Official announcement from the Legion

[TehChron]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1320167516' post='2836516']
Declaring war on another alliance for whatever the reason has always been viewed as an aggressive action on this planet. So I have no idea why you're trying to say your in a defensive war since no one has declared on you
[/quote]
No it hasn't.

At least know what you're talking about when you're making an argument. Either that or quit making random comments.

[quote]If that was the case then no global wars would have occured ever due to in your eyes MDP's only work at the start of the conflict. [/quote]That you can't reconcile the facts of the matter with the glaringly obvious answer is indicative of my above point:

You don't know what you're talking about.

Edited November 1, 2011 by TehChron

[Banedon]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1320166127' post='2836498']
We declared in defense of our ally, thus putting us on the defensive side.

And why should we give you anything?
[/quote]

Your ally transgressed upon our sovereignty, we responded. In our eyes, that makes your war aggressive, not defensive. However that's not the point.

NSO don't have to give Legion anything. It would just be extremely wise of you to accept reality. If you don't, we'll just keep grinding away until you finally fact facts, or there's nothing left to grind.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Banedon

[TehChron]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1320167723' post='2836520']
Your ally transgressed upon our sovereignty, we responded. In our eyes, that makes your war aggressive, not defensive. However that's not the point.

NSO don't have to give Legion anything. It would just be extremely wise of you to accept reality. If you don't, we'll just keep grinding away until you finally fact facts, or there's nothing left to grind.
[/quote]
Thank you kindly for the offer.

But why must Tetris suffer over your petty grudge towards us? You know, the one that you all used Tetris as a stepping stone to act upon, when months ago you lacked the nerve to do so?

Let them have white peace, and Legion can have it's war to (attempt to) grind us into nonexistence.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1320167723' post='2836520']
Your ally transgressed upon our sovereignty, we responded. In our eyes, that makes your war aggressive, not defensive. However that's not the point.

NSO don't have to give Legion anything. It would just be extremely wise of you to accept reality. If you don't, we'll just keep grinding away until you finally fact facts, or there's nothing left to grind.
[/quote]
Reality can change pretty quickly :>

By the way, you're going to have a hard time cowing us with your threats of eternal war.

[Lincongrad]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320167905' post='2836522']
Thank you kindly for the offer.

But why must Tetris suffer over your petty grudge towards us? You know, the one that you all used Tetris as a stepping stone to act upon, when months ago you lacked the nerve to do so?

Let them have white peace, and Legion can have it's war to (attempt to) grind us into nonexistence.
[/quote]

As far as I know, Tetris is welcome to exit the conflict at any time with a simple admission of defeat. Same as you. There is no need for them to suffer.

Admittedly I'm not gov, though.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1320168069' post='2836527']
As far as I know, Tetris is welcome to exit the conflict at any time with a simple admission of defeat. Same as you. There is no need for them to suffer.

Admittedly I'm not gov, though.
[/quote]
I hope that your government is sincere with that offer. I would hate for you to be holding innocent parties at eternal war just because we refuse to surrender before we've lost.

[the rebel]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320167598' post='2836517']
You don't know what you're talking about.[/quote]

Global wars start through the chaining in of Military Defense Pacts on [b]both sides.[/b] So if what you said was true then only the alliance that was first attacked can bring in alliances through MDP's and no one else... Which is false, so maybe you dont know what you're on about with all the spinning you're doing.

[TehChron]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1320168346' post='2836532']
Global wars start through the chaining in of Military Defense Pacts on [b]both sides.[/b] So if what you said was true then only the alliance that was first attacked can bring in alliances through MDP's and no one else... Which is false, so maybe you dont know what you're on about with all the spinning you're doing.
[/quote]
[b]Quote me saying that, then.[/b]

All I said was that we were using our MDP to defend an ally, therefore it's a defensive action. The same is true for all MDP activations.

By all means, show this wonderful fallacy of mine in all it's glory. Unless you're being obtuse, in which case, don't. The spin game is fun, after all, and there'd be no point in having spinning ability if I didn't have any opponents to test them out against.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320164019' post='2836490']
If Tetris is ready to leave, then let them. I have no issue with them peacing out.

All that'll be left is an aggressive war being fought against the Sith by the Legion. No need to make it a packaged deal.
[/quote]

NSO DoWed Legion, not the other way around, so how in the hell would this war somehow become Legion having aggressively attacked NSO? Legion attacked Tetris and NSO attacked Legion to defend Tetris. Should Tetris leave the battlefield (though I doubt they will from the sounds of it), then the basis of this war is gone, but it would still remain NSO having attacked Legion.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320168189' post='2836528']
I hope that your government is sincere with that offer. I would hate for you to be holding innocent parties at eternal war just because we refuse to surrender before we've lost.
[/quote]

Talk about PR.... Even Tetris has stated they have been given terms but won't leave due to NSO, not Legion, but NSO. I repeat, Tetris is staying on the battlefield currently because of NSO and no one else.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1320168677' post='2836537']
NSO DoWed Legion, not the other way around, so how in the hell would this war somehow become Legion having aggressively attacked NSO? Legion attacked Tetris and NSO attacked Legion to defend Tetris. Should Tetris leave the battlefield (though I doubt they will from the sounds of it), then the basis of this war is gone, but it would still remain NSO having attacked Legion.
[/quote]
NSO defended an ally against the Legion's aggressive declaration. There were no attempts at diplomatic resolution, even when Tetris' government attempted to do so. Whether or not it was unwarranted is neither here nor there, the fact remains that the Legion declared war on the basis of someone humiliating them off the grapevine.

Unless you're saying Tetris didnt need the help to protect itself against the Legion's attack, it's pretty clearly a defensive reaction on the Sith's part. Therefore, keeping us at war when our obligation to fight has run out makes the war yet another aggressive one on the Legion's part. That's all it is.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1320168762' post='2836538']
Talk about PR.... Even Tetris has stated they have been given terms but won't leave due to NSO, not Legion, but NSO. I repeat, Tetris is staying on the battlefield currently because of NSO and no one else.
[/quote]
Oh, I didn't know that we were holding a gun to their heads.

We're pretty terrible allies then. Sorry, Tetris!

Edited November 1, 2011 by TehChron

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320168889' post='2836539']
NSO defended an ally against the Legion's aggressive declaration. There were no attempts at diplomatic resolution, even when Tetris' government attempted to do so. Whether or not it was unwarranted is neither here nor there, the fact remains that the Legion declared war on the basis of someone humiliating them off the grapevine.

Unless you're saying Tetris didnt need the help to protect itself against the Legion's attack, it's pretty clearly a defensive reaction on the Sith's part. Therefore, keeping us at war when our obligation to fight has run out makes the war yet another aggressive one on the Legion's part. That's all it is.


Oh, I didn't know that we were holding a gun to their heads.

We're pretty terrible allies then. Sorry, Tetris!
[/quote]

On the first point- I stated you attacked Legion to defend Tetris, but NSO was the alliance who attacked Legion. So your claims that Legion somehow aggressively attacked NSO is false. Legion has given NSO a single term. Not reps, or anything like that but simply admit defeat. That is not some horrible and draconic term such as demanding half of NSO's remaining tech or whatnot. NSO is the one choosing to stay on the battlefield because ya'll do not want to admit defeat. So, no, Legion is not keeping NSO on the battlefield, that again, is just NSO. I understand that ya'll have been attempting to shift the blame for this whole war onto others, whether it is IAA/BTA or now, Legion but you should really learn to accept what NSO is fully responsible for.

On the second point- Again, never stated that either. Simply stated that it is fact that Tetris is still currently in this war because of NSO not wanting to admit defeat to get peace. That is fact. You can go all sarcastic as you want but that is simple fact. Instead of being sarcastic, you should take the time to thank Tetris for being stalwart allies who don't leave their friends alone on the battlefield.

[the rebel]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320168645' post='2836536']
All I said was that we were using our MDP to defend an ally, therefore it's a defensive action. The same is true for all MDP activations.[/quote]

You took an aggressive action by declaring war to defend an ally. We can go around in nice circles all day with this.

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320168889' post='2836539']
Therefore, keeping us at war when our obligation to fight has run out makes the war yet another aggressive one on the Legion's part. That's all it is.[/quote]

Legion isn't keeping you at war, you're through not accepting a peace offer which is basically on the same lines as white peace with just afew more words added.

[TehChron]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1320169466' post='2836544']
You took an aggressive action by declaring war to defend an ally. We can go around in nice circles all day with this.[/quote]So whatever happened to this?

[quote]Global wars start through the chaining in of Military Defense Pacts on both sides. So if what you said was true then only the alliance that was first attacked can bring in alliances through MDP's and no one else... Which is false, so maybe you dont know what you're on about with all the spinning you're doing.
[/quote]
Weren't you supposed to demonstrate how I said that at any point? Well, being obtuse works too, since it allows us to "go in nice circles all day with this", which is fun in it's own right.

[quote]Legion isn't keeping you at war, you're through not accepting a peace offer which is basically on the same lines as white peace with just afew more words added.
[/quote]
Legion can simply declare an end to hostilities at any point, after all, they're "winning", right? So they don't really need us to acknowledge a thing, right? "Facts" and whatnot.

[quote]On the first point- I stated you attacked Legion to defend Tetris, but NSO was the alliance who attacked Legion. So your claims that Legion somehow aggressively attacked NSO is false. [/quote]Sorry, Doch, what I'm saying is that [i]if Legion were to peace out Tetris, yet still fight us, the moment that the first one of their members did any damage to a member of the NSO would constitute an aggressive act of war on their part.[/i] When Tetris has been peaced out, the New Sith Order will no longer have anyone to defend. Therefore, we wouldn't be needing to honor our treaty with them in fighting the Legion. The Legion is free to reciprocate, but I believe the New Sith Order will be fine with a simple peacing out once the war with Tetris is completed.

[quote]On the second point- Again, never stated that either. Simply stated that it is fact that Tetris is still currently in this war because of NSO not wanting to admit defeat to get peace. That is fact. You can go all sarcastic as you want but that is simple fact. Instead of being sarcastic, you should take the time to thank Tetris for being stalwart allies who don't leave their friends alone on the battlefield.[/quote]

You and others implied that mightily with all that talk of us keeping Tetris "on the cross" with us, or whatever the terminology used was. And even taking into account that Tetris is still fighting because we are (great guys, those), that doesn't really mean it's our fault.

All that means is that Tetris are !@#$@#$ great allies that don't want to leave a friend on the battlefield. Quit trying to make this about the NSO having some kind of martyr complex, when everyone and their mother knows that it's just because we refuse to admit defeat to a terrible alliance like the Legion. If the Legion were so magnanimous, then they'd just white peace with us as well, so that way Tetris can get out from under fire.

If I remember correctly, the ones that made this war about the NSO was the Legion. And the Legion started it by attacking Tetris in the first place. So, in all seriousness, how is any of this the fault of the New Sith Order, again?

[magicninja]

Well hell....maybe you are all right because NSO getting down on it's knees and admitting a defeat is not at all embarrassing to an alliance of NSOs pride.....and hey, maybe if they don't admit to it NSO's allies will just let you grind them to nothing.....and if this goes on for a few more weeks (hell, I think you lose this one if you do it now) people won't think you gave in and caved when you finally give white peace....

These are basically your best hopes Legion....now tell me and be real honest (not only with us here but yourselves), are any of these all that likely to actually happen?

Exactly. I can't believe you would get caught up in a few words when most would have given you the victory, stated..or not. That you would ruin the best thing to happen to you in years for something so trivial and ultimately meaningless in the big picture is !@#$@#$ mind-boggling.

You reap what you sow...best of luck getting that admission......

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320168889' post='2836539']
NSO defended an ally against the Legion's aggressive declaration.[/quote]

Wrong already, that's simple NSO propaganda, but continuing...

[quote]There were no attempts at diplomatic resolution, even when Tetris' government attempted to do so. Whether or not it was unwarranted is neither here nor there, the fact remains that the Legion declared war on the basis of someone humiliating them off the grapevine. [/quote]

I can't think of a single alliance worth mentioning that would have done anything but declare war given a free shot at Tetris. Very few who would back down even in the face of other alliances coming to Tetris' aid. Make up your mind. Legion is WAE because they always backdown, or Legion is WAE because they are too aggressive. You can't have both.

[quote]Unless you're saying Tetris didnt need the help to protect itself against the Legion's attack, it's pretty clearly a defensive reaction on the Sith's part. Therefore, keeping us at war when our obligation to fight has run out makes the war yet another aggressive one on the Legion's part. That's all it is.[/quote]

So much spinning, I'm dizzy.

You made the decision to support Tetris. That much is understandable in a way, since you helped put them in the mess they are in. Fair enough. But Legion's response was made as a result of [i]provocations made by Tetris[/i]. It is [b]not[/b] by definition an aggressive act, since Legion was [i]justifiably reacting[/i] to that provocation, and did not pick out Tetris to shoot at for lulz or for unjustifiable reasons.

[quote]Oh, I didn't know that we were holding a gun to their heads.
We're pretty terrible allies then. Sorry, Tetris![/quote]

Given that you would never, ever let them forget leaving the battlefield without you much as you never, ever let Legion forget about its previous shortcomings, this is laughable. Actually, Tetris should cancel the treaty today and be done with you, but I know that's not how they roll. They are in their own way honorable, even if they did things that brought them to the point of war and should apologize for them.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320170217' post='2836547']
Sorry, Doch, what I'm saying is that [i]if Legion were to peace out Tetris, yet still fight us, the moment that the first one of their members did any damage to a member of the NSO would constitute an aggressive act of war on their part.[/i] When Tetris has been peaced out, the New Sith Order will no longer have anyone to defend. Therefore, we wouldn't be needing to honor our treaty with them in fighting the Legion. The Legion is free to reciprocate, but I believe the New Sith Order will be fine with a simple peacing out once the war with Tetris is completed.[/quote]

And you would be wrong. NSO still DoWed Legion regardless of what you state. That would not change simply because Tetris leaves the field. So you can attempt to spin it however way you wish but it does not make what you state any less false.

[quote]You and others implied that mightily with all that talk of us keeping Tetris "on the cross" with us, or whatever the terminology used was. And even taking into account that Tetris is still fighting because we are (great guys, those), that doesn't really mean it's our fault.

All that means is that Tetris are !@#$@#$ great allies that don't want to leave a friend on the battlefield. Quit trying to make this about the NSO having some kind of martyr complex, when everyone and their mother knows that it's just because we refuse to admit defeat to a terrible alliance like the Legion. If the Legion were so magnanimous, then they'd just white peace with us as well, so that way Tetris can get out from under fire.

If I remember correctly, the ones that made this war about the NSO was the Legion. And the Legion started it by attacking Tetris in the first place. So, in all seriousness, how is any of this the fault of the New Sith Order, again?
[/quote]


Legion is giving a perfectly reasonable term for surrender. NSO is not willing to accept said term. Yet you attempt to blame Legion for something NSO is unwilling to do. Again, spin it however way you want but it is NSO that is holding up the war, not Legion. Tetris are staying in because NSO won't admit defeat and that is simple fact. So yes, it is NSO's fault.

If you want me to be honest, I believe Legion should simply give ya'll white peace. They won this war regardless of whether NSO admits it or spins it into some sort of victory for NSO. I do honestly believe Legion will lose this war if they don't get their heads out of their asses because RoK will most likely enter sooner or later and then Legion will actually be screwed.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1320170463' post='2836549']Well hell....maybe you are all right because NSO getting down on it's knees and admitting a defeat is not at all embarrassing to an alliance of NSOs pride.....and hey, maybe if they don't admit to it NSO's allies will just let you grind them to nothing.....and if this goes on for a few more weeks (hell, I think you lose this one if you do it now) people won't think you gave in and caved when you finally give white peace....These are basically your best hopes Legion....now tell me and be real honest (not only with us here but yourselves), are any of these all that likely to actually happen? Exactly. I can't believe you would get caught up in a few words when most would have given you the victory, stated..or not. That you would ruin the best thing to happen to you in years for something so trivial and ultimately meaningless in the big picture is !@#$@#$ mind-boggling. You reap what you sow...best of luck getting that admission.....[/quote]If it's so trivial and meaningless why precisely aren't NSO just copping to it for the sake of peace?

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320171183' post='2836552']
If it's so trivial and meaningless why precisely aren't NSO just copping to it for the sake of peace?
[/quote]
Why should we have to?

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1320168346' post='2836532']
Global wars start through the chaining in of Military Defense Pacts on [b]both sides.[/b] So if what you said was true then only the alliance that was first attacked can bring in alliances through MDP's and no one else... Which is false, so maybe you dont know what you're on about with all the spinning you're doing.
[/quote]

Just want to interject here, We didn't come in on a chain. That is all.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1320168762' post='2836538']
Talk about PR.... Even Tetris has stated they have been given terms but won't leave due to NSO, not Legion, but NSO. I repeat, Tetris is staying on the battlefield currently because of NSO and no one else.
[/quote]

Huh, seems Tetris has the same concept of allies that we do.....interesting.

[TehChron]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1320170829' post='2836550']
Wrong already, that's simple NSO propaganda, but continuing...
[/quote] Of course, of course, Tetris actually spied on the Legion, and declared war, and all that good stuff. We're such blatant liars, Hal.

[quote]
I can't think of a single alliance worth mentioning that would have done anything but declare war given a free shot at Tetris. Very few who would back down even in the face of other alliances coming to Tetris' aid. Make up your mind. Legion is WAE because they always backdown, or Legion is WAE because they are too aggressive. You can't have both.[/quote]Sure I can. Legion is WAE because they make the wrong decisions based on the circumstances. Were they consistent in a single course of policy, then over the years it stands to reason that [i]eventually[/i] they'd have some real successes before now. But the only thing consistent about Legion's FA has been both ineptitude and servitude.

False dichotomy, Hal. Legion is terrible, because they find the best way to be terrible all on their own, regardless of the context.


[quote]So much spinning, I'm dizzy.

You made the decision to support Tetris. That much is understandable in a way, since you helped put them in the mess they are in.[/quote] Well, there was also the thing about this treaty we have together...Unless you're saying MDPs are suddenly optional now. Which is news to me, quite frankly.

[quote] Fair enough. But Legion's response was made as a result of [i]provocations made by Tetris[/i]. It is [b]not[/b] by definition an aggressive act, since Legion was [i]justifiably reacting[/i] to that provocation, and did not pick out Tetris to shoot at for lulz or for unjustifiable reasons.[/quote]
That would be correct if Tetris hadnt attempted to resolve the situation via Diplomacy, if the Legion hadn't waited nearly a week to declare (when VE had downgraded it's treaty with them), and if the Legion had actually bothered to discover who the leak in their alliance was instead of look for the easiest scapegoat to hit at the first opportunity.

And [i]you're[/i] dizzy.


[quote]Given that you would never, ever let them forget leaving the battlefield without you much as you never, ever let Legion forget about its previous shortcomings, this is laughable. Actually, Tetris should cancel the treaty today and be done with you, but I know that's not how they roll. They are in their own way honorable, even if they did things that brought them to the point of war and should apologize for them.
[/quote]
Sure we would. Since Tetris are pretty good allies. That you're implying that we are, in any way, keeping Tetris under some kind of threat of retaliation should they peace out before us is beyond laughable.

Just because you can't fathom the idea of people doing right by their friends, does not mean others are incapable of that, you know? Keep it up, by the way, this is fun.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1320171183' post='2836552']
If it's so trivial and meaningless why precisely aren't NSO just copping to it for the sake of peace?
[/quote]

Don't pretend to be ignorant...Polar should know NSO better than most. They won't cop because of who they are and because who is asking it of them. The reasons really don't matter do they? Bottom line is it will likely never happen. It doesn't do Legion any good to pursue it.

[Heft]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1320170829' post='2836550']
Wrong already, that's simple NSO propaganda, but continuing...
[/quote]
Are you saying Legion didn't attack Tetris?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1320171412' post='2836555']
Huh, seems Tetris has the same concept of allies that we do.....interesting.
[/quote]

Again, that has nothing to do with what I actually stated, nor does it refute anything. So far the only thing respectable done by Tetris/NSO is the fact that both are willing to burn for their allies. Other than that, both ya'lls alliances are utterly worthless.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1320171602' post='2836558']Don't pretend to be ignorant...Polar should know NSO better than most. They won't cop because of who they are and because who is asking it of them. The reasons really don't matter do they? Bottom line is it will likely never happen. It doesn't do Legion any good to pursue it.[/quote]So their hubris is preventing them from surrendering?