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Yevgeni Luchenkov

A new Declaration from The Order of the Paradox

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What's with all of the whining over this CB?

It's not even been two years. Talk to me when February gets here.

And since when has there been a statute of limitations on CBs? Who gets to decide when said statute is? Sounds like arbitrary reasons to !@#$%* about something to me..

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[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1322364709' post='2853226']
What's with all of the whining over this CB?

It's not even been two years. Talk to me when February gets here.

And since when has there been a statute of limitations on CBs? Who gets to decide when said statute is? Sounds like arbitrary reasons to !@#$%* about something to me..
[/quote]

This. I'll also add a "Does anyone REALLY care?" in there.

I have only one issue here: [ooc]Damn you for starting a war while I'm playing Skyrim. And during a Steam sale. *shakes fist*[/ooc]

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[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1322364695' post='2853225']
I agree that Polaris' actions in approving the strike on MK was a betrayal by them upon MK. That is not my point.

You are upset that you were betrayed, yet as you stated in the bold above, you guys are okay with asking others to stab their allies in the back. This is where I have an issue and trouble understanding how you guys can legitimately be upset. You hate that you were betrayed but have no qualms asking others to betray their allies. NpO was at fault for giving the go, but TOP is no better than NpO for asking them to betray an ally.
[/quote]
You do understand that not all treaties are honored in times of war, right?

Do you call each and every single one of them a betrayal? No.

MK was going to be on the opposite side of Polar's coalition. Asking Polaris if they minded about the move wasn't traitorous or dirty. It was a strategical move that needed to be done.

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[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1322364695' post='2853225']
I agree that Polaris' actions in approving the strike on MK was a betrayal by them upon MK. That is not my point.

You are upset that you were betrayed, yet as you stated in the bold above, you guys are okay with asking others to stab their allies in the back. This is where I have an issue and trouble understanding how you guys can legitimately be upset. You hate that you were betrayed but have no qualms asking others to betray their allies. NpO was at fault for giving the go, but TOP is no better than NpO for asking them to betray an ally.
[/quote]

NpO had, earlier in the war, informed MK that they did not intend to honor their MDP with that alliance during the war.

Nice try. I think you're zero for ten million at this stage in your forum-going career.

Edited by Crymson

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[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1322365307' post='2853234']
NpO had, earlier in the war, informed MK that they did not intend to honor their MDP with that alliance during the war.

Nice try. I think you're zero for ten million at this stage in your forum-going career.
[/quote]
Stop trying to change history here, Crymson.

I am quite sure that MK had informed NpO that it would not defend NpO for attacks they would suffer as a result of the attacks on \m/.

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[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1322366075' post='2853239']
Stop trying to change history here, Crymson.

I am quite sure that MK had informed NpO that it would not defend NpO for attacks they would suffer as a result of the attacks on \m/.
[/quote]

Regardless of how events unfolded, why the hell should we worry about someone that is on the opposite side of a war, and our enemy being stabbed in the back?

We were not friends, and knew we would be fighting them. There is quite a difference between knowing that Polar would not be informing, and in fact sanctioned an attack on our enemy, and what Polar did to us, and the rest of that coalition.

Why argue so much about it, you won't convince us, and apparently we won't convince you. Push the declare war button and settle our differences on the battlefield.

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[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1322366075' post='2853239']
Stop trying to change history here, Crymson.

I am quite sure that MK had informed NpO that it would not defend NpO for attacks they would suffer as a result of the attacks on \m/.
[/quote]
God damn, man. You're really just persisting with this, aren't you.
MK weren't exactly thrilled with the notion of NpO's crusade against \m/-Poison Clan, and so they were focused more upon the NSO-IRON-TOP link than attempting to save Grub from his folly. The assumption was that NpO, frustrated by lack of MK support, would maintain its war against the \m/-Poison clan side and use the presence of preexisting military committment to dismiss concurrent treaty obligations, as has been a precedent many times (mention bubblegum to schatt for a full explanation).
The fact that NpO put itself in the position where it was to betray one or the other does not negate the betrayal in itself. TOP read the way that the war was developing and decided where it would be best to place itself, using the stressed relationship between MK and NpO as the lynchpin of their plan. Why the hell you think TOP should have to bear to burden of NpO's hypothetical decisions i haven't the faintest.

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[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1322374609' post='2853472']
Why argue so much about it, you won't convince us, and apparently we won't convince you. Push the declare war button and settle our differences on the battlefield.
[/quote]


shhh, he's part of the "nuclear" proliferation league.... scary right? 'cept he's not really proliferating any nukes himself?

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There's nothing to argue about here. TOP considers this a CB and that's that. Arguing over these things never lead to a conclusion.

BTW, I don't believe TOP was as innocent in that whole fiasco as some make them out to be. Crymson saw a chance to split MK and Polar, two allies who were enemies of TOP, and pulled the trigger once the opportunity came about with the \m/ thing. TOP didn't become moralists over night. It was a solid political plan actually. Of course few, including members of Polaris, knew what would happen next until the minute the NpO DoW on TOP was posted. Those were some entertaining days.

Edited by Ryan Greenberg

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[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1322377284' post='2853499']
There's nothing to argue about here. TOP considers this a CB and that's that. Arguing over these things never lead to a conclusion.

BTW, I don't believe TOP was as innocent in that whole fiasco as some make them out to be. Crymson saw a chance to split MK and Polar, two allies who were enemies of TOP, and pulled the trigger once the opportunity came about with the \m/ thing. TOP didn't become moralists over night. It was a solid political plan actually. Of course few, including members of Polaris, knew what would happen next until the minute the NpO DoW on TOP was posted. Those were some entertaining days.
[/quote]

If you knew ANYTHING about the TOP of that time, you would know that the majority of our alliance members were very much moralists. Many left to help NpO, and there was a large debate about even entering. Reason those of us left that did, was because we didn't think TOP would enter. After the debate about entering on a moralists front finished, then the planning began.

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[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1322366075' post='2853239']
Stop trying to change history here, Crymson.

I am quite sure that MK had informed NpO that it would not defend NpO for attacks they would suffer as a result of the attacks on \m/.
[/quote]

Are you unable to read?

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[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1322377284' post='2853499']
TOP didn't become moralists over night.
[/quote]

You are absolutely right, we actually had a streak of moralism from the very beginning, particularly when it came to tech raiding. That is why when the membership and Heptagon were asked whether they would like to support Polar in their war against \m/, we voted with a resounding yes. To help Polar because we agreed with your cause. Ending up pre-empting C&G was part of the strategic details, of which the Heptagon vote and membership discussion had no part in forming. Don't act like it was entirely opportunistic, lest we start drudging up pms some of us sent to Grub at the time.

Edited by Crispy99

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[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1322377284' post='2853499']
There's nothing to argue about here. TOP considers this a CB and that's that. Arguing over these things never lead to a conclusion.

BTW, I don't believe TOP was as innocent in that whole fiasco as some make them out to be. Crymson saw a chance to split MK and Polar, two allies who were enemies of TOP, and pulled the trigger once the opportunity came about with the \m/ thing. TOP didn't become moralists over night. It was a solid political plan actually. Of course few, including members of Polaris, knew what would happen next until the minute the NpO DoW on TOP was posted. Those were some entertaining days.
[/quote]

NpO was not an enemy of TOP at that time. Relations had been improving, and contact had been close, for some time. There were even talks of a possible treaty.

You, like Jaiar, have pretty much never gotten anything right on here.

Edited by Crymson

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[quote name='Bodvar Jarl' timestamp='1322364039' post='2853217']
Alternatively Polaris stabbing MK in the back by sanctioning such an act, hmm?
[/quote]
Except they didn't and told MK. Actions speak louder than words after all. I know it's crazy, but it's entirely possible that Grub lied to a non-ally to get an ally into a much more powerful political position.

I mean the whole thing with you guys just flat out asking if you could attack an ally was stupid as hell. It would have been a masterstroke if Grub just admitted he lied instead of acting like a pompous windbag.

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[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1322381414' post='2853555']
Except they didn't and told MK. Actions speak louder than words after all. I know it's crazy, but it's entirely possible that Grub lied to a non-ally to get an ally into a much more powerful political position.

I mean the whole thing with you guys just flat out asking if you could attack an ally was stupid as hell. It would have been a masterstroke if Grub just admitted he lied instead of acting like a pompous windbag.
[/quote]
If i recall correctly, it was more Archons mediating the quick resolution that salvaged the position, particularly when it came to the \m/ front. You'd need to talk to the guys in \m/ and PC gov at the time about specifics, but i definitely remember a few IRC logs to that effect following the peace.

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[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1322383477' post='2853570']
If i recall correctly, it was more Archons mediating the quick resolution that salvaged the position, particularly when it came to the \m/ front. You'd need to talk to the guys in \m/ and PC gov at the time about specifics, but i definitely remember a few IRC logs to that effect following the peace.
[/quote]
Archon knew, which is why he mediated it in the first place. As I recall it was because he was told by Polar.

I was in \m/ at the time and remember the IRC channel the night we peaced out. We were also aware of TOP hitting MK during the peace brokering if memory serves.

Edited by Earogema

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[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1322384573' post='2853581']
Seems NPO has a valid CB on most if not all of Karma, one thing is for sure the days of having a legit CB are far gone.
[/quote]

Heh, people like you crack me up. The only thing that makes a CB "legit" is if you have enough strength to make it so.

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[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1322381414' post='2853555']
Except they didn't and told MK. Actions speak louder than words after all. I know it's crazy, but it's entirely possible that Grub lied to a non-ally to get an ally into a much more powerful political position.

I mean the whole thing with you guys just flat out asking if you could attack an ally was stupid as hell. It would have been a masterstroke if Grub just admitted he lied instead of acting like a pompous windbag.
[/quote]

I don't know how something so blindingly simple gets overlooked so easily.

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[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1322384431' post='2853578']
Archon knew, which is why he mediated it in the first place. As I recall it was because he was told by Polar.

I was in \m/ at the time and remember the IRC channel the night we peaced out. We were also aware of TOP hitting MK during the peace brokering if memory serves.
[/quote]
I was in \m/ too bro. :awesome:
I'm not negating anything, i'm pretty sure everything you said there lines up with what i said. Well, besides who put leverage upon whom to mediate the peace, but that would just be speculation really. It was certainly known that the TOP front was going to explode in any case.
As to whether it was some insidious plan on behalf of Grub or just the dude flailing madly around is another question, but the answer to that is far more entertaining to ascertain when you have Grub and Crymson locking horns.

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Good Luck!

P.S. I truly appreciate the background given in the OP. Since I have yet to earn my PhD in CN-history it's nice to have the info B-)

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