Official announcement from the Legion

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Silent Spectre' timestamp='1320076143' post='2835698']
Keep in mind, Legion HAS a VALID CB. Its not any of this "I dont like you, so I'll roll you." Tetris screwed up, got caught, and deserved their spanking. [/quote]

I think you should recall not everyone still agrees with the full validity of the CB. Yes, Tetris acted aggressively stupid with the thread they made. But the "got caught" you mention implies that Tetris did the spying, which still remains unproven. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy Legion finally decided to act on the taunts they've received. There remains a grey area, albeit small, as to this being an "airtight" CB.

[quote name='Silent Spectre' timestamp='1320076143' post='2835698']NSO did like any good ally and defended their treaty partner. That I respect. But when you are offered peace, and then escalate because of your pride... bad show. [/quote]

Have you no pride? You sign treaties to be close with friends, but also to increase your political worth and add greater layers of protection to your alliance. Not all alliances can amass certain kinds of statistical advantages, whether it be number of members, average NS, number of nukes, etc. that others can. This is for various reasons, whether it be the sense of community your alliance strives for, having tough admission standards, or simply not being interested in being a large alliance with face-less members. What I'm getting at, is there's no reason for NSO to be "to proud" to call in their allies to gain back a statistical balance in this war. Legion has a statistical upperhand in this fight, by virtue of being a larger alliance, that NSO would like to see counteracted. Since the NSO does not have a large enough memberbase to support this war, they likely will need to have allies help balance the load of defensive wars. The NSO has allied alliances to help fight them in times of need, and if they feel this is a time of need, they should not hesitate to continue fighting.

[Krunk the Great]

[color="#008000"]On a separate note, I guess this war has proven my signature false....Too bad....or good for Legion....whichever one works.[/color]

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1320074746' post='2835684']
Why should Legion be forced to accommodate NSO?
[/quote]

Legion is declaring victory and granting white peace as an act of benevolence. If NSO wants to interpret that as "winning" well, they do have a certain Charlie Sheen about them....

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320077145' post='2835720']
This is quite simply a dumb question. Every alliance since the inception of planet Bob, has at one time or another, called in an ally when they didnt need them. Almost every war has been exactly this on a grand scale, with a decided edge to one side, but AA's continue to bandwagon and pile on. You know what allies are for? They are to help you kill those you are fighting with. There is no honor, or dishonor, in using them to that end.
[/quote]

Every war has started small, went big, then broke down to the original players. This has already done that, to call in more people now is different than anything in history.

If NSO were being forced reps then I would see why their allies might intervene. However NSO is being asked to suck it up and admit they lost (which we all know they have).

[D34th]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320077145' post='2835720']
This is quite simply a dumb question. Every alliance since the inception of planet Bob, has at one time or another, called in an ally when they didnt need them. Almost every war has been exactly this on a grand scale, with a decided edge to one side, but AA's continue to bandwagon and pile on. You know what allies are for? They are to help you kill those you are fighting with. There is no honor, or dishonor, in using them to that end.
[/quote]

So what are you saying is that NSO is winning and therefore doesn't need their allies, but will call them anyway. This is one of the greatest spins that I saw in this whole thread.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1320077354' post='2835724']
NSO openly boasted of having spied on Legion's nations. What are you trying to prove there? It doesn't change the fact that NSO entered in defense of Tetris, after Tetris was attacked by Legion. It just gives just cause for Legion's war.

Terms don't have anything to do with the relative justice of a cause.
[/quote]

You're still not referring to what exactly is so wrong with Legion's offer of White Peace conditional on NSO admitting defeat, something you yourself admit to saying they have achieved indirectly in another post. What exactly is so wrong with the Legion for asking for NSO to accept reality, a point that you admit statistically has been achieved as a potential compromise that includes ignoring reality.
Are we to ignore reality? Are we going to ignore that Legion is being attacked aggresively by NSO? Why? Because NSO threatens to bring in other alliances on non-activated treaties because they don't want White Peace and hope to use their other treaties as a means to punish Legion or spite them for defending themselves so well?

Edited October 31, 2011 by IYIyTh

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320076949' post='2835714']
The issue that most of us have is this : NSO is in this war on a binding mutual defense obligation. Yet are being treated more harshly, in the conclusion of the affair, than those who blatantly used aggression clauses. It is all being done, in an effort to punish NSO for things that Legion were too afraid to man up and punish them for months ago when they actually happened. Now, dont get me wrong, I am rather giddy at the thought that this world is coming to accept punishing alliances for crimes committed in the past, that they were never punished for. I can think of a few alliances , though, that shouldnt want this precedent set.
[/quote]

I beg to differ, NSO are being punished because of their mouths are bigger than their brains. Admitting defeat is a proper punishment.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1320077354' post='2835724']
NSO openly boasted of having spied on Legion's nations. What are you trying to prove there? It doesn't change the fact that NSO entered in defense of Tetris, after Tetris was attacked by Legion. It just gives just cause for Legion's war.

Terms don't have anything to do with the relative justice of a cause.
[/quote]

Terms have always had to do with the relative justice of a cause in relation to the original CB. In this case it's very clear that NSO were the reason that the original CB even started, thus even if NSO did go in on an MDP they should still be held accountable for their part in starting the war.

This is why periphery alliances are given more lenient terms, if any. Honestly I'm quite amazed you could make that last statement with a straight face.

[eyriq]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1320077429' post='2835726']
I think you should recall not everyone still agrees with the full validity of the CB. Yes, Tetris acted aggressively stupid with the thread they made. But the "got caught" you mention implies that Tetris did the spying, which still remains unproven. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy Legion finally decided to act on the taunts they've received. There remains a grey area, albeit small, as to this being an "airtight" CB.



Have you no pride? You sign treaties to be close with friends, but also to increase your political worth and add greater layers of protection to your alliance. Not all alliances can amass certain kinds of statistical advantages, whether it be number of members, average NS, number of nukes, etc. that others can. This is for various reasons, whether it be the sense of community your alliance strives for, having tough admission standards, or simply not being interested in being a large alliance with face-less members. What I'm getting at, is there's no reason for NSO to be "to proud" to call in their allies to gain back a statistical balance in this war. Legion has a statistical upperhand in this fight, by virtue of being a larger alliance, that NSO would like to see counteracted. Since the NSO does not have a large enough memberbase to support this war, they likely will need to have allies help balance the load of defensive wars. The NSO has allied alliances to help fight them in times of need, and if they feel this is a time of need, they should not hesitate to continue fighting.
[/quote]

badabing badaboom

NSO is the sum of their allies unless otherwise indicated. There has been no "otherwise".

[Silent Spectre]

[quote name='Krunk the Great' timestamp='1320076750' post='2835712']
[color="#008000"]There are three possibilities

[/color][list=1][*][color="#008000"]NSO Lies and says they were defeated by Legion[/color][*][color="#008000"]Legion, Tetris, and NSO simply shoulder their guns and go home[/color][*][color="#008000"]The war escalates[/color][/list][color="#008000"]Naturally the second option is preferable as it ends a war (The purpose of which was for Legion to show the world that they won't jump into peace mode at the drop of a hat, like the entire world and their mother expected them to, which is admirable I'll give them that) whose purpose has expired.

The first option would be a deception as we have not been defeated by Legion, why would we tell the world we are except to stroke Legion's tiny nether regions even more.

The third option is the least desirable, but still a possibility. It would end the war, yes. It would be much more decisive, yes. Personally? I don't have the time to invest into a much longer war. [/color]
[/quote]

Dude "the first option would be a deception as we have not been defeated by Legion" your profile says you are in NsO... YOU DID LOSE TO LEGION. And NSO is losing at the moment to legion, so shut up and get your facts straight before coming to the table.


[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1320076949' post='2835714']
The issue that most of us have is this : NSO is in this war on a binding mutual defense obligation. Yet are being treated more harshly, in the conclusion of the affair, than those who blatantly used aggression clauses. It is all being done, in an effort to punish NSO for things that Legion were too afraid to man up and punish them for months ago when they actually happened. Now, dont get me wrong, I am rather giddy at the thought that this world is coming to accept punishing alliances for crimes committed in the past, that they were never punished for. I can think of a few alliances , though, that shouldnt want this precedent set.
[/quote]


I have no problems with NSO defending their ally. To me the reason they are being "picked on" for lack of better words is that it came out that THEY leaked the ss to Tetris, which means they are just as guilty.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1320077429' post='2835726']
I think you should recall not everyone still agrees with the full validity of the CB. Yes, Tetris acted aggressively stupid with the thread they made. But the "got caught" you mention implies that Tetris did the spying, which still remains unproven. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy Legion finally decided to act on the taunts they've received. There remains a grey area, albeit small, as to this being an "airtight" CB.


[/quote]

Not to argue on semantics, but this has probably been the most widely accepted valid CB since I joined back in 2006.

[Lincongrad]

Let me start this by saying that I acknowledge the issues of our weak geopolitical position. It's an issue, and one which we should not discount. The question is whether we should let our geopolitical position affect our belief in what is right and what is deserved.

That said, I'd like to address this section of your post a little bit.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1320075894' post='2835695']Many of their responses in this thread [snip] - those about NSO being incompetent, needing to disband, etc - are interesting given that they've also been levied against The Legion through the years. Given this historical context, in addition to The Legion's aforementioned weak geopolitical position, I feel very justified when I say I perceive hubris.
[/quote]

You say that we're exhibiting hubris. I say that some of our people believe in fighting fire with fire. NSO has, frankly, treated us extremely poorly (Tetris has been exceedingly courteous throughout the war, which is great). Many of our members are extremely ticked off. One of the things that has kept us going in this war is simply pent up rage. NSO has been a big one for tossing all

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320077418' post='2835725']
The fact that you insinuate White Peace as being treated harshly and is a "bad precedent," to set is kind of humerous, especially when you go on to imply veiled threats towards other alliances and presumably my own for merely commenting that "most of us," clearly just want to see this escalate for their own purposes. I get that some of us might have an election to win and have reason to start a war, but by god, sell it better than saying White Peace is harsh.

[/quote]

Except for the small fact, that white peace is NOT what is being offered. So, other than the rest of your post being destroyed by that 1 inaccuracy. And yes, I am making veiled threats at MHA, cuz, you know, I have a massive want to kill them. WHAT? I can think of about 30 targets Id like to obliterate right now, MHA is not one of them. So MY veiled threats, have nothing whatsoever to do with you. MHA is 100% insignificant to me.

[Lincongrad]

EDIT: Wow, internet. So many multiple posts.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Lincongrad

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320077671' post='2835731']
You're still not referring to what exactly is so wrong with Legion's offer of White Peace conditional on NSO admitting defeat, something you yourself admit to saying they have achieved indirectly in another post. What exactly is so wrong with the Legion for asking for NSO to accept reality, a point that you admit statistically has been achieved as a potential compromise that includes ignoring reality.
Are we to ignore reality? Are we going to ignore that Legion is being attacked aggresively by NSO? Why? Because NSO threatens to bring in other alliances on non-activated treaties because they don't want White Peace and hope to use their other treaties as a means to punish Legion or spite them for defending themselves so well?
[/quote]

Maybe because there actually is a difference between accepting a mutual white peace and admitting defeat. If NSO were actually on the ropes here, they'd probably be willing to admit defeat, although they clearly are not defeated currently since we're having this conversation.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1320077871' post='2835736']
Not to argue on semantics, but this has probably been the most widely accepted valid CB since I joined back in 2006.
[/quote]

You're right, lets not argue semantics then

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='Silent Spectre' timestamp='1320077864' post='2835735']
Dude "the first option would be a deception as we have not been defeated by Legion" your profile says you are in NsO... YOU DID LOSE TO LEGION. And NSO is losing at the moment to legion, so shut up and get your facts straight before coming to the table.





I have no problems with NSO defending their ally. To me the reason they are being "picked on" for lack of better words is that it came out that THEY leaked the ss to Tetris, which means they are just as guilty.
[/quote]

[list=1][*][color="#008000"]The New Samurai Order has always supported her brothers in the New Sith Order and found a rather large distaste for the New Sakura Order's girly men. (Translation: ...Idiot...)
[/color][*][color="#008000"]NSO is at the moment slightly statistically disadvantaged. NSO is not at this time defeated. If NSO was at this time defeated, the war would be over.[/color][*][color="#008000"]So NSO leaked something that was readily available in private channels?[/color][/list]

[Lincongrad]

EDIT: Ugh, more multiple posts.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Lincongrad

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1320078100' post='2835741']
Maybe because there actually is a difference between accepting a mutual white peace and admitting defeat. If NSO were actually on the ropes here, they'd probably be willing to admit defeat, although they clearly are not defeated currently since we're having this conversation.
[/quote]

They already have admitted defeat. They're stance now is "leave us alone or we'll get our friends to stop you because we can't".

[IYIyTh]

I disagree.
White peace is being offered, with the admission of defeat (which they have been.) That you would attempt to spin it as thousands of tech in reps have been proposed as reparations is just creedance that you would rather see this escalate than peace achieved.

I can only hope that in the future people are so evil as to offer MHA white peace on the condition of accepting defeat when we are clearly losing a war. Especially if before that war we went out of our way to goad, taunt...Hell, let's say we spy on them and give those screenshots to one of our allies who get declared on and we defend when they post them publicly.

Gee, that would sure be evil of them to ask us to just admit that we were defeated. But yeah, if I wanted things to escalate for no reason other than wanting things to escalate, I could see how I would say differently.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320077671' post='2835731']
You're still not referring to what exactly is so wrong with Legion's offer of White Peace conditional on NSO admitting defeat, something you yourself admit to saying they have achieved indirectly in another post. What exactly is so wrong with the Legion for asking for NSO to accept reality, a point that you admit statistically has been achieved as a potential compromise that includes ignoring reality.
Are we to ignore reality? Are we going to ignore that Legion is being attacked aggresively by NSO? Why? Because NSO threatens to bring in other alliances on non-activated treaties because they don't want White Peace and hope to use their other treaties as a means to punish Legion or spite them for defending themselves so well?[/quote]
Because an admission of defeat isn't a full white peace. Not all terms are material in nature.

Many consider that Legion has achieved a small military victory. Agreeing to White Peace with the NSO and military peace with Tetris, along with an apology, is simply a confirmation of that. They can be stubborn and refuse to do so but so can the enemies and, at this level, rebuilding is very easy to do, even if they do not call in allies. It could result in a prolonged war that would further weaken Legion but barely worsen NSO's position.

Sometimes, one has to be realistic. Legion comes from far, far away. What they have achieved so far is nothing short of a miracle.

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1320077711' post='2835733']
Terms have always had to do with the relative justice of a cause in relation to the original CB. In this case it's very clear that NSO were the reason that the original CB even started, thus even if NSO did go in on an MDP they should still be held accountable for their part in starting the war.

This is why periphery alliances are given more lenient terms, if any. Honestly I'm quite amazed you could make that last statement with a straight face.[/quote]
You're trying to tell me that terms, on Planet Bob, have been imposed to alliances following the justice of the casus belli?

Please.

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='Lincongrad' timestamp='1320077873' post='2835737']
NSO has, frankly, treated us extremely poorly [/quote]

Please keep in mind we do have several Ex-Pacificans (RV comes to mind immediately) in the alliance who may harbor ill will towards The Legion.

Asking some of these members to make nice-nice with you is like asking NPO to make nice-nice with Dopp and Anthony XD

EDIT: Shoot, its like asking Dopp and Anthony to make nice-nice with me.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Krunk the Great

[Freebird99]

I would like my goverment to announce the following:

[quote]That no matter who NSO brings in, we, Legion, will not ask any of our friends to join, but rather ask them to stay out. [/quote]

Then maybe we could end thoose silly idea's about making a global war out of this!

Edited October 31, 2011 by Freebird99

[Krunk the Great]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1320078329' post='2835746']
They already have admitted defeat.
[/quote]

If you say we have already done that, then what is holding up a simple peace if that was the stipulation?

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1320078370' post='2835748']
I disagree.
White peace is being offered, with the admission of defeat (which they have been.) That you would attempt to spin it as thousands of tech in reps have been proposed as reparations is just creedance that you would rather see this escalate than peace achieved.

I can only hope that in the future people are so evil as to offer MHA white peace on the condition of accepting defeat when we are clearly losing a war. Especially if before that war we went out of our way to goad, taunt...Hell, let's say we spy on them and give those screenshots to one of our allies who get declared on and we defend when they post them publicly.

Gee, that would sure be evil of them to ask us to just admit that we were defeated. But yeah, if I wanted things to escalate for no reason other than wanting things to escalate, I could see how I would say differently.
[/quote]

I am in no sense spinning this as equivalent to "thousands of tech in reps." NSO simply does not want to be defeated by the Legion, and has perfectly viable options to see a defeat does not occur. I know admitting defeat is an easy notion for your alliance to wrap your head around, but other alliances have a bit more pride than that.