A discussion on saved stats

[Centurius]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1322053343' post='2849667']
I wonder how much this sudden interest in bringing back saved stats have to do with the rumours that is going around about TOP preparing for another war? Surely this is something done for "greater good" of the community and not just to save the pixels of a "few" who would lose their pixels when war comes?
[/quote]

There are rumors of wars every few weeks, anyone who pays a little attention to CN politics knows most end up in a complete lack of action. If we based proposals on the political status of cn there would never be a change in cnrp.

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1322054180' post='2849671']
This discussion crops up, or tends to, before major wars.

As for you Centurius, if these saved stats aren't of any benefit for you, Triyun, or Cochin, I fail to see your interest.

I'm a smaller nation and I sure as hell don't want stats being saved.

So pardon me if I'm just a bit skeptical about your assertions that your warchest is big enough to repair all your blown up infra. Seems to me the only thing some of you bigger nations are doing is assuring your dominance through stats NO matter what happens in CN.

Lame.
[/quote]

I understand you've never seen a warchest before so I will not even try to explain how they do in fact achieve that at higher levels. Perhaps it doesn't benefit you at 4.8k infra but try rebuilding to 7k from scratch or even 6k.

As for my interest, part of my job as a GM is to come with proposals to improve CNRP, that is my interest in the matter.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Centurius

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1322056475' post='2849680']
As for my interest, part of my job as a GM is to come with proposals to improve CNRP, that is my interest in the matter.
[/quote]
Given the history of when this particular suggestion has come up despite the majority opposition to the idea, I would have to say that this particular proposal would not be in the interest of the general CNRP players, no matter what some people might say. I wish to again state that I am against any sort of saved stats except during the duration of an either an alliance IG war or a RP war.


However, Triyun has put out an interesting idea of using activity to be the basis for a nation's growth/rebuilding. This would certainly prevent instant rebuilding or some massive power growing out of nowhere solely on the basis of IG stats.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I have seen many hills and valleys while playing CNRP and often lament that as many times as I've been bashed in the game I've never really gotten to taste the top of a mountain in the roleplay except for when I have united others. Yet, I have never seen stats as the real delimiter on my or any other roleplayers potential. I did use saved stats, but only for a very short time and so I have a proposal for a saved stats program that is permitted, but only with an expiry period.. or a graduated degradation.

If a nation suffers severe adversity during an IG war, most of those wars will not last more than 6 months.. and after that it may be 6 months to a year for recovery if it is a severe world war. Given that is the worst that it gets.. my proposal is as follows:

[quote name="The Maelstrom of Dieing Nations"]
Saved stats will begin for a nation upon its player's request which includes a screenshot of the time frame to be preserved. For every month the nation remains under those statistics, it will lose 5% of the saved statistical level until those statistics match or are lessor then the actual IG stats of the nation.. at which point the nation's natural stats will kick in.
[/quote]

The rate of decay can be adjusted based on popular desire. It's wrong for a nation to maintain its stats in perpetuity when we're all bound to our in game statistics to some measure, but at the same time, it's wrong for IG wars to totally knock a nation off its rocker unless its player wants to in CNRP. The above rules will allow the player to RP the gradual weakening of their nation due to structural or economic issues instead of just saying "Oh, my nation fell apart" unless, of course.. they want to make a reason for such happening to occur for the sake of Drama.

I am against, 100% any limitations on growth not imposed by the players. If it is achieved IG, it is achievable in CNRP.

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1321953062' post='2848881']
I once again reiterate, if you lose stats in your CN nation deal with it. RP the changes to your nation and RP your way out. Even Mael continued RPing even while paying reps unlike several others who completely ran away from CNRP while their IG nations were knocked down and were bold enough to come back only when the reps stopped.
[/quote]

Mael formed the most powerful block on Bob in CNRP while only having 100 ns to his name.. until he tried to conquer the world and a few folks used it for a timely defection.. *eyes Cochin*.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Voodoo Nova]

Remove CN politics from the CNRP arguments please. They have no basis here.

Do saved stats help the entire community? Yes, because no one can say they aren't allowed to have them.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1322161060' post='2850515']
Remove CN politics from the CNRP arguments please. They have no basis here.
[/quote]
They kinda do. The whole reason for saved stats is because we're in alliances that go to war.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1322161060' post='2850515']
Remove CN politics from the CNRP arguments please. They have no basis here.

Do saved stats help the entire community? Yes, because no one can say they aren't allowed to have them.
[/quote]

If saved stats are really that good, do tell what is preventing a person from buying their full stock of navy in game, get the stats saved and then decommission them and continue to use that navy in RP?

Saved stats have been banned because of the lack of safeguards. What safeguards are being proposed now?

As regards politics, the timing is unfortunately too uncanny as yet another December war season is approaching. The common factors between the principal supporters arguing for bringing the saved stats back is quite convenient too.

[Triyun]

I think that one should have things taken into account such as in game wars and terms regarding navies and nukes. However absent those factors I don't think they should be saved, only infra and tech.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1322162070' post='2850530']
If saved stats are really that good, do tell what is preventing a person from buying their full stock of navy in game, get the stats saved and then decommission them and continue to use that navy in RP?

Saved stats have been banned because of the lack of safeguards. What safeguards are being proposed now?
[b]
As regards politics, the timing is unfortunately too uncanny as yet another December war season is approaching. The common factors between the principal supporters arguing for bringing the saved stats back is quite convenient too.[/b]
[/quote]

In CNRP, CN politics have no place in the argument. If you are going to accuse people of bias, then come out and say it in regards to CNRP. TOP, ODN, TLR, GPA, etc, do not exist in this area of the forums. Keep it that way.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Voodoo Nova

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1322162209' post='2850533']
I think that one should have things taken into account such as in game wars and terms regarding navies and nukes. However absent those factors I don't think they should be saved, only infra and tech.
[/quote]

The main purpose of infra in terms of CNRP is in terms of the size of army one can have. So are you saying that through the proposed system of saved stats the strengths of armies would be frozen and the navy and say air force would still have to depend upon IG stats on a day to day basis?

[Kankou]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1322161060' post='2850515']
Do saved stats help the entire community? Yes, because no one can say they aren't allowed to have them.
[/quote]
What kind of reasoning is that? I can't understand.

But anyway, I'm going to say this: Put up a poll and see the results. $%&@ all the arguments about whether this suggestion came out because of supposed wars in CN, if the players do not want it, then the suggestion shouldn't be implemented, even if that suggestion is the best choice.

[Centurius]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1322162418' post='2850539']
The main purpose of infra in terms of CNRP is in terms of the size of army one can have. So are you saying that through the proposed system of saved stats the strengths of armies would be frozen and the navy and say air force would still have to depend upon IG stats on a day to day basis?
[/quote]

That would be an option yes.


[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1322162592' post='2850540']
What kind of reasoning is that? I can't understand.

But anyway, I'm going to say this: Put up a poll and see the results. $%&@ all the arguments about whether this suggestion came out because of supposed wars in CN, if the players do not want it, then the suggestion shouldn't be implemented, even if that suggestion is the best choice.
[/quote]

I haven't put a poll up yet as alternatives are still coming up, when a single option rises above the others I will create a poll to see if the community wants it or not.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1322169005' post='2850597']
That would be an option yes.
[/quote]

And what would be the merit of such a change? Besides I am yet to be answered regarding this question of mine I had asked some days ago.

[quote][url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106762&view=findpost&p=2848881"]Now[/url] I would certainly like a system which promotes activity but how do you plan to do that. Some of the major dynamics of CNRP, Army, navy, airforce numbers are determined by the In game strength of the player's CN nation. If activity rather than CN stats is to determine the strength what is the benchmark? By your own example say nation A has an IG army strength corresponding to 800,000 and nation B has 300,000, do explain how with RP alone and without any changes to his IG nation nation B would be able to RP expansion of his army from 300,000 to be more than 800,000 ?[/quote]

[Triyun]

ICly, I would point to actual military history which enabled significant increases in the size of European armies as they moved towards the concept of a totally nation state. Industrialization, a system of mass participation, mass transit, and mass communication enabled this. Further the richer a state becomes on an individual per basis the greater it is able to afford military expenditure. This is because the state can tax working and middle classes at a higher rate than those who have subsistence living standards. All these factors can arise without a state becoming substantially bigger in game. Further I would also point out that as far as military innovation goes IRL, only a few states really substantively meet that catagory. In I would argue US, Russia, western Europe, Israel and beginning to be some Asian nations. However, nations like India, China, Japan, South Korea, all field substantially advanced armies which are built around foreign technology even with the domestic ability lacking (granted this may be somewhat unfair to japan).

So ICly I think all of this could be explainable.

The more difficult part of this equation is in my judgement how to quantify what constitutes acceptable RP. I think that one option is a verified we know it when we see it system which requires mutual consent of 100% of the GMs instead of just a majority. Further I think we can all agree that another definite thing is that things should not be exponentially increased in one swoop of an RP, but rather if done over time.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

No one has thoughts on my compromise plan that sponsors a gradual decay from a saved state?

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1322250417' post='2851091']
No one has thoughts on my compromise plan that sponsors a gradual decay from a saved state?
[/quote]
That already is the [i]de facto[/i] policy. A player is able to retain one's stats during the duration of the conflict, and afterwards would have to RP out the decline. The only possible difference would be that military strength is immediately hit.

[Triyun]

Yeah I oppose military taking an immediate hit. I think that if your getting nuked, your ships and planes shouldn't disappear if you can obviously rebuild them once you obviously can. Obviously you should be allowed to keep your nuclear deterrence while your firing them in game.

[TheShammySocialist]

Just to put my two cents in, since I've been quiet on this issue, my vote goes to not saving stats, I just don't think it is really needed. Given the fact that I've only been around for less than a year, I still feel like the community has gotten along fine without them in this time period. And if people are dedicated to this facet of Cybernations, they can rebuild their nations on here just like they rebuild them in-game. Nations have calamities and falls from grace all the time, there are ways of roleplaying it out, and roleplaying out their ascendance once again.

Although I do like your idea, Triyun, as activity [i]is[/i] a concern right now, implementing it is another whole battle in and of itself.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I wish I could be more active. Kind of why I've invited Sarah to lead the the French Waltz. Reality bites, but at least I thankfully have a job.. that's something a few people would really like to have right now and I pray for them daily and in gratitude for the simple fact I and my wife both have work.

Activity is definitely a concern. Maybe we should let the player decide and have the GMs hammer obvious abuses of stat preservation?

Edited November 28, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1322468708' post='2854689']
I wish I could be more active. Kind of why I've invited Sarah to lead the the French Waltz. Reality bites, but at least I thankfully have a job.. that's something a few people would really like to have right now and I pray for them daily and in gratitude for the simple fact I and my wife both have work.

Activity is definitely a concern. Maybe we should let the player decide and have the GMs hammer obvious abuses of stat preservation?
[/quote]

Activity is already decided in that case: After 25 days, you're wiped.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

That wasn't what I was referring to. I'm referring to Activity level as the quantity of content being put up and the quantity of players, not the number of days active or when people are eliminated from play.

Our problem is that as the game dwindles so will community and content. When it reaches a certain level, everything will screech to a halt. We do not want to have the CNRP community slip below critical mass.

I'd say there's about 3 or 4 people in CNRP that if we lost them, the whole thing would begin to fade because they keep things going. That's a fairly shallow bench.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Executive Minister]

Oh such a terrible burden it must be, to exist as one of the few lifelines CNRP relies for its very existence.

[Triyun]

It is

[Centurius]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1322792959' post='2858821']
It is
[/quote]

The responsibility is immense

[Executive Minister]

I tip my hat to your justified immodesty, Triyun.

[Captain Enema]

I used to think that it was the type of roleplay that was driving people off. By that I mean people getting frustrated with the massive nations and armies and nearly indecipherable gibberish of modern war.

Now that there is more character roleplay transpiring that sort of kills the notion that a different style of role play would increase activity. Seems to have stayed about the same from what I can tell, if not slightly less.

So if it isn't the stats..

If it isn't the character rp..

What is causing people to lose interest? I tend to think that people like to be entertained. Activity has always been higher when there are large blocs vying for control over Planet Steve. So... Not sure I'd ever be the one to say this.. but..

Make war accessible to everyone.

Make war more often..

Don't make war something that is always fatal to their nation.. that way they are more likely to fight..

Don't plan wars that require the complete destruction of another bloc.. that way the drama keeps on going.

Above all, keep the drama flowing. Makes for entertaining rp.

Also, give me my bread.. the mob hungers.