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[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1320096351' post='2835950']
A simple upgrade to a treaty in private is easy enough to do or heck in that last big war people were jumping in all over without treaties. This is the new Planet Bob.
[/quote]

LMFAO........ So lets get this right, people can now sign a treaty and join in a war that started a month ago ?, this is a crazy new world we live in, wont be long before people sign treaties to have a vaild reason to attack another alliance for a war that happened 4 years ago.

Hail TPF for setting the standard.

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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320100071' post='2835984']
I have been in similar discussions, and when IAA DoW'd was the only time I had them express confidence in a military victory. There is a difference between winning, and not losing. It all depends on the goals you set forth. But regardless, I am eager for all of those who have spewed the tag line for days now, to provide me with their evidence, or retract their nonsense, and STFU.
[/quote]

I did a lot of searching as well and mr Sykes claims from what I can tell is correct.

NSO tossed around a lot of crap about how it was nice knowing legion, or that they would show legion how to wage war or that they would beat them down but not once did they say 1 v 1 they would win (again from the threads I looked through)

However make no mistake NSO spouted nothing but confidence in legions defeat at their hands

So 1v1, no
NSO would beat legion, was said

Though they aren't delivering on that promise.

Also NSO has repeatedly said for the last few years they care not about PR so we can stop that as well

Now back to the beat down NSO is getting

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[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1320106293' post='2836053']
LMFAO........ So lets get this right, people can now sign a treaty and join in a war that started a month ago ?, this is a crazy new world we live in, wont be long before people sign treaties to have a vaild reason to attack another alliance for a war that happened 4 years ago.

Hail TPF for setting the standard.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure he was implying that treaties could be quickly signed so alliances could enter in on an oA clause with an alliance who legitimately COULD enter the war.

For example, some random alliance, say Ubercon, could theoretically MDoAP with TPF, then oA in the war with TPF if the wanted to help out NSO.

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[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1320106293' post='2836053']
LMFAO........ So lets get this right, people can now sign a treaty and join in a war that started a month ago ?, this is a crazy new world we live in, wont be long before people sign treaties to have a vaild reason to attack another alliance for a war that happened 4 years ago.

Hail TPF for setting the standard.
[/quote]

Alliances are not restricted by their treaties in deciding who to declare war upon.

So yes, People can now (And always could) just join in a war that started however long or short ago.

Its not so much a new world such as a revelation of what had already been true.

EDIT: Inb4 someone claims I said MD are not binding agreements.

Edited by Krunk the Great
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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320099353' post='2835976']
First off Bob, this is not directed solely at you, you are just the latest to say it. This has been being said all day, The tag line that NSO said repeatedly that they alone could take down Legion. I went back to World Affairs, and read 4 NSO taunt legion threads.
[/quote]

What I find amusing with what you just said, is the number of threads that NSO made in taunting Legion. You go searching for a particular post about something that really does not matter either way. Yet you don't find the time and energy of NSO making derogatory threads about Legion distasteful.

You seem to be projecting your mind solely on what is really of no bearing rather then of the entire problem, yes I know some people are nit picking about issues and small grievances but it is of no real value. Legion feel like they have been wronged by NSO and Tetris and it seems the planet bob is split as to who they believe is in the right, so I say let them smack it out.

As they say, After all the victor gets to write the history books.

Edited by nutkase
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[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1320111894' post='2836108']
As they say, After all the victor gets to write the history books.
[/quote]


That's all we need to leave it at right there.

Also sandwich next time come for me instead of chozo kthx

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[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1320111894' post='2836108']
What I find amusing with what you just said, is the number of threads that NSO made in taunting Legion. You go searching for a particular post about something that really does not matter either way. Yet you don't find the time and energy of NSO making derogatory threads about Legion distasteful.

You seem to be projecting your mind solely on what is really of no bearing rather then of the entire problem, yes I know some people are nit picking about issues and small grievances but it is of no real value. Legion feel like they have been wronged by NSO and Tetris and it seems the planet bob is split as to who they believe is in the right, so I say let them smack it out.

As they say, After all the victor gets to write the history books.
[/quote]

First off, whether or not NSO's taunting of Legion is distasteful or not, it is not part of the point I was making. Somewhere early on, some poorly informed idiot posted that NSO bragged for months that they could beat Legion 1v1. Then mouth breather after mouth breather followed and trumpeted it. It was cried long and loud, all throughout this thread. If NSO had indeed done that, I am a pragmatic person, I would be the 1st to tell them , you made this bed, now lie in it. So, I went and checked. And I checked. And I checked some more. And I found, the whole rallying cry, the entire premise(for many) that NSO should not now make use of allies, was a complete and total fabrication. So, I put the info out there. If NSO taunts from May-September were so distasteful, then Legion should have acted on them, instead of ignoring them. That they set their precedent of cowering in peace mode during a war, and then cowering in peace time from obvious acts of war, both through nation-nation acts(spy ops) and forum-forum(SS's etc), nets them a grand total of ZERO sympathy from me for their plight. They made it themselves. They have been finely crafting this masterpiece for the better part of 3 years. However, like I said before, if we want to now use wars as a means to punish alliances for what has already happened, that went unpunished at the time, I will LOVE this new world, cuz I have SEVERAL alliances that I would like to enact this bold new precedent on.

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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320114310' post='2836137']
First off, whether or not NSO's taunting of Legion is distasteful or not, it is not part of the point I was making. Somewhere early on, some poorly informed idiot posted that NSO bragged for months that they could beat Legion 1v1. Then mouth breather after mouth breather followed and trumpeted it. It was cried long and loud, all throughout this thread. If NSO had indeed done that, I am a pragmatic person, I would be the 1st to tell them , you made this bed, now lie in it. So, I went and checked. And I checked. And I checked some more. And I found, the whole rallying cry, the entire premise(for many) that NSO should not now make use of allies, was a complete and total fabrication. So, I put the info out there. If NSO taunts from May-September were so distasteful, then Legion should have acted on them, instead of ignoring them. That they set their precedent of cowering in peace mode during a war, and then cowering in peace time from obvious acts of war, both through nation-nation acts(spy ops) and forum-forum(SS's etc), nets them a grand total of ZERO sympathy from me for their plight. They made it themselves. They have been finely crafting this masterpiece for the better part of 3 years. However, like I said before, if we want to now use wars as a means to punish alliances for what has already happened, that went unpunished at the time, I will LOVE this new world, cuz I have SEVERAL alliances that I would like to enact this bold new precedent on.
[/quote]

Them some strong words boi.

I think you should apologize in advance for anyone who you have offended.

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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320114310' post='2836137']
First off, whether or not NSO's taunting of Legion is distasteful or not, it is not part of the point I was making. Somewhere early on, some poorly informed idiot posted that NSO bragged for months that they could beat Legion 1v1. Then mouth breather after mouth breather followed and trumpeted it. It was cried long and loud, all throughout this thread. If NSO had indeed done that, I am a pragmatic person, I would be the 1st to tell them , you made this bed, now lie in it. So, I went and checked. And I checked. And I checked some more. And I found, the whole rallying cry, the entire premise(for many) that NSO should not now make use of allies, was a complete and total fabrication. So, I put the info out there. If NSO taunts from May-September were so distasteful, then Legion should have acted on them, instead of ignoring them. That they set their precedent of cowering in peace mode during a war, and then cowering in peace time from obvious acts of war, both through nation-nation acts(spy ops) and forum-forum(SS's etc), nets them a grand total of ZERO sympathy from me for their plight. They made it themselves. They have been finely crafting this masterpiece for the better part of 3 years. However, like I said before, if we want to now use wars as a means to punish alliances for what has already happened, that went unpunished at the time, I will LOVE this new world, cuz I have SEVERAL alliances that I would like to enact this bold new precedent on.
[/quote]

I'd like to see what Pez was talking about. NSO with Tetris and NSO without Tetris isn't exactly a big difference, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320114310' post='2836137']
First off, whether or not NSO's taunting of Legion is distasteful or not, it is not part of the point I was making. Somewhere early on, some poorly informed idiot posted that NSO bragged for months that they could beat Legion 1v1. Then mouth breather after mouth breather followed and trumpeted it. It was cried long and loud, all throughout this thread. If NSO had indeed done that, I am a pragmatic person, I would be the 1st to tell them , you made this bed, now lie in it. So, I went and checked. And I checked. And I checked some more. And I found, the whole rallying cry, the entire premise(for many) that NSO should not now make use of allies, was a complete and total fabrication. So, I put the info out there. If NSO taunts from May-September were so distasteful, then Legion should have acted on them, instead of ignoring them. That they set their precedent of cowering in peace mode during a war, and then cowering in peace time from obvious acts of war, both through nation-nation acts(spy ops) and forum-forum(SS's etc), nets them a grand total of ZERO sympathy from me for their plight. They made it themselves. They have been finely crafting this masterpiece for the better part of 3 years. However, like I said before, if we want to now use wars as a means to punish alliances for what has already happened, that went unpunished at the time, I will LOVE this new world, cuz I have SEVERAL alliances that I would like to enact this bold new precedent on.
[/quote]

You're essentially saying since the Legion was okay with acts of war committed upon it in the past they have no right to be not okay with acts of war committed against them now. Further, that they should be punished because of some unrelated event that you had absolutely no part in, and therefore you are somehow a moral bastion of justice by stating the Legion should thus be punished because NSO attacked them in defense of their ally whom committed an act of war against Legion.

The argument that white peace with the stipulation of admitting a defeat that all (aside from NSO,) admit has been incurred is somehow egregious and so harsh it is unacceptable is just nonesense and a very poor attempt to try to spin reality. When taken into account along with ignoring the fact that NSO has been revealed to had a very major part in the act of war committed against Legion by Tetris, an aggressive action that nearly all (including the spin doctors here,) agree was an act of war, it's hard to see how White Peace and admitting reality is some sort of precedent for you to extort alliances for past actions in the future.

Good luck with that, though.

Edited by IYIyTh
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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320096307' post='2835949']
Nor is continuing with the same old "wait for someone to manufacture a passable CB and bring it to someone willing to use it." This has stalled political shifts for a year at a time since the advent of needing an airtight OOC:ingame OOC: so that allies will actually do what allies are supposed to do. The system stinks. Anything that is anti-system that is even tried right now, is better than continuing to sit here and wait.
[/quote]

Agreed

In this situation though the second people start piling on Legion, they will not have a chance to win. Legion don't have the treaty chains and likely won't call their allies to help. It'll just end up another beatdown of another (no offense to Legion) !@#$%* alliance. Followed by a white peace hailed by everyone. That's just as boring as sitting around doing nothing.

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[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1320115703' post='2836162']
Agreed

In this situation though the second people start piling on Legion, they will not have a chance to win. Legion don't have the treaty chains and likely won't call their allies to help. It'll just end up another beatdown of another (no offense to Legion) !@#$%* alliance. Followed by a white peace hailed by everyone. That's just as boring as sitting around doing nothing.
[/quote]

I'm sure you could hop around to a new alliance, there are some of us out here having fun after all.

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[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1320115995' post='2836165']
I'm sure you could hop around to a new alliance, there are some of us out here having fun after all.
[/quote]

Maybe you could share some of this fun with the rest of us?

Also, I'm headed to Non-Grata next. Will you put in a good word for me for old time's sake?

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[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1320115995' post='2836165']
I'm sure you could hop around to a new alliance, there are some of us out here having fun after all.
[/quote]

This is the second time in nearly two weeks I've agreed with a member of Non Grata on something.


What has this world come to.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320115501' post='2836160']
You're essentially saying since the Legion was okay with acts of war committed upon it in the past they have no right to be not okay with acts of war committed against them now. Further, that they should be punished because of some unrelated event that you had absolutely no part in, and therefore you are somehow a moral bastion of justice by stating the Legion should thus be punished because NSO attacked them in defense of their ally whom committed an act of war against Legion.

The argument that white peace with the stipulation of admitting a defeat that all (aside from NSO,) admit has been incurred is somehow egregious and so harsh it is unacceptable is just nonesense and a very poor attempt to try to spin reality. When taken into account along with ignoring the fact that NSO has been revealed to had a very major part in the act of war committed against Legion by Tetris, an aggressive action that nearly all (including the spin doctors here,) agree was an act of war, it's hard to see how White Peace and admitting reality is some sort of precedent for you to extort alliances for past actions in the future.

Good luck with that, though.
[/quote]

No, Im saying that if you ignore it when it happens, you cant punish it when the opportunity suits you. I mean you can, but it comes with a risk, And that risk grows every day. Had Legion hit NSO back when all this came about, I would have zero support for NSO in this endeavor.

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[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1320106293' post='2836053']
LMFAO........ So lets get this right, people can now sign a treaty and join in a war that started a month ago ?, this is a crazy new world we live in, wont be long before people sign treaties to have a vaild reason to attack another alliance for a war that happened 4 years ago.

Hail TPF for setting the standard.
[/quote]

People can do whatever they want and it is hardly new. I recall back as far as GW2 retro active treaties being signed. We have also seen in Planet Bobs history treaties as low as PIATs being used to enter. Then again we also have seen the last two major wars people entering without treaties at all. Of course anybody who pays semi attention to what goes on around here or has the abliity to read knows all this. Interesting that you did not. Please let me know if you need me to help you look foolish again.

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[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320116625' post='2836172']
No, Im saying that if you ignore it when it happens, you cant punish it when the opportunity suits you. I mean you can, but it comes with a risk, And that risk grows every day. Had Legion hit NSO back when all this came about, I would have zero support for NSO in this endeavor.
[/quote]

Why is White peace with a condition of surrender such a horrible surrender term? Especially if NSO is losing the battle? How is the fact that NSO played a very real role in Tetris's act of war against Legion ignorable in this instance?

Does the precedent of offering an amiable term to a defeated force constitute as some form of injustice of extortion? How is admitting reality a terrible burden?
I could see if they were forcing huge tech reps (which would be the scenario you imply in the future,) on either Tetris or NSO where your point may have validity, but that's not the case here.

That in the future someone would use the precedent of white peace with stipulation of surrender as being comparable without context would be to their detriment. If that day comes I will be right beside you howling at the injustice. I want to agree with you in principle, but you're missing a large part of the context in this situation.

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[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1320089678' post='2835907']
Caring about PR at this point (in general, not just for NSO in this situation) is yet another way to have less fun. It mattered in 2006-2009. Now it's just slowing things down.
[/quote]
That's the biggest secret of spin, you know:

It doesn't actually matter worth half a damn. You're either in it for the competition, or because you're naive enough to think it matters.

Sorry, Smurf, looks like I let my last lesson slip a little early.

In the end, all that really matters is that the NSO accomplishes what it wanted to. Since when have we ever [i]really[/i] cared about PR, anyway?

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[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1320119215' post='2836217']

In the end, all that really matters is that the NSO accomplishes what it wanted to. [b]Since when have we ever [i]really[/i] cared about PR, anyway?[/b]
[/quote]

We let Krunk post, so that alone should put any questions to rest. B-)

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If you didn't care about PR you would have surrendered and moved on, no? The only thing keeping you in this war is your pride from what I can see and that is very closely linked to how others will perceive you post-war.

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[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1320120417' post='2836226']
If you didn't care about PR you would have surrendered and moved on, no? The only thing keeping you in this war is your pride from what I can see and that is very closely linked to how others will perceive you post-war.
[/quote]
See, that's the funny thing, Tyga.

You just asked:
[quote]If you didn't care about PR you would have surrendered and moved on, no?[/quote]

And then answered your own rhetorical question with:

[quote]The only thing keeping you in this war is your pride from what I can see[/quote]

Then misguidedly attempted to define your answer based on a hilariously misguided premise with:

[quote]and that is very closely linked to how others will perceive you post-war.[/quote]

It's funny because the STA knows better than most how our pride has very little to do with how we're perceived by others. So I guess that means you're either trying the spin game (it's quite fun, but you're doing it wrong) or you're just lying through your teeth (and as you are a man of intelligence, I am betting that this is the angle you're going for).

After all, were that an attempt at spin, it would be laughably inept. So since the wisest course of action is to assume that you are [i]not[/i] incompetent, you must be lying through your teeth about how the Sith's pride works. Just saying.

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[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1320116876' post='2836177']
People can do whatever they want and it is hardly new. I recall back as far as GW2 retro active treaties being signed. We have also seen in Planet Bobs history treaties as low as PIATs being used to enter. Then again we also have seen the last two major wars people entering without treaties at all. Of course anybody who pays semi attention to what goes on around here or has the abliity to read knows all this. Interesting that you did not. Please let me know if you need me to help you look foolish again.
[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"]EVERYTHING.[/color] [color="#008000"]MUST.[/color] [color="#800080"]DIE. [/color]

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