Something is Missing

[Stonewall Jaxon]

What has become of Planet Bob? This war seems to envelop more of the world than any conflict has in years; there are strikingly few alliances not involved. As a member of such an alliance, I have the pleasure of viewing the debates between the two sides from an objective standpoint. As expected, every announcement and thread eventually degenerates into heated argument between footsoldiers eager to prove their loyalties to their respective sides by outwitting their opponents in the public venue. However, this war so far just hasn't had the same feeling of satisfaction that for me typically accompanies a global conflict. The banter is just... empty. This is in contrast to my usual excitement to see the clash and hear the sting of battle. What is the missing piece; what gives this war such a feeling of meaningless?

For one, there has been shockingly little text. Once upon a time, if war were declared on an alliance, the group's best orator (or at least someone who perceived himself to be as such) would step forth, pen in hand, to speak his mind to the rest of the world. Some wrote to shine the light of truth on great injustices, some wrote to spin facts and win favor for their alliances despite misdeeds they may have committed, and others wrote simply in protest of their fates or to slander their opponents. This war stands in a sad contrast. Rather than the walls of text of Bob's past, all we have today are a series of stark, rude comments volleyed to and fro by people on the OWF seemingly incapable of conveying coherent thoughts. Have all of our planet's orators abandoned us? Or have we all accepted the degeneration of rhetoric on Bob and adjusted our words accordingly?

Once upon a time, these halls were cluttered with enough walls of text to convert the OWF into a labyrinth of rhetoric and impressive argument. This was the time of the "noCB War," in which the seemingly unjustified nature of the war was a catalyst for much of CN's greatest oration. The sentiment eventually spawned a movement, and that movement spawned positive change. I should not have to draw the parallels between that time and this one. That war was named by many the war of "the Coalition" because it was not the sole action of one bloc, yet the Continuum was widely known to be the driving force that brought together a coalition of The Continuum, the SuperFriends, One Vision, Poseidon, the Citadel, and many others to crush all alliances that sought to align themselves against the powers that were. Many uninvolved parties, without treaty ties, sought involvement on the winning side of the war and earned the brand "bandwagoners" from their detractors.

In today's war, there has been, by the aggressive side, no attempt at making justification for this war. Where is the response to this? Many alliances that could have prevented involvement have professed and acted upon desires to join the war on the "winning side," for reasons unbeknown to me. Where are the detractors? Friendships have been abandoned in the name of security, yet which alliances are willing to take a stand and declare that to them Friends > Infra? Where is the "Who's Next?" mentality that existed among many alliances of the Coalition immediately after the war they all fought to eliminate a former ally? I'm starting to get ahead of myself.

A wise man once had a vision for the world. He dreamt of a time in which "basic political opposition is not considered the most damnable of crimes, and where "security" is not held above humanity" and where "the future is uncertain but bright, where no single power operates unchecked." He dreamt of an end to the "practicality and pragmatism, which drives man to covet without any attention to morality, justice, or fairness" and instructed those who shared his vision to "never, ever, ever, ever give in." This man's words inspired me in my most youthful days, and his message has stayed with me and largely defined my time here. And now, to see the strong harming the weak, and the rule of righteousness gone from this land affects me deeply, and to see no one willing to stand in the name of justice and what is right is almost enough to make my spirit falter. From the words of the combatants, it appears not only that Justice has died, but also that she passed unnoticed and unwept. I am moved to speak and say that I have wept for the passing of Justice, and I only pray that I am not alone. Even if now is not the time to enact change, I want to know that someone reading this agrees and shares my pain at the death of dreams of many brave men of our past. Who else is unafraid to shed even a single tear for what we have lost, and what we may never regain?

I am sorry if I my post veers most verbose, but I could not remain silent any longer. Thank you for reading

Edited December 9, 2011 by Stonewall Jaxon

[Krack]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1323473890' post='2871349']
That war was named by many the war of "the Coalition" because it was not the sole action of one bloc, yet the Continuum was widely known to be the driving force that brought together a coalition of The Continuum, the SuperFriends, One Vision, Poseidon, the Citadel, and many others to crush all alliances that sought to align themselves against the powers that were. Many uninvolved parties, without treaty ties, sought involvement on the winning side of the war and earned the brand "bandwagoners" from their detractors.
[/quote]

The majority of your post bores me, but I do resent you lumping Superfriends in with rest of this group; particularly when you were a spy in a SF's alliance for months during this time and if you had paid a modicum of attention to what was going on, you know it's blatantly inaccurate.

[quote]In today's war, there has been, by the aggressive side, no attempt at making justification for this war. Where is the response to this? Many alliances that could have prevented involvement have professed and acted upon desires to join the war on the "winning side," for reasons unbeknown to me. [/quote]

There's only so many ways to eloquently say "We're doing this because we're bored and no one can stop us."

[quote]Where are the detractors?[/quote]

Detractors? Who's gonna detract? A bunch of alliances committed suicide and you're mad nobody's gonna speak out on their behalf?

Edited December 10, 2011 by Krack

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1323475361' post='2871396']
There's only so many ways to eloquently say "We're doing this because we're bored and no one can stop us."
[/quote]
If you actually think that's why this war kicked off then you must be the one who is not paying attention.

[Canik]

Stonewall, a big part of the reason there is so much less content is because there are so many less nations.

Also, it seems you are nostalgic of a time when great justice ruled the land. An illusion. There is always and has always been much corruption, ulterior motives, agendas, power struggles, aggression, grudges, revenge, betrayals, raiding, lies, deceit, curbstomps, extortion, etc, etc. There have always been moralist who fight against all those things. I am sure there are many who agree with you, although, many will side with you secretly for revenge, and a range of other agendas. Then, one day, if justice (from your perspective) is served, it will again be shorted lived and "evil" will once again reign supreme. Then there will be more moralist outrage.

The only thing that has changed is now we're in a smaller, shrinking, ancient world that is tired of putting on the same old song & dance routine.

[Caustic]

If you think its bad now just wait until there are only a few thousand of us left and the endwar commences.

[chefjoe]

Lady justice died on this world years ago. Karma and its false rally cry of making a brighter and less oppressive world that was then used as a smokescreen for what was basically just a power change rather then a social change drove the final spike thru her heart. Our current situation is nothing more then kicking the already dead and bloated corpse of what was once a lively and viable component of Bob

[Aeros]

If this world is corrupt and stagnant, if it is beyond redemption, then there is only one outcome for it. It must be destroyed. If you truly believe this Stonewall, then do your part to burn that corrupt world to the ground. From its ashes may arise a new world order. All you have to do is fire the nukes.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Aeros

[Ogaden]

The world changes with actions, not words.

[Ryan Greenberg]

We have been stuck in the Bipolar era for almost two years. We knew this war was coming and there isn't any shock to it. Bob was too idealistic in our hopes after Karma. It was a power shift, as chefjoe noted, not a revolution. The time period between Karma and Bipolar was somewhat interesting/unpredictable with Moralism and the multi-polar world, but these eventually withered away. I believe change can come after this war though. In my opinion, this war [i]needed[/i] to happen.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[IYIyTh]

Hahahahahah what?

All you speak of is going on, people just know better.

Orator's that opened their mouths were never taken seriously and any events that have happened have happened because they were politically expedient to do so, and for no other reason.

Edited December 10, 2011 by IYIyTh

[Doitzel]

What's there to talk about? These wars are being declared for no reason. I am going from thread to thread trying to find something tangible to argue about -- there's [i]nothing[/i]. That's how bad things are: I am speechless! It's a damned tragedy, it is, as if the community has simply give up on itself.

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1323485442' post='2871580']
We knew this war was coming and there isn't any shock to it. Bob was too idealistic in our hopes after Karma.
[/quote]
!@#$%^&*. More like "too complacent in its actions after Karma".

edit:


[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1323486367' post='2871611']
Hahahahahah what?

All you speak of is going on, people just know better.

Orator's that opened their mouths were never taken seriously and any events that have happened have happened because they were politically expedient to do so, and for no other reason.
[/quote]
Also, this is the cancerous mindset that's brought everything to its knees. Private channels ftw!

Edited December 10, 2011 by Doitzel

[Manis B]

we still have our wars, but we're lacking in theatrics.

[TehChron]

If you want verbosity, Stonewall Jaxon, you can always contract me out.

Im sure I can come up with a wordy justification for either side.

That being said, Im not really in a position to agree or disagree, since I was always pretty indifferent to Lady Justice around these parts. Most of us are ruled by personal feelings rather than lofty ideals. Most, if not all, orators throughout the years were much the same. That awareness is what enabled them to do what they did so well.

[Ameris]

Bob isn't anything close to what it was a long time ago.

People pledged their whole lives to this line of work. While most citizens in their respective nations would go out and have lives, their leaders would work tirelessly and faithfully scrutinizing every last detail of their nation.

Now a days leaders don't really care about their own anymore.

[Dajobo]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1323483762' post='2871551']
Lady justice died on this world years ago. Karma and its false rally cry of making a brighter and less oppressive world that was then used as a smokescreen for what was basically just a power change rather then a social change drove the final spike thru her heart. Our current situation is nothing more then kicking the already dead and bloated corpse of what was once a lively and viable component of Bob
[/quote]

The irony of you saying this while making sure you are nice and safe on the larger side is gold.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1323506088' post='2872320']


Also, this is the cancerous mindset that's brought everything to its knees. Private channels ftw!
[/quote]

No, it's not.

A bunch of "intellectuals," talking about idealism in a world where nothing has ever been done that wasn't politically expedient aggrandizing what little speck of significance they may or may not have had in it is just boring and smacks of narcissism. Hell, half of these mouth-breathers go back and forth between which "era," they claim to have some form of nostalgia for their ideal good or bad.

Simply put:

Talk is cheap.

Edited December 10, 2011 by IYIyTh

[Doitzel]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1323530665' post='2872579']
No, it's not.

A bunch of "intellectuals," talking about idealism in a world where nothing has ever been done that wasn't politically expedient aggrandizing what little speck of significance they may or may not have had in it is just boring and smacks of narcissism. Hell, half of these mouth-breathers go back and forth between which "era," they claim to have some form of nostalgia for their ideal good or bad.

Simply put:

Talk is cheap.
[/quote]
I think you'll find this Machiavellian worldview is very unhealthy for an interactive community, and that it's actually highly unpopular except among whomever happens to be sitting at the big kids' table at any given time. This world [i]is[/i] character-driven, and character is precisely what it's lacking. We need only look at NPO to see what happens to insular political constructs when they withdraw from the public discourse and discard their outward identity to suit the mood of the moment.

Then again, you're in IRON -- the political equivalent of that generic cereal that looks like the good stuff, but it comes in a bag rather than a box, with a dumb logo and a name so bland you can't remember it no matter how often you look. Your perspective is consistent.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Doitzel

[Ardus]

OOC: I'd hoped to have a grand, self-congratulatory, magnum opus of smug, but I've been buried in exams. Sorry Stonewall.

[OsRavan]

Well. To play devil's advocate (since you want wordy posts). All those things you ever argued about. Were any of them ever honest? I remember past wars. It was one side pretending the war was about their CB instead of their ulterior motives. The other side pretending to be shocked and outraged by a horrible miscarriage of justice that they had known was coming for months. I always viewed all those 'epic posts' as rather... well... two-faced in their motives.

It was basically everyone BSing everyone. And people beating their chests and making drama over nothing. Or alliance A BS's alliance B, so B gets outraged and exaggerates back at A to make their point. Please don't sit here and try to pretend this used to be a bastion of deep intellectual reflection and discussion. I'll laugh in your face.

And I can't say I particularly miss the change either. Maybe this way is less 'interesting' without all the exaggerated drama. But its also probably more honest. And certainly gives me less of a headache as I wade through mountains of hypocrisy and idiocy.

I at least always found what stonewall is describing in the OP to be sort of... well.. sleazy. People being dishonest with their words to win 'victories.' Pretending that there was some fundamental moral difference between group A and group B based on the most idiotic and mundane differences. When really, they were essentially a collection of rather similar people.

Maybe if people just got over their hang-ups and moral outrage we could have those wars that were fought hard and ended peacefully without reps.

In fact, talking about achieving the goals of karma. IMO the biggest stumbling blocs to those goals are exactly what Stonewall claims is dying out in this game. Two-faced moralism, over-dramatized outrage, and the trying to spin simple dislikes/grudges into epic battles of good and evil. The goals of Karma are more easily achieved if we stop pretending, fight for honest reasons, and then pick up and move on.

Allow me to explain. When do heavy reps occur? When people are able to argue that one alliance has done something morally horrible to another. And thus reps need to be extracted as 'punishment'. The lead up to those reps are alliances spewing forth endless justifications and 'outrage' and working themselves up to the point where they feel justified in punishing the 'evils' of the other alliance. Or can convince the rest of the world community that it is alright because 'look at XYZ. They need to be punished for their sins1'

Well. If we stop trying to force alliances that are all roughly the same into 'good' and 'evil' and their actions into 'good' and 'evil' then you also lose the ability to demand reps. If everyone is just warring. Just fighting for allies. And no one cares about the morals of it. Then... there is no justification to demand reps out of them.

So actually... one could argue that you all should be embracing this change.

Edited December 10, 2011 by OsRavan

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1323533145' post='2872603']
I think you'll find this Machiavellian worldview is very unhealthy for an interactive community, and that it's actually highly unpopular except among whomever happens to be sitting at the big kids' table at any given time. This world [i]is[/i] character-driven, and character is precisely what it's lacking. We need only look at NPO to see what happens to insular political constructs when they withdraw from the public discourse and discard their outward identity to suit the mood of the moment.

Then again, you're in IRON -- the political equivalent of that generic cereal that looks like the good stuff, but it comes in a bag rather than a box, with a dumb logo and a name so bland you can't remember it no matter how often you look. Your perspective is consistent.
[/quote]

(This is an IC Discussion?)

Machiavelli must've been a smart guy then if his world-view seems to echo reality. In fact, I'd wager that he'd probably say your emphasis on the problem being the current system is following his own view in and of itself as an attempt to justify action against whom you perceive to be at the "big boy's table." Your claim that the "system," is at fault for all you claim to be "wrong," and wish to "change," or overthrow it. Predictable. Boring. Just say it.

As for perspective, I think I'm more qualified and unbiased than most and have a pretty solid history of being consistent.


(I'll ignore the IRONy at the suggestion Polaris' leadership has not historically acted in a Machiavellian manner in addition to the odd quip that IRON is a cookie-cutter alliance from a member of the New Polar Order.)

[MikeCrotch]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1323534886' post='2872624']
As for perspective, I think I'm more qualified and unbiased than most and have a pretty solid history of being consistent.
[/quote]

No offense man, but if you're unironically saying this about yourself, you're probably not unbiased.

As for the general argument, the simple argument is no-one cares about meaningless arguments anymore. Some of us just like to fight, especially if it's people we hate. If it's just defending an ally, whatever. War is good.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='MikeCrotch' timestamp='1323536202' post='2872639']
No offense man, but if you're unironically saying this about yourself, you're probably not unbiased.

As for the general argument, the simple argument is no-one cares about meaningless arguments anymore. Some of us just like to fight, especially if it's people we hate. If it's just defending an ally, whatever. War is good.
[/quote]

I didn't say I was free of bias.
If you think I am more biased than your average herp-derp "Behold my accomplishments," or "My alliance is best alliance," member of our planet by all means provide examples.
I can recall of at least two instances involving your alliance in particular that prove my point pretty poignantly.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1323534232' post='2872615']
[don't mind if I snip this. I appreciate the length though- Stonewall]
[/quote]

I do not personally believe that those who once bemoaned power-hungry, aggressive actions were lying at the time. I do, however, believe that power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Actually, I should correct that quip and say "the perception of power," since numerous alliances in the past and present have perceived themselves to be in power when the reality was much different. Would anyone really say that alliance's in NPO's Hegemony really had power, when it was obvious which individuals pulled the strings of the others? At one time we all saw smug posts from \m/, FAN, GOONS (the old one), Polaris, and several others under the careful protection of Pacifica, claiming they were powerful and gloating over the alliances they defeated in wars. How did that turn out for them under NPO's Hegemony? Post-Karma, the Superfriends had the same mentality, as they were a part of the unstoppable SuperGrievances cluster, yet where are they now? So, to alliances like your and GOONS and TOP, I'd like to issue an advisory of caution. Tread lightly when dealing with forces such as a Hegemon.

That tangent aside, I refuse to believe that every alliance in history claiming it wishes to stand against unjust actions was lying to the masses. Rather, those individuals did not have the strength to refrain from using their newfound power to its greatest extent, and I can't fully say I blame them. However, the fact that once side in a major war once labeled itself "Friends > Infra" speaks volumes to me, and I find it telling how many "friendships" have fallen in today's world in the name of greed.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1323523009' post='2872487']
The irony of you saying this while making sure you are nice and safe on the larger side is gold.
[/quote]

Recognizing circumstances and acting accordingly in order to secure ones friends and alliance mates is how survival works.

These are the cards that have currently been dealt, play accordingly.

Or you can sit in the corner crying for good times past while getting your ass handed to you for being an anachronistic pariah.

I know which id choose

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1323556092' post='2872909']
Recognizing circumstances and acting accordingly in order to secure ones friends and alliance mates is how survival works.

These are the cards that have currently been dealt, play accordingly.

Or you can sit in the corner crying for good times past while getting your ass handed to you for being an anachronistic pariah.

I know which id choose
[/quote]

To quote someone I know:

[quote]Save it, D34th, Mjolnir is too busy helping MK destroy their ex-allies to pay attention right now. [/quote]

You're doing a lot of fighting right now, chef, while DoomHouse is giggling and prodding you along. Like I said in my reply to OsRevan, just because you're on the winning side right now doesn't mean you're in a position of power or that you're not disposable.