Community Input on Improving CNRP, GMs and such.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

He asked, I answered. No woe intended although I try to bring it to my foes frequently.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1324364307' post='2882456']
No one is stopping you from RPing your unholy dragon-man hybrid.
[/quote]
Reminds me. Noone ever came to visit the former french royalty. They are in my country now.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Actually, they've escaped. Discussed it with Sarah. Hadn't gotten around to RPing anything about it yet. There would not be much to note except they're living on a southern Island in the Antarctic Preserve region.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Also fine with me. Wait...reptiles in the Antarctic? Sounds bad.

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1324428391' post='2882903']
Then we're back to my original question: What's stopping you from starting your own RP with orc shamans and eyes of newt?
[/quote]

Absolutely nothing, much like nothing is stopping the rest from not recognizing it either.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Evangeline Anovilis' timestamp='1324432314' post='2882941']
Also fine with me. Wait...reptiles in the Antarctic? Sounds bad.
[/quote]

Not reptiles. Chimera based on human media.. and a good chunk fish.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Kankou]

I can see why people rarely take Maelstrom seriously.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324435816' post='2882973']
I can see why people rarely take Maelstrom seriously.
[/quote]

Your maturity and grace are astounding. Ad Hominem.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324437225' post='2882988']
Your maturity and grace are astounding. Ad Hominem.
[/quote]
If I may say, your highness, having a full nation of genetically engineered reptile/fish-humans seems over the top for any serious RP. I can understand having one or two chimeras, I can understand having a small closed band of vampires who do not affect the course of war, I can understand T-virus mutants who would be contained. However, to have an entire nation would, if I may speak, be nothing but a laughingstock in the relatively serious atmosphere of CNRP.

[Captain Enema]

Take it to a private room you two.

Anything we agree on yet for cleaning up our mess? And yes.. the majority of the blame for our broken system is right on our own shoulders. We should have spoken up months ago and we didn't.

So speak up now yo what do we seem to agree on?


GMs as mediators?

What?

[Kankou]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1324437693' post='2882994']
Take it to a private room you two.[/quote]
I refused, based on being allergic to reptiles

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1324437693' post='2882994']Anything we agree on yet for cleaning up our mess? And yes.. the majority of the blame for our broken system is right on our own shoulders. We should have spoken up months ago and we didn't.[/quote]

1. GMs as mainly moderators. There should be a reserve team to temporarily take up the main GMs' jobs should there be possible conflicts of interest.

2. Uphold due process of procedure. There needs to be at least a formal discussion on the subject (by PM, not IRC) by all active GMs at the minimum for any reform to pass. Consensus is ideal, but majority works.

3. Set up a separate technology/ military panel.


Upon agreement on the above, I'll write up a bit on military and budgeting.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324437642' post='2882993']
If I may say, your highness, having a full nation of genetically engineered reptile/fish-humans seems over the top for any serious RP. I can understand having one or two chimeras, I can understand having a small closed band of vampires who do not affect the course of war, I can understand T-virus mutants who would be contained. However, to have an entire nation would, if I may speak, be nothing but a laughingstock in the relatively serious atmosphere of CNRP.
[/quote]

In the context of the existing setting, of course, I agree. But if the setting is modified to a more open system then it is not so rediculous. There should be nothing wrong with placing a template or theme over the statistics of your personal nation in the RP so long as it doesn't affect the outcome of warfare in the rp or become so abstract it loses any relevance to a physical existence. I have not proposed such a nation in the existing setting. But as part of the overhaul, the setting itself could conceivably be modified.

Also, who's definition of serious are we using?

If you want a serious realistic RP and you want to use mine, then all our nations are currently dead to nuclear fallout so we should quit playing because Bob is a radioactive rock.. or a ball of glass.

I would have to ask.. what race are these pretend creatures that are alleged to be human that roam bob and are immune to radiation because human... they are not. Perhaps we should rename them to "We wish we were human because our players are too gutless to play a real human existence with the consequences of real wars especially when it is politically inconvenient to us-oids."

With that context in mind.. just how crazy are my Chimera?

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324438034' post='2883001']
If you want a serious realistic RP and you want to use mine, then all our nations are currently dead to nuclear fallout so we should quit playing because Bob is a rock.[/quote]
There never has been enough fallout in the history of CNRP (as far as I know) that would remotely be close to a nuclear winter. Higher percentage of cancer, yes, but mass extinction? I would say you're fallen into the same scare tactics that people tend to fall into about nuclear weapons.

Now, if you would be so kind to at least say your opinion on the summary I have written above.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324438414' post='2883008']
There never has been enough fallout in the history of CNRP (as far as I know) that would remotely be close to a nuclear winter. Higher percentage of cancer, yes, but mass extinction? I would say you're fallen into the same scare tactics that people tend to fall into about nuclear weapons.

Now, if you would be so kind to at least say your opinion on the summary I have written above.
[/quote]

There have been hundreds.. if not thousands.. of nukes exploded in the history of Bob.. and many of them in yields exceeding 1 megaton. I'd say there's a high risk of it and many spots on the map currently should not even be habitable... like the capitol of the UFE. While it may not be an extinction grade event, we probably should be playing CN survivor right now with miniscule populations.

re: take it to a room

I'm married anyway.

re: actual gm ideas
As for the rest of your commentary... to much bureaucracy. We need one, maybe a trium of gms that are unbiased and not tied into the game to make any really un-biased decisions. If the one gm were sufficiently removed from the influence of the community, that would be sufficient. All they need is clarity on the rules and we'd be set.

I'd say HK as GM but he doesn't want the job :-P

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1324322741' post='2881979']
You know I think I've heard this idea before, actually I think Mael had this idea before when he was trying to create a God of CNRP. People already complain that they have to be in forced wars, if they had to be in forced natural disasters they would have a brain aneurysm. Also, nothing eliminates bias, people accuse each other of bias on a regular basis and that is never going to change. But I'm going to have to say something of bias here Subtle that you were friends will Mael and still are, so of course his suggestion doesn't bode poorly for you. That's the idea of bias.

That said, the idea of a narrator is a terrible idea. You have 30 some people all competing for narrator of their own stories and sometimes that gets screwed up. One Omniscient narrator, who will most likely become a character after so long. No, I don't like that at all.
[/quote]
You point out my friendship with mael, but conveniently forget I have friends on all sides of most conflicts--including you. I would, however, be perfectly willing to send a natural disaster your way.

So explain again how would I be biased in any circumstance?

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324438662' post='2883012']
There have been hundreds.. if not thousands.. of nukes exploded in the history of Bob.. and many of them in yields exceeding 1 megaton. I'd say there's a high risk of it and many spots on the map currently should not even be habitable... like the capitol of the UFE.[/quote]
I don't believe Qingyuan has ever been bombed. Furthermore, there are adequate technology for decontamination, especially since we are not dealing with some enclosed place like Fukushima.

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324438662' post='2883012']As for the rest of your commentary... to much bureaucracy. [/quote]
I would say it is sharing the burden.

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324438662' post='2883012']We need one, maybe a trium of gms that are unbiased and not tied into the game to make any really un-biased decisions.[/quote]
There seems to be no end to your idealism.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324439022' post='2883013']
You point out my friendship with mael, but conveniently forget I have friends on all sides of most conflicts--including you. I would, however, be perfectly willing to send a natural disaster your way.

So explain again how would I be biased in any circumstance?
[/quote]


There's a simple solution of Sarah's fear of a narrator becoming a character. Simply make a fundamental rule #1 against it in the rules about the narrator. "The narrator may never incarnate as a character in the setting in any way."

Being a narrator would not be a fun job. Finding someone willing to do so would be difficult. It would require a bit of work to post the events and keep track of global happenings in RL to constitute the events.. or whatever generator you base the events off of. It's not a "for fun" job. Narration would be a bit of a chore.

Then there would be the moaning and pining of when nation z got hit by random event x that totally screwd it when they should see it as an opportunity to improve their nation. Or, if they're well prepared... to demonstrate excellent disaster preparedness.

I don't know many nations that bothered setting up their CDC or FEMA equivalents.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324439133' post='2883014']
I don't believe Qingyuan has ever been bombed. Furthermore, there are adequate technology for decontamination, especially since we are not dealing with some enclosed place like Fukushima.
[/quote]

Go and tell that to the Russians at Chernobyl.. then tell them how to clean it up. When you try this, have a video camera nearby so I can watch one of the russian guard pistol whip you for being incompetent on nuclear matters and for insulting decades in effort into the cleanup. I think they said that site will not be clean of radioactivity to background levels for some many thousands of years.

Additionally, places that have been nuked into crater holes.. and nations that have been nuked into shreds.. rarely have the technology or infrastructure left over in place to even contemplate a nuclear cleanup without outside support and in the most serious areas.. a cleanup won't be possible. This is particularly true if the warheads had been intentionally designed to be "dirty".

The effects of Fukushima would not even be comparable to the devastation of a multi-megaton, amplified, dirty nuclear weapon. Enclosure is actually BETTER for nuclear cleanup because you can SEAL an enclosed emission source. You don't have that in a nuclear bomb.. the contents are all over the map in a foot print that can span for thousands of miles dependent upon the prevailing winds.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Captain Enema]

I'm more for the GMs being mediators. If a problem crops up that can't be mediated the community votes on it.

Everything else from tech to military is by the vote of the community.

What the community wants, the community gets.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I don't like dictatorship of the majority.. because sometimes the majority is the minority in sheep's clothing.

[Captain Enema]

Today's minority is tomorrow's majority. I personally don't like having 3 people tasked with governing a community with the amount of power they have. I'd like to remove that power and put it into the hands of the community.

[Kankou]

Add in a 3 month term then.

[Captain Enema]

Still doesn't do anything for limiting their power. The power itself is what needs to be removed.

[Tanis777]

See the thing is with all systems, they in some ways flawed. We have a GM team for a reason since RPers can and will most likely be not impartial to judgement. Unfortunately, our GM team is amongst the ranks of RPers, which is double-edged sword sometimes, which provides a route to community moderation.

The way I've seen disputes to be resolved is the current system, it's just people are too hot-headed and biased to produce a decent outcome in some high-profile cases. In which case, this my flow chart of dispute resolves.

Self-moderation between two or more players via PM -> self-moderation via OOC thread for public and GM review -> GM ruling if necessary -> community moderation if problems are part of a larger ongoing problem.


It works, but people are stubborn to "I'm bigger, I win" or "insert something here that makes your reasoning sound, but it's not". I know this impartial problem spans way back to when I first started playing CNRP back in 2008, I know we've proposed having that "impartial" GM who did play the game "retire" from the game in a sense. When I look at that, it didn't really solve the problem, it's really still us.

In the end, the roots come back to the main flavor of RP that exists here, which is rooted in defense and war. We have a huge emphasis on technology and disregarding everything else. People keep stating certain things are just too complex to comprehend or understand, this is no excuse to completely shrug off. Most of us are just replacing entire air force fleets and navies with unlimited money as the newest technology comes along. I don't advocate the use of GDP or introducing economic schools of thought, this conflicts with the three rules of RP. Building stuff should be more realistic.

1) Use common sense
2) KISS
3) Have Fun

If anything, we need to relook into technobabble and copy pasta battle attacks. I know this problem exist in the realms of technology that is being developed and not thoroughly tested IRL; amongst the lower tiers, we know that certain plane, tanks, weapons do different things, and some better than others.

The things lost in war I believe is the sudden appearance of hundred of thousands of troops via planes and ships, when in reality, the logistics are very difficult, not to mention bring in supplies. Logistics is something I've long seen a huge disregards in. The main thing is when "trying" to be realistic, I'll pull up the US, is having bases in foreign lands to support large rapid deployment. Or lets say for Korea that we have 28k troops there and under OPLAN 5027-00, the counteroffensive would build up to 690,000 troops, 160 Navy ships and 1,600 aircraft deployed from the U.S. within 90 days. (This is from one source, so the truth could be stretched, but previous troop build up as in Desert Shield or Afghanistan suggest it could hold true).

I don't know about you, during the Cochin-Rebel Army War, these movements are unrealistic, but I know you are trying to speed up the RP.

The second thing in the ignorance of logistics is operational range of your equipment, we think we can just barge into a nation and take them out licky split. However, since most of you guys use Main Battle Tanks, you should know the maximum range of your tanks is 300 miles give or take a few miles and your support vehicles (fuel, food, ammo) must try to keep up. During Operation Iraqi Freedom, it is documented about the logistic issues as US armored forces pushed rapidly towards Baghdad, obviously one of the stories in the Jessica Lynch story. The US military is fully aware that having all the technology in the world is meaningless without their experience in logistics to keep fighters in the fight with legions devoted to logistics and studies on it. www.ndu.edu/CTNSP/docUploaded/Case 15 Sense and Respond.pdf

Being on the offensive is an enormous logistic nightmare, being on the defense is not. Under the following scenarios, support from France to the Gulf Federation would span over a month as they tried to move 200,000 troops across the Atlantic, instead of days. It would require an enormous convoy of ships that you probably don't have. No navy on earth, including the US Navy can conveniently move troops in that magnitude within a week.

Another thing I note the use of artillery makes likes little casualties in these wars, killing hundreds instead of thousands when you have hundred of thousands of troops deployed in a bunch. We don't take in terrain or morale affects, although I see the use of battlefield experience as a factor.

In space wars, many of you have back-up spy sats and military communications sats available. When you think of the economic costs of a satellites at the minimum range of $50 million a launch, I find it hard to believe you guys stockpiling hundreds of millions of dollars in inactive equipment and not to mention the maintenance costs.

That's the thing, if we want to be "realistic" we have to accept all the effects of this world or none at all. We are picking and choosing, and that's simply becoming unacceptable.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Tanis, I think that was one of the most fruitful contributions to this topic yet, and is one of the reasons I pretty much gave up the ghost in the game. Everything is fantastic if not superhuman.. yet they want to pretend it's normal. Yet I just try to pretty my nation up with a theme and they call it strange. The hegemony of the unquestioned majority gets its way and will denigrate and isolate any opposition whilst being selective on what to be serious about.. and what to let simply pass by.

So I will be mocked for wanting non-human species and creating chimeras.. while 1 million soldiers will go speeding across a desert without a drop of drinking water in tow. A sub will spot a navy on sonar through the british isles while it should take the lessor liked target nation a large sum of time and previous rp to simply mine some ports which is a common action of major powers or even minor powers during a serious defense escalation.

Double standards run deep.

I hate to say it but I'm not certain a resolution can be reached. I think this community may be filled with people who are too self-centered, selfish, and bent on preserving their status in the rp to care about any shade of 'realism' other than the ones they brand themselves. They want to keep the niche they have in their little corner of this forum.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex