Stonewall Jaxon Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 [s]I am happy to sacrifice my nation for this noble cause![/s] Oh wait, we're announcing elections? o/ CoJ o/ Don Chele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Webster Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote name='feestaap1' timestamp='1319292825' post='2830453'] congrats on election CoJ! and lol at the defcon 1's [/quote] He's only been in office a short time. I'm sure before long all of our nations will have good backcollection habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Chele Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Thank you for the well-wishes. I hope my automated audit robots improve the efficiency of our nations and my winning personality improves morale. May my reign of economic terror be a jolly one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merk Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Congrats on your elections, albeit it wasn't what I was hoping for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakamitai Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I support this announcement, and all of the moralizing that is sure to follow. o/ Schatt o/ Don Chele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRON IX Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Congrats on your election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasuda Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Congratulations on your ascension, Don Chele. May you be a merciless enforcer of sound economic policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Congrats on the election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 In all seriousness, the democratization of our IA position has been a longtime goal of CoJ's. The military and foreign affairs are no place for democracy because they are instruments of the executive; however, in the Cult, the IA man is more than just a number-cruncher or trade-ring maker. He is charged with being an example and mentor to his fellow Justitians, and bearing the torch of Justitian spirit and culture. Because of this, it is right that he be elected. But democracy for democracy's sake is a mistake, so we have waited until the cult's growth and place on its path could support the realization of this goal, I'm proud we've reached this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) Congrats Don Chele, I hope you serve the cult well. Edited October 23, 2011 by Omniscient1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzptm Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Best of luck to the new guy. Hello to my friends in Justitia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amossio Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 [quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1319260674' post='2830319'] I didn't get this until I looked at CNtel. Well played CoJ. [/quote] You actually pay attention to that hahaha nice coj hey schatt long time no see bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 A better selection could not have been made. Chele's awesome. Congratulations to the Cult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1319337459' post='2830741'] In all seriousness, the democratization of our IA position has been a longtime goal of CoJ's. The military and foreign affairs are no place for democracy because they are instruments of the executive; however, in the Cult, the IA man is more than just a number-cruncher or trade-ring maker. He is charged with being an example and mentor to his fellow Justitians, and bearing the torch of Justitian spirit and culture. Because of this, it is right that he be elected. But democracy for democracy's sake is a mistake, so we have waited until the cult's growth and place on its path could support the realization of this goal, I'm proud we've reached this point. [/quote] When you put it like this, you make me almost not hate democracy. Impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 [quote name='Locke' timestamp='1319341437' post='2830778'] When you put it like this, you make me almost not hate democracy. Impressive. [/quote] Democracy has it's proper time and place. CoJ is not a political entity, we're a religious order, "democracy" is a political process. I'm using the term democracy for our way of choosing the Dadouchos because it's a term easily understood, but its more a process of proclamation. In alliances, democray is more appropriate, but the elevation of democracy over its utility is a mistake that most alliances make. It makes no sense to elect ministers--especially military and foreign, but even IA--because the executive should be directing the agenda for the alliance, not a disparate group of people with their own agendas. Worse, most people have no business in any ministry as a minster because they don't have the expertise needed for the position, but they might be a damned good campaigner. Or, even if you have qualified candidates, voter turnout in most democratic alliances is abysmal (take ODN's 13% of over 300 members), so a very few uninformed people can elect people that might otherwise lose to a better qualified opponent. In context of CoJ, I've outlined why a democratic process works for IA for us in the post you quoted. Even so, it made no sense to do that when we had 4 members, 20, or even 40 prior to the DH-NPO War, it's at this point where we are now that it made sense, and getting to this point has been a goal and long road--we're over 2 yrs old now. We have many people with the expertise and the drive, and we have enough active members to make an election work, though next time I want to see even higher participation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattlehead Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Congrats on the announcement and election. O/CoJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorbie Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1319340983' post='2830776'] A better selection could not have been made. Chele's awesome. Congratulations to the Cult. [/quote] ^^THIS^^ Go get em, DC. Congrats to CoJ on an outstanding selection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1319387751' post='2830935'] take ODN's 13% of over 300 members [/quote] ODN has 261 members at present, and actually has quite an active community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 [quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1319506035' post='2831867'] ODN has 261 members at present[/quote] A 25% decrease in membership? The disastrous result of a foolish campaign against Justitia. [quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1319506035' post='2831867'], and actually has quite an active community. [/quote] I point you to this graphic from [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=101494&view=findpost&p=2703320"]This Week in the Network's Election XLI special coverage[/url]: [img]http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd425/TWiNetwork/TWiN2/SecGen.gif[/img] I guess I have higher standards for the term "active." I suppose if none of the 45/343 voters were any of the 82 lost members then the percentage could have gone up to 17%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1319508057' post='2831885'] A 25% decrease in membership? The disastrous result of a foolish campaign against Justitia. [/quote] *chuckles amusedly* [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1319508057' post='2831885'] I point you to this graphic from [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=101494&view=findpost&p=2703320"]This Week in the Network's Election XLI special coverage[/url]: [img]http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd425/TWiNetwork/TWiN2/SecGen.gif[/img] I guess I have higher standards for the term "active." I suppose if none of the 45/343 voters were any of the 82 lost members then the percentage could have gone up to 17%. [/quote] You do realise of course that most non-elitist alliances these days probably don't have better activity than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1319511391' post='2831910'] You do realise of course that most non-elitist alliances these days probably don't have better activity than that. [/quote] Elitist? We let Don Chele in. ODN was an example of what I think is probably typical of most democratic AAs, I picked them because I have hard numbers. Of course not every alliances is comprised of 50% ex-Presidents, senators, ministers, triumvirs, etc. That doesn't mean that mediocrity in other alliances is any less mediocre. ODN--whose democracy along with GATO's stood out in high contrast to their mortal enemy NPO's despotism--doesn't even send its members a message to let them know that elections are coming up, doesn't allow candidates or their supporters to campaign (unless the ODNista that threatened to report me to the election council for campaigning didn't know what he was talking about), doesn't allow enough time for the process given their size, and has astoundingly low participation. That is why I said "so a very few uninformed people can elect people that might otherwise lose to a better qualified opponent" (for example, Lucius losing to OsRavan) among the other pitfalls of democracy, and that is why CoJ has waited until this point in its development to introduce democracy that has been part of the plan for 2 years. Edited October 25, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) Your spy must have been doubling crossing you Schatt. In this most recent election; I received a message, was surprised at the turnout (which was very high compared to the other democratic alliances I've been in) viewed several campaign threads and spoke with all candidates, and I don't even think we have an election council. Ok, I realize on the activity part I've spent time at IAA recently so it's possible everything looks active to me. I would guesstimate around 50% of the alliance voted in these elections though. That's way off from your 17% way off its cute little pie chart. It is also a huge step up from most mass recruiter alliances. I'll admit, ODN is no GOD or Umbrella when it comes to activity, but compared to mass recruiter alliances we are probably one of the most active. I'd be willing to put our activity up against FARK, IRON, VE, or any of the other mass recruiter alliances. Considering most of your other info is off though, I'd have to say that your multi-colored circle is probably not accurate. If I was you I'd destroy that double crossing spy you hired. Also on topic: I love CoJ and congrats to you guys. . I also agree that foreign affairs usually is not a good place for democracy. It depends on if there is a high turnover at that position though. Edited October 25, 2011 by Omniscient1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drege Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Long live the Cult! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garion Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Congrats, your alliance is very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1319511662' post='2831912'] ODN--whose democracy along with GATO's stood out in high contrast to their mortal enemy NPO's despotism--doesn't even send its members a message to let them know that elections are coming up [/quote] Actually, it does. I know this first hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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