Legends of Cybernations

[TehChron]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1322537383' post='2855371']
Bilrow or Grub over Dilber?

:psy:
[/quote]
That's because Dilber isn't a Legend.

He's a Myth.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1322539924' post='2855464']
That's because Dilber isn't a Legend.

He's a Myth.
[/quote]
That is a lie. I've seen the Dilber with my own eyes. He is no myth.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1322540202' post='2855472']
That is a lie. I've seen the Dilber with my own eyes. He is no myth.
[/quote]

Was he wearing pants?

[Dilber]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1322540202' post='2855472']
That is a lie. I've seen the Dilber with my own eyes. He is no myth.
[/quote]


This is actually true. :<

[TehChron]

[quote name='Dilber' timestamp='1322541311' post='2855491']
This is actually true. :<
[/quote]
Clearly those pictures were actually of weather balloons. Or really badly photoshopped images of Robin Williams.

[memoryproblems]

The Holyone, founder of the NAAC. Not a household name, but his contributions had a big impact.

AirMe, I think it sometimes gets forgotten that AirMe was NAAC protector for multiple terms, in the middle of which was GW2 (in which, If i recall, he pushed for no nukes.)

[Delta1212]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1322541809' post='2855503']
Clearly those pictures were actually of weather balloons. Or really badly photoshopped images of Robin Williams.
[/quote]
Who said anything about pictures?

[TehChron]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1322542583' post='2855516']
Who said anything about pictures?
[/quote]
Just rehearsing my lines of argument for whatever proof you present to back up your claims.

You don't seriously expect the rest of us to take your word for it, now do you?

[D34th]

I'm a legend, it's truly a shame the fact that nobody realized it yet.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1322543208' post='2855530']
I'm a legend, it's truly a shame the fact that nobody realized it yet.
[/quote]

Yes, you and RyanGDI.

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1322543345' post='2855535']
Yes, you and RyanGDI.
[/quote]
RyanGDI surrendered to me once.


Ivan, Dilber, Archon, Sponge, and probably Grub.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1322537383' post='2855371']
Bilrow or Grub over Dilber?

:psy:
[/quote]
I'm biased in favor of length of influence, which hurts Dilber because he wasn't really Emperor for very long (which goes a doubly long way to not getting saddled with some massive $%&@-up). I don't disagree with anybody that he's among the best FA operatives in CN.

[mattski133]

If I could remember, the dozen or so people in #collective when I walked in. Legendary times.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322539162' post='2855447']
Threads like this just remind me how much generational and alliance lore shape perceptions. I mean Egore? Dude helped form, kill and reform a single alliance whose major accomplishments have been rooted in the works of others. 404, R and DV? They have all been gone for literally four years. Are they actual legends?

Real legends last multiple generations, have significant accomplishments which affected the game as a whole, and possess charismatic, larger than life personalities. Apply those criteria and who do you get? A select few.

Who do I think those select few are? Hands down: Ivan, Tyga, Dilber, Sponge, Grub, Crymson, Ardus, Archon and Doitzel. More debatable: Moo-Cows, Vladimir, Denial/Revanche, mpol, Roquentin, Xiphosis, Delta1212, and a lot of the leadership from the last generation or two.
[/quote]
While there's always going to be niggling over the names, I agree with the rationale behind this post.

[MasterChief]

Definitely Xiph

[Olaf Styke]

ROFL somebody mentioned Comrade Vader

In any case the lists thus far have missed a lot of prominent GATO and Maroonity personalities. Nobody bothered to put down Tulak Hord, who has been there from the very start, and has always been in a position of some influence on CN politics. Dementual probably deserves a spot up there as well, as does Furseiseki (though for altogether different reasons). Alot of GOONS leaders like Llamuella & Co.

...the list goes on.

[kriekfreak]

I don't think Tyga or Dilber should be considered a 'legend'. Sure they might have had an impact on global events but many others did the same. Xiph should be definitely in the last because he impacted global events for years.

I think there can only be like 3-5 'legends' others are just memorable or considered (in)famous.

My personal top5:

1. Ivan (impact global events, come back and impacted global events once again)
2. Sponge
3. Archon
4. Xiph

5. Doubting if Bilrow and/or Moo-cows should be up there too. If not, they should be top of the list for the 'in'famous part of CN.

Roquentin might be considered a great leader by many but he didn't do enough to warrant the status 'Legend'.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' timestamp='1322664478' post='2856990']
ROFL somebody mentioned Comrade Vader

In any case the lists thus far have missed a lot of prominent GATO and Maroonity personalities. Nobody bothered to put down Tulak Hord, who has been there from the very start, and has always been in a position of some influence on CN politics. Dementual probably deserves a spot up there as well, as does Furseiseki (though for altogether different reasons). Alot of GOONS leaders like Llamuella & Co.

...the list goes on.
[/quote]

How can you honestly say that Tulak is a legend? Sure he has been a leader for a long time, but I've hardly seen his name being brought up in high-gov discussions. I'd say memorable at best.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1322666043' post='2857008']
How can you honestly say that Tulak is a legend? Sure he has been a leader for a long time, but I've hardly seen his name being brought up in high-gov discussions. I'd say memorable at best.
[/quote]

How are we defining legend, then? If we're doing it purely by how often somebody's name comes up in conversation, there are plenty of people who never held any position of authority, or had any real influence, but managed to be a thorn in everyone's side, or post so obnoxiously or so often that their names come up more often than anyone elses.

If you're doing it by longevity, Tulak has virtually everyone in CN beat, short of Ivan himself, and possibly a few select others.

If you're doing it by positions of authority in key alliances, then he's had that for ages in one alliance or another with the old MDC, or currently Sparta...

If you're doing it by number of historic events they've had a hand in, Tulak's had his mitts on more than his fair share of happenings over the last 6 years...

If you can't add Tulak to the list, it's gotta be a pretty short list...

Edited November 30, 2011 by Olaf Styke

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' timestamp='1322666452' post='2857013']
How are we defining legend, then? If we're doing it purely by how often somebody's name comes up in conversation, there are plenty of people who never held any position of authority, or had any real influence, but managed to be a thorn in everyone's side, or post so obnoxiously or so often that their names come up more often than anyone elses.

If you're doing it by longevity, Tulak has virtually everyone in CN beat, short of Ivan himself, and possibly a few select others.

If you're doing it by positions of authority in key alliances, then he's had that for ages in one alliance or another with the old MDC, or currently Sparta...

If you can't add Tulak to the list, it's gotta be a pretty short list...
[/quote]

It should be a very short list. I mean sure Tulak held a position of power a long time but it's also what he did with it. Sparta has been a major player for a long time but I have not yet seen 1 radical move that changed the dynamics of the game.

It's people like Xiph, Ivan, Moo, Grub, Crymson, Moo-Cows, Archon and even Sardonic () that shaped this world. They held a position of power and actually did something with it. Now I don't want to dismiss anything Tulak did for his own community but a Legend? No I don't think so. If you have the categories Legend as highest, (in)Famous as second and memorable as third, I'd put Tulak in the third category myself. Although others might put him in the second. I think we can agree that he doesn't come near the first.

And also I'd like to add that there is a big difference between obnoxious and any of the other three categories. People like Haflinger and Arrnea or Altergo are far from being memorable of infamous. Just obnoxious basically.

Edited November 30, 2011 by kriekfreak

[Ardus]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' timestamp='1322666452' post='2857013']
How are we defining legend, then? If we're doing it purely by how often somebody's name comes up in conversation, there are plenty of people who never held any position of authority, or had any real influence, but managed to be a thorn in everyone's side, or post so obnoxiously or so often that their names come up more often than anyone elses.

If you're doing it by longevity, Tulak has virtually everyone in CN beat, short of Ivan himself, and possibly a few select others.

If you're doing it by positions of authority in key alliances, then he's had that for ages in one alliance or another with the old MDC, or currently Sparta...

If you're doing it by number of historic events they've had a hand in, Tulak's had his mitts on more than his fair share of happenings over the last 6 years...

If you can't add Tulak to the list, it's gotta be a pretty short list...
[/quote]

It's a combination of longevity and the number of [u]major[/u], game defining periods they personally shaped. Ivan defines the Ancient Era, the NPO, and much of the political system that's grown to dominate CN. Sponge defines the Continuum Era, the NpO, and many of the grudges that fuel political divisions today. Archon defines the Karma era, the MK, and the political order that set up and determined every global conflict since Karma. Grub is the singular cause of almost every anti-Polaris force today, the perpetrator of a single act that clearly shapes CN today. I mentioned Bilrow before because I'm biased in favor of the importance of the old Green Team politics: he singularly launched the conquest of Green, which planted the seeds that would end The Initiative, set up a rivalry that would define the politics of an entire sphere, and triggered multiple controversies that would add to the long list of grievances attributed to the NPO. I'm sure plenty of people would disagree with me on that last one and I think they have reasonable enough grounds to do so.

It should be an extraordinarily high bar and a very short list, and though Tulak has been around in leadership roles since forever, I don't think he clears that bar, at least not any more than many others do.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1322666750' post='2857016']
It should be a very short list. I mean sure Tulak held a position of power a long time but it's also what he did with it. Sparta has been a major player for a long time but I have not yet seen 1 radical move that changed the dynamics of the game.

It's people like Xiph, Ivan, Moo, Grub, Crymson, Moo-Cows, Archon and even Sardonic () that shaped this world. They held a position of power and actually did something with it. Now I don't want to dismiss anything Tulak did for his own community but a Legend? No I don't think so. If you have the categories Legend as highest, (in)Famous as second and memorable as third, I'd put Tulak in the third category myself. Although others might put him in the second. I think we can agree that he doesn't come near the first.

And also I'd like to add that there is a big difference between obnoxious and any of the other three categories. People like Haflinger and Arrnea or Altergo are far from being memorable of infamous. Just obnoxious basically.
[/quote]

Well if you insist on there being a fundamentally game-changing dynamic involved for one to be a candidate, it pretty much leaves Ivan Moldavi as THE Legend of Cybernations. Xiphosis, Moo, Grub, Crymson etc. have all been big players in CN, granted, but none of them changed the game. Ivan wrote CN's history from it's beginning to the point where Karma finally put the dog down for good. He's the only player who's influence transcended his alliance, and really made his presence felt on an 'inter-alliance' scale. Since then, there haven't been any decisive figures in CN.

[quote]
It's a combination of longevity and the number of major, game defining periods they personally shaped. Ivan defines the Ancient Era, the NPO, and much of the political system that's grown to dominate CN. Sponge defines the Continuum Era, the NpO, and many of the grudges that fuel political divisions today. Archon defines the Karma era, the MK, and the political order that set up and determined every global conflict since Karma. Grub is the singular cause of almost every anti-Polaris force today, the perpetrator of a single act that clearly shapes CN today. I mentioned Bilrow before because I'm biased in favor of the importance of the old Green Team politics: he singularly launched the conquest of Green, which planted the seeds that would end The Initiative, set up a rivalry that would define the politics of an entire sphere, and triggered multiple controversies that would add to the long list of grievances attributed to the NPO. I'm sure plenty of people would disagree with me on that last one and I think they have reasonable enough grounds to do so.

It should be an extraordinarily high bar and a very short list, and though Tulak has been around in leadership roles since forever, I don't think he clears that bar, at least not any more than many others do. [/quote]

I have to agree it should be a short list. However, I think you can argue a lot of people on or off that list fairly arbitrarily. The only unquestionable legend is Ivan. You have an inclination to include Bilrow for Green Team's political affairs, I have an inclination to include Tulak for Maroon's, and the whole culture Maroonity spawned, and the conflicts it was responsible for back in the inter-war period of GWI-GWII... Maroonity spawned numerous political dynasties that changed CN history; RIA, Nordreich, MDC, ONOS to name a few. He was one of the founding fathers of that movement, as was Delta1212 etc.

I don't know how wide or narrow the field should be in the end, but excluding people like Tulak off-hand sets a good precedent for doing the same to virtually everyone else you've listed. When it comes down to it, they've all had a fairly significant hand in the making of CN as it is today. Ultimately they were all cogs in the machines of state, and none of the events they had roles in were entirely of their own making or under their control. Ivan is the only prime-mover here.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Olaf Styke

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' timestamp='1322667725' post='2857025']
Well if you insist on there being a fundamentally game-changing dynamic involved for one to be a candidate, it pretty much leaves Ivan Moldavi as THE Legend of Cybernations. Xiphosis, Moo, Grub, Crymson etc. have all been big players in CN, granted, but none of them changed the game. Ivan wrote CN's history from it's beginning to the point where Karma finally put the dog down for good. He's the only player who's influence transcended his alliance, and really made his presence felt on an 'inter-alliance' scale. Since then, there haven't been any decisive figures in CN.
[/quote]

Like my friend Ardus said, it's a combination of things and I believe it's not just Ivan, even though he might be called the godfather of the Legends. Grub influenced many actions from BiPolar till now (2 years), ES the few years before that, Xiph and Archon played their parts in many other recent wars (Archon for Karma and the war of the coalition (I think its called that) and Xiph played a prominent role in basically the latest few wars even if he wasn't as visible). Moo was a force to be reckoned with too, like Bilrow and Crymson. Although I think the last three are close but can not (yet) be called a Legend. The same goes for people like chefjoe, Impero, MikeTheFirst, Divi Filius, Sardonic and some others. I wouldn't even put myself in the top 2 categories even though I was involved with and in many of the wars and skirmishes that took place in the last 2 years. I'd put myself in the third category next to Goldie, and a lot more second in command or 'minor' leaders like Randomly, Tulak and more (see TCO's list).

Edited November 30, 2011 by kriekfreak

[ChimpMasterFlash]

Longevity of a player has little to do with a Legend or its definition. You could import criteria such as longevity or x y z contributions in a [i]Hall of Fame[/i] style of thread. But a Legend is what people remember. Simple as that.

1 a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable b : a body of such stories (a place in the legend of the frontier) c : a popular myth of recent origin d : [b]a person or thing that inspires legends[/b]

The arguments in this thread are entirely grounded on ambiguous nature of the thread's title. "[i]LEGENDS[/i]"

The fact is almost all parties are right on who should be what in one way or another if you change the title to [i]CYBERNATIONS HALL OF FAME [/i] or INFAMOUS PLAYERS of CN.

A Legend is simply someone that has done something that someone else remembers, true or not.

"A person or thing that inspires legends" That is were it is subjective and the list would in fact be long rather than short.

[mattski133]

i think a legend would be someone who is no longer here whose actions still echo down to present day.

if you're still here it's hard to be a legend.