Kill the techno-babble?

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Pravus Ingruo']Kill the techno-babble. It's killing CNRP.[/quote][quote name='Lynneth'] I for one fully approve of this.
Kill the babble. Bring back fun.[/quote]

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Pravus Ingruo']. . . What should go is all the useless techno-babble that is tossed around. I consider myself a smarter than average individual, but I have simply stopped reading the Rebel Army-Cochin war thread because I simply cannot be bothered to make my head hurt even more after a long day of work to read two paragraphs about someone's super stealth plane/missile/dildo that would probably not work in the real world how they fantasize it just to see at the end they fired off 10,000 of them. I shouldn't need to read about the exact mixture of chemicals that makes your missile/rocket/flaming midget go 10 kms farther than the other guy. I shouldn't need to then read through two pages of !@#$%*ing from armchair engineers who aren't working on future concept projects for DARPA/Lockheed Martin/Boeing because guess what? If you did work for any of those companies you wouldn't be allowed to post about it here.
Kill the techno-babble. It's killing CNRP.[/quote]Pravus says it best.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Generalissimo

[Generalissimo]

Having brainstormed (http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=107053) issues concerning (possible) community dissatisfaction concerning CNRP’s current system battlefield technologies to identify what (some consider) the problem Generalissimo (Generalissimo of Procinctia) is finally taking decisive action!

If (so-called) techno-babble’s the problem I have a divisive (although less than comprehensive) solution, kill the techno-babble!

Our CNRP community is capable of determining the rules of our world through community consensus determined through polling.

My formal proposal is to kill, as it is currently manifested, the techno-babble.

[Vasuda]

A bunch of people also PM'd a list of similar/related concerns to the RP mods yesterday. That's all I'm gonna say about that until we hear back from HK, but I did vote in the poll.

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Vasuda' timestamp='1324100150' post='2880339']A bunch of people also PM'd a list of similar/related concerns to the RP mods yesterday. That's all I'm gonna say about that until we hear back from HK, but I did vote in the poll.[/quote]A poll, however, is a direct initiative to determine community consensus.

[PresidentDavid]

No offense partner but everyone will agree technobable is annoying, aggravating, detrimental to creative RP, and stupid for both sides. The question isn't if we should get rid of these things but how we can fix these problems and what the solutions are... Everyone agreeing that it is bad and needs to go away isn't the hard part.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

Here's my problem with this argument, which has been rehashed over and over and over again. Say that the community overwhelmingly votes to end technobabble, what changes. I don't think technobabble is a problem in CNRP more than people not wanting to: one, risk their land to invasion or war and two, agreeing with each other on how to war. You might not like 10,000 missiles being spammed at someone, that's fine and I do believe the people fighting in the Cochin War are trying to solve that problem. But honestly I want to know what is technobabble? Cause what if someone likes to write with heavily infused RP? What if they find it fun. I made an ass out of myself before saying that this kind of writing was stupid and EM and others corrected me that I had no basis to judge and I didn't. If you want to ban a style of RPing, as "technobabble" is, then you should ban all other styles of RPing that people don't agree with to.

Mergerberger didn't like character RP. Should that be banned?

No, what needs to happen is people need to start trying to be a bit more respectful to each other and then plan wars out that are logical and fun. People also need to learn how to lose and the winners of the war, need to be able to talk to the losers and make it so that stories and plots can continue. That should be your argument, not banning technobabble.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Sarah Tintagyl

[Captain Enema]

Technobabble to me is merely another form of roleplay. I really don't feel comfortable with denying a person their own personal amusement. I've said this loudly in a couple of other places and I'll say it again here, as long as those who are fascinated with advanced technology are willing to sit down and patiently explain it all to me then let's dance.

What is killing CNRP isn't how we RP. I think it is a three part problem.

1st.. The GM position needs to be fixed, badly. I don't at all like what it has turned into. It was supposed to be about mediation and now it is something entirely different. Before anyone blames it all on Triyun, Centurius, and Cochin you ought to think back and try to remember how many crappy decisions past GMs have made to create this current state of affairs.

But essentially the GM position has turned into a position that RPers use as a weapon against others. The GM position should be more about assisting two parties to making some sort of agreement to keep the RP flowing. They should be doing this via mediation and encouraging cooperation.

If people refuse to cooperate then we as a community should be making a decision to scrub them off the map entirely.

2nd.. CNRP is roleplay. I've always been under the impression that Roleplay is two people acting out roles. In order to act out these roles there has to be a certain amount of cooperation to create a good story.. You can't force someone into roleplaying, which means if this is all about creating stories of interest and having fun you must cooperate.

Somewhere along the line we got away from cooperating and gotten on the track of dominating each other completely. This might be fun for some but clearly it isn't getting others to cooperate with making a story of interest.

3rd.. The rules. Get rid of all of them and create a simple set that we can all agree upon.

I keep seeing references to past rules which are no longer in use and current rules which are being used half-heartedly. Rules have come about from a variety of situations that might no longer be pertinent.

Who should enforce the rules? The community. It is a community driven RP, we all have a responsibility to see to it things are done fairly and with respect to others. If someone can't follow our simple rules, be respectful, and work with others to create good readable stories..

Wipe them.

[Captain Enema]

Don't get me wrong though, I WILL never stop ripping on the technobabblers. It is just too much fun winding some of you up, but yeah.. if exploring technological possibilities is what you enjoy, by all means.. Go enjoy it.

RP should be fun for everyone and as long as your fun isn't ruining someone else's fun, why not have at it?

[Kaiser Martens]

I...I ...

Think I agree but.

I better read this tomorrow...once more.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

"End the Technobabble" is too loosely defined. What is technobabble to one person may not be to another.

[Mogar]

Can we make this poll about making TBM's post happen?

[JEDCJT]

Yes, kill the techno-babble. With fire.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Vasuda' timestamp='1324100150' post='2880339']
A bunch of people also PM'd a list of similar/related concerns to the RP mods yesterday. That's all I'm gonna say about that until we hear back from HK, but I did vote in the poll.
[/quote]
Assuming that bunch of people made some group PM towards the RP mods, why not also most that PM publicly?

[Vasuda]

Well it's on each individual who was involved to make their own thoughts public if they so choose. I'm not going to paste 15 messages in here right now. I don't want to make it seem like anyone is trying to hide anything though, so I will post my reply to the initial PM:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: This is probably going to start some sort of flamewar over a completely unrelated point in this thread. HK-47 asked us to be patient while he and some other mods process the feedback that they already have. I'm inclined to respect his request and not kick off a long thread about this. If anyone wants my words from the PM conversation, PM me or ask me on IRC.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Vasuda

[Kankou]

Ah, I took what you said to mean some kind of organized petition. If that wasn't the case, no need/wish for it to be public.

[Captain Enema]

So long as people are explaining what they are doing and being respectful we should include all sorts of role play styles.

It's about the encouragement of stories and having fun. If you idea of having fun is about ruining another person's fun then you should really move along and blow crap up on some brain-dead shooter game.

What we do here should be about working together to create a worthwhile and creative writing environment for people to explore all sorts of ideas and concepts they normally wouldn't.

People have repeatedly chanted the mantra, "IT IS CYBERNATIONS ROLE PLAY" without putting any real emphasis on the role play.

I've always believed, though there have been numerous occasions when I've digressed from this believe, but I've always believed that role play must be something both parties consents to.

Now I recognize this is difficult to do in a nation based role play. The very idea must boggle people's minds that I'm seriously saying that if someone doesn't want to role play the complete destruction of their nation because it isn't fun to them, they shouldn't be forced to do so.

Now compromise is a wonderful thing. Issues arise on the international scene that forces us all through millions of men into motion on a weekly basis. One can only imagine how our soldiers find the time even to procreate with all the marching around they do.

But as I was saying, Compromise is a wonderful thing and a storyline should be something two people or two groups create together to make something that is fun for both.

Is this possible to do every single time? Actually it is, but just extremely difficult.


Mediation, it is a wonderful thing.

I truly believe the only guidelines we should have are a tech scale to keep things reasonable.

No battle mechs.

and No god modding or metagaming.

Beyond that everything should be discussed by the community on a case by case basis. If people can't be encouraged to resolve their issues through mediation in a respectful manner the role play should be abandoned and if they keep it up they should be wiped off the map.

Would this create problems? Most certainly it would create problems. But I have 99 problems now with the system we have and this idea ain't one of them.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Tidy Bowl Man

[Subtleknifewielder]

Ah, from what I understand of the situation currently outside looking in, it's not the technobabble that's killing the community, it's the fact that people who don't use it seem to be handicapped against those that do. Penalized, if not directly, then be the simple fact that they can't understand a word of it...

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324120628' post='2880504']
Ah, from what I understand of the situation currently outside looking in, it's not the technobabble that's killing the community, [b]it's the fact that people who don't use it seem to be handicapped against those that do.[/b] Penalized, if not directly, then be the simple fact that they can't understand a word of it...
[/quote]

I highly agree with you. Join the bandwagon, or be a road kill.

I have trouble comprehending some wars that have tons of tech stuff in it. I had to pull up the combatants' factbooks repeatedly to understand what they are using.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

I agree the technical stuff is a bit hard and one can't expect that one reads one article of a war between two advanced nations and then does all the background research of everything. Especially as many may not know how exactly some things work. I for example know what radar is for and that reducing the profile of your aircraft may help avoiding it, but I don't know every possible material that is absorbing radar, nor do I know how said materials do that. If someone told me that they have material xyz that is absorbing almost all of the signature and makes the aircraft appear to small to be shown for even modern radar, just because it consists out of some special carbides in a special constellation and with a special number of whatever added to it, I will either have to attent some higher chemistry class or just believe it. Normally, I have to go with the second option, though I then at least ask another of these 'specialists' for confirmation.

One thing that helps me, however, is the fact that the amount of techno-babble is almost always proportional to the amount of IG tech and IG infra, making it a clear case of overkill anyways.

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324120628' post='2880504']Ah, from what I understand of the situation currently outside looking in, it's not the technobabble that's killing the community, it's the fact that people who don't use it seem to be handicapped against those that do. Penalized, if not directly, then be the simple fact that they can't understand a word of it...[/quote]The man with the most detailed schematics will no longer win by default.
Detailed wars focusing on technology will be possible: not mandatory, not decisive.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Generalissimo

[Generalissimo]

[quote name='PresidentDavid' timestamp='1324103169' post='2880376']No offense partner but everyone will agree technobable is annoying, aggravating, detrimental to creative RP, and stupid for both sides. The question isn't if we should get rid of these things but how we can fix these problems and what the solutions are... Everyone agreeing that it is bad and needs to go away isn't the hard part.[/quote]With enough support techno-babble can be killed!
I have no proposals for what comes next.
Details of the post-techno-babble order can be determined once the current system is destroyed.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Generalissimo

[Triyun]

I voted for current system works fine even though it doesn't because comparitively getting rid of technobabble unless you get rid of all tech, just leads to tech efficiency, a far worse system which removes actual role playing and leads to a numbers game based on whose been around the largest in a neutral alliance. That is obviously the worst system. What I've seen reading this thread are some big misunderstandings, and I think that as TBM and I have discussed, you need to be willing to explain some tech at times to people when you make a war post.

Take Eva's thing for example. I don't think anyone has a plane that is stealth purely based on radar absorbing materials, nor is there a plane that is completely invisible to radar. All these planes are a combination of shaping (as far as I know) and stealth. Thats not a secret tech, thats also on the F-22, F-35, and B-2 IRL. And rather than being invisible to radar, it reduces the range of detection. If an F-22 say has a smart bomb or missile with a 60 km range, and it can only be detected at 20 km, the F-22 is functionally invisible to radar, not actually invisible. Thats where I think a lot of people's misunderstanding arise.

I also think that Generalissimo misunderstands somethings here too. Having the best of anything makes very little difference if you don't know how to wield it. A lot of these technologies are about using like an orchestra rather than one !@#$%*ing electric guitar. You gotta know how to move them in concert, each piece setting up the other to maximize the overall effectiveness. This isn't something limited to the past ten years of warfare either. There have always been support units and support systems backing up the sexiest parts of the war machine, and those that can use both will always have the advantage. But it makes no sense to fight WW II, with Gulf War + weapons, just like it'd make no sense in reverse.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324135519' post='2880552']
I also think that Generalissimo misunderstands somethings here too. Having the best of anything makes very little difference if you don't know how to wield it. A lot of these technologies are about using like an orchestra rather than one !@#$%*ing electric guitar. You gotta know how to move them in concert, each piece setting up the other to maximize the overall effectiveness. This isn't something limited to the past ten years of warfare either. There have always been support units and support systems backing up the sexiest parts of the war machine, and those that can use both will always have the advantage. But it makes no sense to fight WW II, with Gulf War + weapons, just like it'd make no sense in reverse.
[/quote]

I guess it doesn't make sense to use the Gulf War weapons according to WWII tactics and strategies. But yes, combined arms is something important and it is not impossible to beat even someone advanced with better RP. And as Triyun said, to reward the depth of RP is by far a better system than to reward the number of tech one has.

[quote name='Generalissimo' timestamp='1324132667' post='2880539']
With enough support techno-babble can be killed!
I have no proposals for what comes next.
Details of the post-techno-babble order can be determined once the current system is destroyed.
[/quote]

Also, I don't think it is the most intelligent move to abolish something without having an alternative at hand. Else, we will now discuss the matter, abolish techno-babble, have a period of techno-anarchy as noone knows how to deal with it, then we agree to reinstate techno-babble. It would be short-sighted and meaningless. We dislike many things in live, but if there are no better alternatives, we have to coop with it.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

Also I think that no matter what age you would fight in, time period wise, you'd have a degree of techno-babble. People spamming some ten thousand 'fifty-pound artillery pieces' or something. It is like an orchestra and coincidentally, but like techno-babble, the movement of characters across a map can be just as boring if you don't use them correctly. Again I think TBM's idea is probably the best idea that's come out of this thread and as for Generalissimo's argument, aside from citing players who have complained about technobabble, if you don't have some alternative move then the thread is kind of moot.

You can't ban a style of writing. People are going to do it whether you want them to or not.

Another suggestion I have is that if you dislike the way war is moving in our RP world, start warring yourself to begin to create an influence on how war should be fought.