Official announcement from the Legion

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1320171714' post='2836560']
Again, that has nothing to do with what I actually stated, nor does it refute anything. So far the only thing respectable done by Tetris/NSO is the fact that both are willing to burn for their allies. Other than that, both ya'lls alliances are utterly worthless.
[/quote]

I seem to remember burning for our smaller allies in a certain war against a certain beer-swilling alliance until they got peace without being asked.

Tetris is free to leave.

Before you cite a certain war with a certain "cold" alliance, they have actually, you know, put up a good fight.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1320171714' post='2836560']
Again, that has nothing to do with what I actually stated, nor does it refute anything. So far the only thing respectable done by Tetris/NSO is the fact that both are willing to burn for their allies. Other than that, both ya'lls alliances are utterly worthless.
[/quote]
Which is pretty funny considering you joined the Legion just to get a shot at us. So by some personal measure, you must think that we are worth enough that you want to do whatever you can to ensure we lose on the battlefield.

[quote]And you would be wrong. NSO still DoWed Legion regardless of what you state. That would not change simply because Tetris leaves the field. So you can attempt to spin it however way you wish but it does not make what you state any less false.[/quote]The second the Legion's war with Tetris ends, we wouldnt have any more reason to fight. So if the Legion continues fighting us, it's pretty clear that they're doing it to hit us exclusively, rather than as a continuation of their fighting with the Tetris.

So...how would I be wrong? Really? Just saying "UR WRONG" doesn't make me wrong. If you're going to state something as an irrefutable fact, you better be prepared to back it up.

[quote]Legion is giving a perfectly reasonable term for surrender. NSO is not willing to accept said term. Yet you attempt to blame Legion for something NSO is unwilling to do. Again, spin it however way you want but it is NSO that is holding up the war, not Legion. Tetris are staying in because NSO won't admit defeat and that is simple fact. So yes, it is NSO's fault. [/quote]

Hrm. I see. So the Legion made the war about us because the NSO refused to surrender to the Legion.

Yes, that makes perfect sense, Doch. I can totally see how you're not even remotely explaining things, and just arguing on about how terrible we are regardless of who and what comments you're replying to.

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320171869' post='2836562']
So their hubris is preventing them from surrendering?
[/quote]
I like how you accuse others of having hubris when your collective response to people distrusting your alliance after a massive series of betrayals is to grow a martyr complex. It's really, really, [i]really[/i] funny.

Edited November 1, 2011 by TehChron

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320171869' post='2836562']
So their hubris is preventing them from surrendering?
[/quote]
We would rather keep fighting than accept their demands. We don't believe they are in the position to be making such demands. Make of that what you will.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1320172106' post='2836566']
We would rather keep fighting than accept their demands. We don't believe they are in the position to be making such demands. Make of that what you will.
[/quote]Are you NSO government?

[magicninja]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320171869' post='2836562']
So their hubris is preventing them from surrendering?
[/quote]

I believe that is part of it yes. The bigger part is that it is actually advantageous for them to do so for the reasons I've already outlined. Legion asked for the admission...good for them but they won't get it. They need to take what victory they can now before that time has passed and that window is getting smaller with every post in this thread.

[Sabcat]

If I was Legion gov (which I'm not) I'd give them white peace just to shut them up. This has become a farce, the stats speak for themselves. The attempt to start a larger war / get Polar (see the logs I posted in world affairs) Varianz's supply of screen shots, it's all pathetic and has become even more pathetic in the last few days. I personally can't bring myself to care what NSO say.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320172206' post='2836567']
Are you NSO government?
[/quote]
No.

here are some more words

[TehChron]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320172206' post='2836567']
Are you NSO government?
[/quote]
Are you going to do anything other cry victim whenever people think about liking us more than they do you?

Feel free to interject when you have something to contribute other than a stunning display of hypocrisy, FF.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1320172302' post='2836570']
If I was Legion gov (which I'm not) I'd give them white peace just to shut them up. This has become a farce, the stats speak for themselves. The attempt to start a larger war / get Polar (see the logs I posted in world affairs) Varianz's supply of screen shots, it's all pathetic and has become even more pathetic in the last few days. I personally can't bring myself to care what NSO say.
[/quote]

mind posting them again? i can't seem to find said logs

[TehChron]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1320172726' post='2836573']
mind posting them again? i can't seem to find said logs
[/quote]
They're the ones with NsO and stuff from a couple of weeks ago.

It's quite the random reference on his part.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1320172262' post='2836569']I believe that is part of it yes. The bigger part is that it is actually advantageous for them to do so for the reasons I've already outlined. Legion asked for the admission...good for them but they won't get it. They need to take what victory they can now before that time has passed and that window is getting smaller with every post in this thread.[/quote]Who is "them" in your second sentence? I'm assuming the subject in the first is NSO and I know the subject of the third is Legion. So the lack of clarity about the subject in the second could implicitly lend itself to either alliance. If you could clarify I'll happily offer a response.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1320172338' post='2836571']No.here are some more words[/quote]Okay.

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320172362' post='2836572']Are you going to do anything other cry victim whenever people think about liking us more than they do you? Feel free to interject when you have something to contribute other than a stunning display of hypocrisy, FF.[/quote]Where precisely did I play a "victim" card? All I've done is offer observations about the nature of the conflict between NSO and Legion, not try to make this thread about myself.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Fallen Fool

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1320171644' post='2836559']
Are you saying Legion didn't attack Tetris?[/quote]

Since the point was missed I suppose...

Firing the first shot doesn't necessarily make you the aggressor, neither here or "elsewhere". It is a question of provocation. A war declaration involving evidence of spying has traditionally been seen as a justifiable reaction to provocation, not an aggressive action. There are other forms of provocation that are recognized as well, but the point is that it is inappropriate to call Legion the aggressor, unless you are trying to build a case against Legion that will provide other alliances with a justification for entering a war in which they have no business being involved in.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320172908' post='2836576']
Who is "them" in your second sentence? I'm assuming the subject in the first is NSO and I know the subject of the third is Legion. So the lack of clarity about the subject in the second could implicitly lend itself to either alliance. If you could clarify I'll happily offer a response. [/quote]
It's NSO.

[quote]Okay.[/quote]
If you want our official position you'll probably have better luck on IRC.

[TehChron]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1320173085' post='2836578']
Since the point was missed I suppose...

Firing the first shot doesn't necessarily make you the aggressor, neither here or "elsewhere". It is a question of provocation. A war declaration involving evidence of spying has traditionally been seen as a justifiable reaction to provocation, not an aggressive action. There are other forms of provocation that are recognized as well, but the point is that it is inappropriate to call Legion the aggressor, unless you are trying to build a case against Legion that will provide other alliances with a justification for entering a war in which they have no business being involved in.
[/quote]When did the Legion obtain evidence of Tetris spying?

Since, to my limited knowledge, the Legion never did, that makes your entire point kind of moot, you know?

[magicninja]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320172908' post='2836576']
Who is "them" in your second sentence? I'm assuming the subject in the first is NSO and I know the subject of the third is Legion. So the lack of clarity about the subject in the second could implicitly lend itself to either alliance. If you could clarify I'll happily offer a response.

Okay.

Where precisely did I play a "victim" card? All I've done is offer observations about the nature of the conflict between NSO and Legion, not try to make this thread about myself.
[/quote]

Them is NSO. I believe they gain an advantage by not accepting Legion's terms.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1320151478' post='2836407']
They haven't earned enough of a victory to stand over top of us and piss on us without a foot to come up the side of their head. There's still plenty of fight in us, we are not defeated. Pride be damned, we just won't lie to 'save our skin'. We won't admit defeat when we aren't truly defeated.
[/quote]


[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320172206' post='2836567']
Are you NSO government?
[/quote]

He is not, but I am.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320171514' post='2836556']

Well, there was also the thing about this treaty we have together...Unless you're saying MDPs are suddenly optional now. Which is news to me, quite frankly.[/quote]

There is an ODN joke, really a dozen really, that could be inserted here but I will not stray that far off the topic...

Not what I said. What I said was that you had a choice whether or not to defend an ally that screwed up. You chose to defend them. I was not faulting on that point, but like all decisions, it has consequences, sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes, both.

[quote]That would be correct if Tetris hadnt attempted to resolve the situation via Diplomacy, if the Legion hadn't waited nearly a week to declare (when VE had downgraded it's treaty with them), and if the Legion had actually bothered to discover who the leak in their alliance was instead of look for the easiest scapegoat to hit at the first opportunity.[/quote]

If Tetris wasn't busy provoking Legion in the first place, the current war would not have happened. Assign blame where it belongs. Actually, Legion waiting for the downgrade almost sounds like actual strategy.

[quote]Sure we would. Since Tetris are pretty good allies. That you're implying that we are, in any way, keeping Tetris under some kind of threat of retaliation should they peace out before us is beyond laughable. [/quote]

Then if they do, you're good with that...I'm sure that comes as something noteworthy to them.

[quote]Just because you can't fathom the idea of people doing right by their friends, does not mean others are incapable of that, you know? Keep it up, by the way, this is fun.[/quote]

The day you can lecture me on doing right by friends is the day that Valhalla and IRON stop arguing over who is going to stay longer on the battlefield for the other...in other words, never.

[Bob Janova]

Who is 'aggressive' is, as already pointed out, [i]irrelevant[/i]. We're not talking about justification for reparations or anything where that would matter.

Magicninja, you're argument seems to be 'they're stubborn gits so let them have their way'. That's not really much of an argument. Calling in allies at such a late stage would be as big a hit to their pride as just admitting defeat.

The ideal situation would be for Tetris to take NSO on their word of 'we'd be happy for you to peace out' and for NSO to continue being ridiculous about accepting defeat until they're ground into dust and we never have to listen to them again. But that's just me.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1320173835' post='2836591']
There is an ODN joke, really a dozen really, that could be inserted here but I will not stray that far off the topic...

Not what I said. What I said was that you had a choice whether or not to defend an ally that screwed up. You chose to defend them. I was not faulting on that point, but like all decisions, it has consequences, sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes, both.[/quote]
And what Chron said is that the M in MDP stands for mutual, which would imply that we didn't have a choice...

[quote]The day you can lecture me on doing right by friends is the day that Valhalla and IRON stop arguing over who is going to stay longer on the battlefield for the other...in other words, never.[/quote]
Well, I seem to remember some \m/ members who weren't too happy. :>

[TehChron]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1320173835' post='2836591']
There is an ODN joke, really a dozen really, that could be inserted here but I will not stray that far off the topic...

Not what I said. What I said was that you had a choice whether or not to defend an ally that screwed up. You chose to defend them. I was not faulting on that point, but like all decisions, it has consequences, sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes, both.[/quote]
[quote]You made the decision to support Tetris. That much is understandable in a way, since you helped put them in the mess they are in. [/quote]You certainly implied it as if it were some kind of negative action on our part. But I'll leave it at that.


[quote]If Tetris wasn't busy provoking Legion in the first place, the current war would not have happened. Assign blame where it belongs. Actually, Legion waiting for the downgrade almost sounds like actual strategy.
[/quote]Everyone and their mother has provoked the Legion for years. What's unusual is that the Legion actually did something about it, when the NSO did something far more blatant just a few months ago and the Legion did nothing in response.


[quote]Then if they do, you're good with that...I'm sure that comes as something noteworthy to them.[/quote]Quit being obtuse, Hal.



[quote]The day you can lecture me on doing right by friends is the day that Valhalla and IRON stop arguing over who is going to stay longer on the battlefield for the other...in other words, never.
[/quote]The day you can back up either one of your claims, the first of us being fair weather friends, and the second being that youre any better, I freely invite for you to prove them both. So lecture away, Hal.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320172897' post='2836575']
They're the ones with NsO and stuff from a couple of weeks ago.

It's quite the random reference on his part.
[/quote]

actually just read the logs, it was about you guys, Tetris and NsO basically plotting for the war to expand before Legion had even declared on you. plotting on getting GATO/NSO/IAA and chaining others onto your side like NPO and TPF

was actually a nice read

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320172102' post='2836565']
Which is pretty funny considering you joined the Legion just to get a shot at us. So by some personal measure, you must think that we are worth enough that you want to do whatever you can to ensure we lose on the battlefield.[/quote]

So by that measure, NSO has always thought Legion was a worthwhile alliance eh? Kind of detracts from what ya'll have stated in the past.

[quote]The second the Legion's war with Tetris ends, we wouldnt have any more reason to fight. So if the Legion continues fighting us, it's pretty clear that they're doing it to hit us exclusively, rather than as a continuation of their fighting with the Tetris.

So...how would I be wrong? Really? Just saying "UR WRONG" doesn't make me wrong. If you're going to state something as an irrefutable fact, you better be prepared to back it up.[/quote]

Actually, the second Tetris leaves, nothing changes. NSO is still the one refusing to surrender to Legion. That does not mean Legion is trying to hit just NSO, it means that Legion will not accept white peace with NSO. Nothing more, nothing less. I have backed up what I stated. You are the one who has come here spewing crap and trying to spin !@#$ left, right, and center without even attempting to back anything up.



[quote]Hrm. I see. So the Legion made the war about us because the NSO refused to surrender to the Legion.

Yes, that makes perfect sense, Doch. I can totally see how you're not even remotely explaining things, and just arguing on about how terrible we are regardless of who and what comments you're replying to.[/quote]

Okay, do I really need to break this down for ya? Apparently so:

1) Legion states NSO must admit defeat to get peace
2) NSO refuses to admit defeat and counters with white peace
3) Legion refuses the white peace offer

I would say that ya'll made this war about yourselves, not Legion. Legion went in with what they believe is a reasonable offer and NSO refused. NSO countered with what ya'll believe is a reasonable offer and Legion refused.

So yes, what I stated makes perfect sense. What you are stating though makes no sense except as an obvious PR attempt. So at least you seem to care about PR, regardless of how NSO feels.

[GoddessOfLinn]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1320151478' post='2836407']
We won't admit defeat when we aren't truly defeated.
[/quote]

That is true, you have one 'weppon' left! and that is the threat of bringing in ROK.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1320173969' post='2836595']
Who is 'aggressive' is, as already pointed out, [i]irrelevant[/i]. We're not talking about justification for reparations or anything where that would matter.

Magicninja, you're argument seems to be 'they're stubborn gits so let them have their way'. That's not really much of an argument. Calling in allies at such a late stage would be as big a hit to their pride as just admitting defeat.

The ideal situation would be for Tetris to take NSO on their word of 'we'd be happy for you to peace out' and for NSO to continue being ridiculous about accepting defeat until they're ground into dust and we never have to listen to them again. But that's just me.
[/quote]

Kind of I guess, but it's more to the point that NSO actually is in a position to be stubborn about it. Legion may not want to view it that way but they need to take it under consideration.

As for calling in allies, I think NSO would much rather have an aided victory than have to admit defeat to Legion.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1320174453' post='2836601']
actually just read the logs, it was about you guys, Tetris and NsO basically plotting for the war to expand before Legion had even declared on you. plotting on getting GATO/NSO/IAA and chaining others onto your side like NPO and TPF

was actually a nice read
[/quote]
NSO: so good we can chain in and aid ourselves in our own war.