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A discussion on saved stats


Centurius

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I see now. When people said "Big Nations" they meant CNRP big nations, not CN big nations. So the point of Stats Saving is so that if you have a lot of land and suddenly no longer have it IG - you don't have to give it up ICly in CNRP? I think I understand now. I will keep my vote at a [b]Null Vote[/b] however it seems that this topic is heavily in the negation now.

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I would like to propose a alternative system. Personally I do believe that if you get rolled in game for reasons completely unrelated to CN RP it would be unfair for others to take advantage of that. (For the record I do believe that I said I favored bringing saved stats back when Kankou was getting hit at a time)

That said I also understand how some people feel that this favors the large, more specifically the large that play both CN and CN RP.

I would like to propose something else then.

First I think that we should have stats as the starting point of any nation, these stats are what you have in game at the time. But then I would also propose, something else.

You actually have to RP building up your nation gradually. And I think we should develop a system which rewards activity and does not grant super power status to people who only post every 25 days but happen to have a really old nation, that often times never gets hit.

This would mean that while you would have your initial stats as a base to start from, you could get overtaken by newer nations which actually RP themselves building up and put some effort into their nation. This would not be an overnight process, but it would have a definite effect on improving CN RP and rewarding those who are active. This would mean that say 100k nation which hasn't posted that much (say once ever 3 weeks), could eventually be overtaken by a 20k nation which puts a lot of effort into their nation and builds it up.

There would be some kinks to figure out with nukes and navy, but other than that the rules could be adjusted to accommodate this easily enough. I think it would also really offer a benefit for both large nations and small nations, as well as improve activity. I think both of these things are infinitely more desirable.

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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1321912782' post='2848327']
I would like to propose a alternative system. Personally I do believe that if you get rolled in game for reasons completely unrelated to CN RP it would be unfair for others to take advantage of that. (For the record I do believe that I said I favored bringing saved stats back when Kankou was getting hit at a time)

That said I also understand how some people feel that this favors the large, more specifically the large that play both CN and CN RP.

I would like to propose something else then.

First I think that we should have stats as the starting point of any nation, these stats are what you have in game at the time. But then I would also propose, something else.

You actually have to RP building up your nation gradually. And I think we should develop a system which rewards activity and does not grant super power status to people who only post every 25 days but happen to have a really old nation, that often times never gets hit.

This would mean that while you would have your initial stats as a base to start from, you could get overtaken by newer nations which actually RP themselves building up and put some effort into their nation. This would not be an overnight process, but it would have a definite effect on improving CN RP and rewarding those who are active. This would mean that say 100k nation which hasn't posted that much (say once ever 3 weeks), could eventually be overtaken by a 20k nation which puts a lot of effort into their nation and builds it up.

There would be some kinks to figure out with nukes and navy, but other than that the rules could be adjusted to accommodate this easily enough. I think it would also really offer a benefit for both large nations and small nations, as well as improve activity. I think both of these things are infinitely more desirable.
[/quote]

I like this proposal a lot actually.

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no saved stats, as I was told last time I got into a war, you deal with it, if anything gives you more ideas to RP.

after reading Triyun's idea, I would like to see more discussion in regards to your idea, one of the reasons for my lack of inspiration is I don't feel it really matters how much I do, someone with much larger ingame nation would easily defeat me in a RP war, changing the system to reward activity would be a great thing.

Edited by Mogar
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I am still against this. No saved stats what so ever. They are not needed, and were removed for a reason. The Community has survived and thrives, admittidly at varying levels of activity for the last 18 months, without them. KMM is right, he was raped in the wars, and he RP'd the reconstruction, as did Cochin and several others who were involved in the conflicts mentioned. Several have even rebuilt several times over due to their age.

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[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1321913651' post='2848337']
I am still against this. No saved stats what so ever. They are not needed, and were removed for a reason. The Community has survived and thrives, admittidly at varying levels of activity for the last 18 months, without them. KMM is right, he was raped in the wars, and he RP'd the reconstruction, as did Cochin and several others who were involved in the conflicts mentioned. Several have even rebuilt several times over due to their age.
[/quote]

I don't think you can really make this argument when you break it down. I say that as someone who got beat down a lot more than Cochin did (especially if you includes many months of reps which severely impedes national growth).

First the stats were removed to screw over Mael, they weren't removed for any reason other than that.

Thriving and surviving aren't the same thing. What I see today is bare minimal survival. I don't think its thriving at all.

I would say that each time you have a large scale beat down, the cost of rebuilding as well as the cost of building from the ground up back to the top becomes higher and higher longer and longer. I remember in Great War II I was in the Top 5% of nations, and got a half million in rebuilding aid. That was plenty for my nation after a pretty vicious fight. Today 500, 000 change in my daily bill is not really noticeable to me.

You can't really make the argument here that past and present are analogous here due to in game dynamics. On top of this the top bar will go higher by people who may not really participate in the full aspect of the game by simply sticking to a completely neutral alliance.

To give you an idea of the prohibitive gap three years ago this time:

Shan was: 3664 Tech 7999 Infra
I was: 2764 Tech 6266 Infra

Shan since has gotten his nation beaten down quite substantially

Presently we are:

Me: 9200 Tech 14000 Infra
Shan: 2700 Tech 6100 Infra

I do not think you can really make the argument that that is rebuilding.

Now in terms of absolute numbers can you approach a former level? Sure. But if most people are now above that level, in terms of actual real prestige, power, whatever you want to call it levels that absolute value means very little if anything.

Further I personally am of the opinion that you shouldn't have to make a choice between what alliance you are in (a community) and how whether or not your RPs get completely disrupted in CN RP. Nor should you really if you say take even a random nuke rogue in game, and somebody decides thats a great time to pearl harbor your navy, have when they attack you a deficit of whomever nuked your ships in game. That is currently my understanding of what the rules allow.

[quote]no saved stats, as I was told last time I got into a war, you deal with it, if anything gives you more ideas to RP.

after reading Triyun's idea, I would like to see more discussion in regards to your idea, one of the reasons for my lack of inspiration is I don't feel it really matters how much I do, someone with much larger ingame nation would easily defeat me in a RP war, changing the system to reward activity would be a great thing.[/quote]

I don't really buy the first notion that just because a rule is in place at one time, it can't be amended. I have always been in favor of amending that.

However expanding on the proposal, I do not yet have specifics as I'd like to see what others think. However, yes I agree that nations simply due to size in game should not be automatically advantaged. And at a certain point, I think it is fair to say no matter how much RP you put into it, you'll lose to what almost always will be both a numerically superior and technologically superior opponent. Especially if we account for the liberal use of lolnukes. This proposal would change this in some ways.

[quote]And how do you plan on measuring activity and converting into stats?[/quote]

Not sure specifics yet, but I think a keyboard pounding would be in order.

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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1321912782' post='2848327']
I would like to propose a alternative system. Personally I do believe that if you get rolled in game for reasons completely unrelated to CN RP it would be unfair for others to take advantage of that. (For the record I do believe that I said I favored bringing saved stats back when Kankou was getting hit at a time)[/quote]
Just for the record.... I'm not sure if a 12 hour war where I completely raped the three people coming at me, and actually come out stronger than before the war, be considered being hit. Also, where did you advocate that?


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1321912782' post='2848327']First I think that we should have stats as the starting point of any nation, these stats are what you have in game at the time.[/quote]
Not sure the merits of this particular part of the proposal.


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1321912782' post='2848327']You actually have to RP building up your nation gradually. And I think we should develop a system which rewards activity and does not grant super power status to people who only post every 25 days but happen to have a really old nation, that often times never gets hit.

This would mean that while you would have your initial stats as a base to start from, you could get overtaken by newer nations which actually RP themselves building up and put some effort into their nation. This would not be an overnight process, but it would have a definite effect on improving CN RP and rewarding those who are active. This would mean that say 100k nation which hasn't posted that much (say once ever 3 weeks), could eventually be overtaken by a 20k nation which puts a lot of effort into their nation and builds it up.

There would be some kinks to figure out with nukes and navy, but other than that the rules could be adjusted to accommodate this easily enough. I think it would also really offer a benefit for both large nations and small nations, as well as improve activity. I think both of these things are infinitely more desirable.[/quote]
Maybe a meeting between ourselves is in order, my dear Triyun :)

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I love how these stat saving discussions kick off right before a large "rumored" war that is about to blow up in CN.


:lol1:

Come on girls.. if you are so worried about getting thumped on by your neighbors because your CN nations is getting shot to pieces why not treat them better in CNRP?

It's easier for smaller nations to rebuild.. Which is the great equalizer. You larger nations get beat down.. it takes time.. A smaller nation like mine.. never really lost much to begin with.

So yeah.. no stat saving.. people just need to learn to treat people properly or deal with the consequences when the CN nukes start flying.

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I believe CNRP is a game that at the end of the days is based on the stats you have in the CN game. A complete dissociation between CNRP and CN would only make things messier and for no one's advantage. Is it unfair to a CNRPer if his nation got severely hit in a CN war? Yes. But that is the nature of the game. Deal with it.

Now I would certainly like a system which promotes activity but how do you plan to do that. Some of the major dynamics of CNRP, Army, navy, airforce numbers are determined by the In game strength of the player's CN nation. If activity rather than CN stats is to determine the strength what is the benchmark? By your own example say nation A has an IG army strength corresponding to 800,000 and nation B has 300,000, do explain how with RP alone and without any changes to his IG nation nation B would be able to RP expansion of his army from 300,000 to be more than 800,000 ?

Hell, players wont even then need nations in CN to be in CNRP!

From my perspective this is not a simple matter of rules adjustment, but a complete change of the very basis of CNRP. Now what great injustice prompts the proposal of such a momentous change?

I once again reiterate, if you lose stats in your CN nation deal with it. RP the changes to your nation and RP your way out. Even Mael continued RPing even while paying reps unlike several others who completely ran away from CNRP while their IG nations were knocked down and were bold enough to come back only when the reps stopped.

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[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1321933993' post='2848528']
I love how these stat saving discussions kick off right before a large "rumored" war that is about to blow up in CN.


:lol1:

Come on girls.. if you are so worried about getting thumped on by your neighbors because your CN nations is getting shot to pieces why not treat them better in CNRP?

It's easier for smaller nations to rebuild.. Which is the great equalizer. [b]You larger nations get beat down.. it takes time[/b].. A smaller nation like mine.. never really lost much to begin with.

So yeah.. no stat saving.. people just need to learn to treat people properly or deal with the consequences when the CN nukes start flying.
[/quote]


About 5 minutes actually depending on how fast I click the purchase infra button.

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[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1321965310' post='2848941']
Then why do we need saved stats if its so easy to rebuild?
[/quote]

Because it only is easy for nations like mine, Triyun's and cochin's who have saved up multi-billion dollar warchests and only collect taxes to increase that level. Lower and middle tier nations like yours however generally spent all their money on growing so they will have to save or sell tech to be able to properly rebuild.

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I'd say bring them back. Look, the only reason they were taken away before was because one or two players were in something like perma ZI and had been for over a year and were making these crazy technological advancements and new weapons on saved stats. I highly doubt that's going to be allowed to happen again. I'll say myself there have been times where I've been beaten to the ground and I've looked at my nation, and, as much as I love CNRP as this is the only thing keeping me around the game, I've wondered "is it worth it, again?" Another time through it and I'd say no. Saved stats would, however, keep me personally, around.

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How about nations that lock their stats see a gradual decrease in those saved stats, like you lose happiness in peacemode.

For every day you're locked you lose a certain precentage (0.5, 1, not a huge amount) of your stats. This would continue to decrease until you come out of lock.

This way people can't just stay locked forever and not bother rebuilding their nation and they also don't get a single massive stat decrease, it's a more gradual one.

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I wonder how much this sudden interest in bringing back saved stats have to do with the rumours that is going around about TOP preparing for another war? Surely this is something done for "greater good" of the community and not just to save the pixels of a "few" who would lose their pixels when war comes?

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[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1322053343' post='2849667']
I wonder how much this sudden interest in bringing back saved stats have to do with the rumours that is going around about TOP preparing for another war? Surely this is something done for "greater good" of the community and not just to save the pixels of a "few" who would lose their pixels when war comes?
[/quote]

This discussion crops up, or tends to, before major wars.

As for you Centurius, if these saved stats aren't of any benefit for you, Triyun, or Cochin, I fail to see your interest.

I'm a smaller nation and I sure as hell don't want stats being saved.

So pardon me if I'm just a bit skeptical about your assertions that your warchest is big enough to repair all your blown up infra. Seems to me the only thing some of you bigger nations are doing is assuring your dominance through stats NO matter what happens in CN.

Lame.

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