw himself on the fire for a vote he knew would fail.[/i] [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325484548' post='2890517']Overall, Pingu and I had been jumping up and down screaming let's treaty Europa ever since it was determined BFF were absolutely cool guys. Europa is one of the coolest alliances out there, even if they are treaty to the worst alliance on planet Bob, commonly known as GOONS. [/quote] Good, and if I were claiming that is not true, then you would have a point. As it stands, I have speculated on the reasoning behind this treaty, going so far as to ask whose idea it was [i]beforehand [/i]to which I was told OsRavan. Now it's Omni's idea 3 pages later [i]ohhhhhhhh[/i]. Welcome to the Alliance Politics forum, we discuss alliance politics here. I have put forth a speculation and [b]made no claims to its supremacy or truth[/b], only [b]cited [/b]the information which led to it; there is no argument about whether or not I was told on multiple occasions in September and October 2010 that OsRavan wanted a treaty with GOONS, there is only an argument about whether or not that was true, and I have [b]already[/b] conceded that it may well be the case that the persons I spoke to were talking out of their butts. [quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1325484765' post='2890519'] The subject of this conversation is my treaty, not Herr Schatt's stale gossip from half-informed sources about some entirely different treaty that exists only in his fantasies/nightmares. ODN has signed a treaty with Europa because it wants a treaty with Europa, not because it can't have one with GOONS.[/quote] The subject of this thread is wherever discussion of it goes. [quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1325484765' post='2890519'] get out of our announcement. [/quote] Make me, nyah. Author's rights died a long, long time ago. Edited January 2, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325485180' post='2890524'] Now it's Omni's idea 3 pages later [i]ohhhhhhhh[/i]. Welcome to the Alliance Politics forum. [/quote] I quoted you right after you asked and said "it was me". I can't help it you ignored my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325485366' post='2890529'] I quoted you right after you asked and said "it was me". I can't help it you ignored my post. [/quote] I got three replies, YankeesFan tends to blow the least amount of smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325482465' post='2890471'] Either way, Europa is nothing like GOONS [/quote] Keep on' telling yourself that. Also way to look like an amateur, Schatt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pingu Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325485180' post='2890524'] Make me, nyah. Author's rights died a long, long time ago. [/quote] You are perfectly within your rights to continue to make a public spectacle of your bizarre, contorted 'thought' processes, of course. Based on your record, I can't expect you to have good taste or sense. But I can invite you to simulate them by withdrawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1325485688' post='2890533'] Keep on' telling yourself that. [/quote] We're way worse than GOONS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325485577' post='2890531'] I got three replies, YankeesFan tends to blow the least amount of smoke. [/quote] Either way, I tried to set the record straight after your incorrect assumption that Os has mind powers over us all. If you've decided to change your line to "Os is afraid to bring up a vote" from "Os brought up a failed vote" then I have no clue. That's something only Os would know and no one has proof of that. If you were just looking for an argument, then you can query me or send a pm. Overall, I'm not going to fight with you on the OWF, because I think overall we end up on the same side. No need in taking friendly fire. Edited January 2, 2012 by Omniscient1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325485180' post='2890524'] [i][04:44] <xxxxxxxxxx> Arsenal dislikes GOONS a lot and doesn't want us [b]allied to them, but OsRavan does[/b]- there's a leadership struggle going on behind the scenes at the moment[/i] [/quote] For a start, that is an extremely dated conversation because ODN-GOONS relations improved considerably and even FOK said they over-reacted to a certain leak and started to like ODN more eventually. Arsenal was considering forcing MK to choose between us and GOONS (but eventually warmed up to them and gave up on the idea) while rather than squander a lot of political capital with MK OsRavan wanted to get us closer to GOONS and remain tied to their sphere of influence rather than disrupting the web (also, Arsenal held historic differences with GOONS while Os didn't mind them.) Perhaps that is what your anonymous source meant by what they said (for the record guys, it wasn't me, although everyone in ODN is going to assume that.) I don't follow ODN politics anymore but I have a good idea of why they sign their treaties. They don't sign ODPs unless they intend to consider upgrading them at some point, so we can expect an MDoAP in a month or two unless something happens. Europa was tied to GOONS who are quite close to ODN now, so it made political sense, and the two alliances clearly came to like each other (another requirement in ODN's list of reasons why they sign treaties.) It's not some grand scheme of OsRavan's to eventually treaty GOONS. Edited January 2, 2012 by Kalasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsRavan Posted January 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 lol.... um what? How did we get side-tracked to this? Besides not getting the relevance of this, its also not true. Are you actually implying the europa treaty is some ploy to get close to goons? Excuse me while I chortle a bit. Even if my motivation in signing treaties was some weird attempt to get close to GOONS (its not), what are you honestly expecting the odoap with Europa to do that the MDP with Umbrella and MK and the MADP with TLR did not? In any event, the europa treaty was based off our relationship with europa nothing else. I don't think GOONS came up once at all in the conversations about them. If anything imo this treaties roots are to be found in the NEW-DT war when we fought each other and the bonding a bunch of us did over that war. Its very much the traditional story of two enemies fighting each other, having a ton of fun and gaining respect for each other. As to the logs, I don't know who told you we had been looking for a goons treaty (well, actually I think I can guess based on the time frame, as could many in ODN, but i'll refrain from naming names) but for my part, i've never had any plans for a treaty with GOONS. I cant speak for anyone else in ODN... but speaking for me I've never tried to have a treaty with GOONS nor pushed for one. Not that there would be anything wrong (or that it would be any of your business) if I had. I happen to personally like them a good bit. Especially Sardonic and Sir William. Good people. William is one of my flat out favorite people on Bob. But thats as far as it goes. I've certainly never tried to shape ODN FA around GOONS. Which is actually the same answer I went on record and gave when the person who (probably) gave you these logs made the same claims on our forums. Again, not that i'm sure what business of yours it would be if I (or ODN since I can't just make treaties appear) had wanted a GOONS treaty. And I can't think of many alliances I would trust more to guard my back. But I admit I chortled since its just so far out of left field. Especially the idea that everything we do somehow revolves around that. By the bye, i'm also unaware of any 'leadership' struggle with Arse, past or present. Was he even in ODN 6 months ago and not in GATO? Either way, he can speak for himself on that score but as far as i'm aware ive never had any falling out with him ((OOC: And though not in ODN we get along fine ooc still)). I also believe he is actually pro-modern GOONS, which would make those logs even more ironic. In any event, as amusing as this diversion was, I would prefer for the topic to be about the Europa/ODN treaty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325485850' post='2890538'] Either way, I tried to set the record straight after your incorrect assumption that Os has mind powers over us all. If you were just looking for an argument, then you can query me or send a pm. Overall, I'm not going to fight with you on the OWF, because I like you. My only friendly advice is to check out your sources better. I'd hate to have a source that lied to me. [/quote] Again with the hyperbole. Quote me saying that Os has mind powers over ODN. The fact of the matter is that I though it was a smart move by OsRavan, but you are so hellbent on me being anti-whatever that you skipped what I [i]said [/i]and ran with what you think I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1325486071' post='2890544'] Again with the hyperbole. Quote me saying that Os has mind powers over ODN. The fact of the matter is that I though it was a smart move by OsRavan, but you are so hellbent on me being anti-whatever that you skipped what I [i]said [/i]and ran with what you think I mean. [/quote] Actually, I just told you no vote ever took place. You insisted it did and went to find logs. Anyway, no more comments from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1325485976' post='2890543'] lol.... um what? How did we get side-tracked to this? Besides not getting the relevance of this, its also not true. Are you actually implying the europa treaty is some ploy to get close to goons? Excuse me while I chortle a bit. Even if my motivation in signing treaties was some weird attempt to get close to GOONS (its not), what are you honestly expecting the odoap with Europa to do that the MDP with Umbrella and MK and the MADP with TLR did not? In any event, the europa treaty was based off our relationship with europa nothing else. I don't think GOONS came up once at all in the conversations about them. If anything imo this treaties roots are to be found in the NEW-DT war when we fought each other and the bonding a bunch of us did over that war. Its very much the traditional story of two enemies fighting each other, having a ton of fun and gaining respect for each other. As to the logs, I don't know who told you we had been looking for a goons treaty (well, actually I think I can guess based on the time frame, as could many in ODN, but i'll refrain from naming names) but for my part, i've never had any plans for a treaty with GOONS. I cant speak for anyone else in ODN... but speaking for me I've never tried to have a treaty with GOONS nor pushed for one. Not that there would be anything wrong (or that it would be any of your business) if I had. I happen to personally like them a good bit. Especially Sardonic and Sir William. Good people. William is one of my flat out favorite people on Bob. But thats as far as it goes. I've certainly never tried to shape ODN FA around GOONS. Which is actually the same answer I went on record and gave when the person who (probably) gave you these logs made the same claims on our forums. [/quote] It's nice when we say the same thing. [quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1325485976' post='2890543']Again, not that i'm sure what business of yours it would be [/quote] One more that thinks AP is a hails-only venue. [quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1325485976' post='2890543']Was he even in ODN 6 months ago and not in GATO?[/quote] October 2010 was not 6 months ago; it was 14 months ago. [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1325486361' post='2890547'] Actually, I just told you no vote ever took place. You insisted it did and went to find logs. Anyway, no more comments from me. [/quote] I did not, you stupid donkey. How the hell do you presume to walk in here and try to participate if you are replying to things that were never even said? Edited January 2, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsRavan Posted January 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 six or fourteen either way never happened and is totally irrelevant to this treaty. Also... my mind powers are well established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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