Chief Savage Man Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 To OP: shut up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1318007787' post='2819820'] You are both more proving my point than disproving it. Yes they would get decimated. The point is, they CARE that they would get decimated. Fear of your enemies is my point about the difference between them now and us (back then). We didnt fear our enemies. [/quote] I dont believe there is any fear involved. There certainly doesnt need to be to explain what they are doing. It's simply a matter of good strategy. The Legion, for the first time in a very long time perhaps, are showing both courage and intelligence. The best thing they can do, for themselves and their allies, is to refuse to call them, and if some or all of them do want in to talk them down and keep them out regardless. Not only are there not enough of them to change the outcome, most or all of their allies are still in rebuilding mode. At least one is still paying out reps ffs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1318008213' post='2819829'] Maybe, but remember that Legion has a decent chance of winning this war as it is (and a decent chance of losing it too, it is fairly even). But if they call in their allies, they're very likely to lose. The situation now is somewhat favorable, but more importantly it is extremely favorable compared to if they call in their allies. Not only for themselves, but also for their allies. Why would they turn a winnable war (where they take some damage and their allies take none) into a nearly certain loss (where they and all of their allies are destroyed)? They have no obligation to call in their allies for the entertainment of everyone else, so why should they? [/quote] Sometimes though, making a losing stand, is a much more important, and bold move, than winning. TOP is a prime example of it. They are free to handle this any way they choose. But history shows a definite precedent for what does, and does not work. I am a realist, I know every day that goes by, is a day closer to the end of the current power structure in the world. Every empire falls, its a matter of time. The trick, is not to appear incompetent or afraid. Nobody wants to ally alliances that give off those 2 auras. It is , entirely possible, that I am 100% wrong. Maybe Legion and friends can get a seat at the power table simply by waiting for fractures to occur, but in that instance, they would gain the seat as a tool of those in power(like when they were NPO puppets), rather than carry a significant voice, simply because of reputation. Add in their 2 allies that seem to get called out, Invicta and Polaris, and you get what looks like a massive vomit of bad reputations, and nobody is willing to step up and fix that. Legion, at least is making the effort, kudos to that I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1318008620' post='2819831'] Please dont feed me nonsense about the war being even. DO YOU NOT SEE THE OUTRAGE THAT zOMG its 5 alliances on 1! SIZE DOES NOT MATTER! Or something. As for your argument that they are choosing the most viable path to overturn the political scale against them, its a difference of opinion, and to be honest, neither of us can present it as fact one way or another. But I do have a history on my side. Nobody has ever improved their political position by sitting around waiting for a better time. Ask NPO how well that approach works. Ask TOP(to a lesser degree, but still semi-similar) how well that worked. The issue with Polar-Legion... is respect. Nobody respects them. That they avoid conflict does not win them respect. That they want to sit and wait till a better position appears, wont win them respect. Either way, thats my view on it. [/quote] lol You're right, it is a difference of opinion. What can NpO honestly do to improve its image at this point? Or any other Legion ally? They're disliked for personalities within the alliance, not for lack of fighting ability (though it may be part of it). Going to slaughter does not outweigh letting Legion finally earn some respect in this war whether they lose or not. There are plenty of alliances that have improved their position politically before going to war such as IRON and ODN in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor Noldorin Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Curious question: Why does the NpO have over 120 of its nations in peace mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Gunn Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1318005770' post='2819786'] Except Invicta is going to be flamed forever. They were coming in and then suddenly lost their backbone(not surprising really, have you seen how incompetent they are?) [/quote] Oh you. You honestly don't know Invicta nor me well. If Legion wants help, we will be one of the [b]first[/b] there to defend them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1318008907' post='2819835'] I dont believe there is any fear involved. There certainly doesnt need to be to explain what they are doing. It's simply a matter of good strategy. The Legion, for the first time in a very long time perhaps, are showing both courage and intelligence. The best thing they can do, for themselves and their allies, is to refuse to call them, and if some or all of them do want in to talk them down and keep them out regardless. Not only are there not enough of them to change the outcome, most or all of their allies are still in rebuilding mode. At least one is still paying out reps ffs! [/quote] I would suggest that the mass # of NpO nations in peace mode is a 100% perfect example of fear. Not even you can deny that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1318009071' post='2819836'] Sometimes though, making a losing stand, is a much more important, and bold move, than winning. TOP is a prime example of it. They are free to handle this any way they choose. But history shows a definite precedent for what does, and does not work. I am a realist, I know every day that goes by, is a day closer to the end of the current power structure in the world. Every empire falls, its a matter of time. The trick, is not to appear incompetent or afraid. Nobody wants to ally alliances that give off those 2 auras. It is , entirely possible, that I am 100% wrong. Maybe Legion and friends can get a seat at the power table simply by waiting for fractures to occur, but in that instance, they would gain the seat as a tool of those in power(like when they were NPO puppets), rather than carry a significant voice, simply because of reputation. Add in their 2 allies that seem to get called out, Invicta and Polaris, and you get what looks like a massive vomit of bad reputations, and nobody is willing to step up and fix that. Legion, at least is making the effort, kudos to that I guess. [/quote] If Legion was getting curb-stomped and their allies weren't joining, then I'd agree with you. It's an even war and their allies are not needed right now so there's no reason to harp on to them about the current war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potato Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1318008907' post='2819835'] The Legion, for the first time in a very long time perhaps, are showing both courage and intelligence. [/quote] I wouldn't go that far, to be honest. It looks more like they were poked an mocked and bullied by the entire population of Planet Bob until they finally did something. And that was after the VE treaty had expire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1318009226' post='2819842'] I would suggest that the mass # of NpO nations in peace mode is a 100% perfect example of fear. Not even you can deny that. [/quote] If NpO was at war it would be fear. As it stands you should know well enough that it can be a viable strategy as now they can decide where and when to commit their nations as the time restriction on exiting peace mode is nearing should this war explode. If they stay in peace mode like Legion did before during a war then yes it's fear, but as it stands now aren't we beyond the peace mode jokes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1318009079' post='2819837'] lol You're right, it is a difference of opinion. What can NpO honestly do to improve its image at this point? Or any other Legion ally? They're disliked for personalities within the alliance, not for lack of fighting ability (though it may be part of it). Going to slaughter does not outweigh letting Legion finally earn some respect in this war whether they lose or not. There are plenty of alliances that have improved their position politically before going to war such as IRON and ODN in the past. [/quote] Well saying they are disliked for personalities, is true for alot, but it varies from person to person. Persoanlly, being in the NPO allies channel, I find Nascarfan to be a pretty solid and decent fella. His refusal to reinvent his alliances image, is his shortcoming. I realize im not everyone, hell, to most, Im noone, but I do have a decent grasp of history and what has, and has not worked in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaTeMuP Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1318009226' post='2819842'] I would suggest that the mass # of NpO nations in peace mode is a 100% perfect example of fear. Not even you can deny that. [/quote] You can suggest what you like. I suggest it is one in the chamber and a magazine full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='potato' timestamp='1318009359' post='2819844'] I wouldn't go that far, to be honest. It looks more like they were poked an mocked and bullied by the entire population of Planet Bob until they finally did something. And that was after the VE treaty had expire. [/quote] To be fair Legion did not know that our treaty had been downgraded at the time of their declaration as we didn't publically announce it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janax Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1318009105' post='2819838'] Curious question: Why does the NpO have over 120 of its nations in peace mode? [/quote] CNTel leaked :| Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1318009071' post='2819836'] Sometimes though, making a losing stand, is a much more important, and bold move, than winning. TOP is a prime example of it. They are free to handle this any way they choose. But history shows a definite precedent for what does, and does not work. I am a realist, I know every day that goes by, is a day closer to the end of the current power structure in the world. Every empire falls, its a matter of time. The trick, is not to appear incompetent or afraid. Nobody wants to ally alliances that give off those 2 auras. It is , entirely possible, that I am 100% wrong. Maybe Legion and friends can get a seat at the power table simply by waiting for fractures to occur, but in that instance, they would gain the seat as a tool of those in power(like when they were NPO puppets), rather than carry a significant voice, simply because of reputation. Add in their 2 allies that seem to get called out, Invicta and Polaris, and you get what looks like a massive vomit of bad reputations, and nobody is willing to step up and fix that. Legion, at least is making the effort, kudos to that I guess. [/quote] Taken with your previous post about C&G taking power and forging their path to the top with an iron will, this is pretty funny. [b][i]You [/i][/b]waited until One Vision was wrecked, Q was falling apart, and for VE to finally get off NPO's lap before you made your big move. Waiting for the right time is part of planning. Edited October 7, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Vapneir Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1318009105' post='2819838'] Curious question: Why does the NpO have over 120 of its nations in peace mode? [/quote] That started when UPN was hit. It does take some time to get them in and out, so it may be nothing more than that. It could also be a hedge against a "preëmptive" attack. So I dont really know the answer to your question, only Polaris high command knows the answer really, but there are a couple of educated guesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potato Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1318009456' post='2819850'] To be fair Legion did not know that our treaty had been downgraded at the time of their declaration as we didn't publically announce it. [/quote] Maybe it is just luck then but quite a few people were aware of the downgrade so it is quite possible the information reached Legion's ears at a convenient time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1318009412' post='2819846'] Well saying they are disliked for personalities, is true for alot, but it varies from person to person. Persoanlly, being in the NPO allies channel, I find Nascarfan to be a pretty solid and decent fella. His refusal to reinvent his alliances image, is his shortcoming. I realize im not everyone, hell, to most, Im noone, but I do have a decent grasp of history and what has, and has not worked in the past. [/quote] I've been around just as long as you have if not longer, so I have a fairly decent idea as well. With that being said at this point I think it's just fair to agree to disagree on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='potato' timestamp='1318009569' post='2819858'] Maybe it is just luck then but quite a few people were aware of the downgrade so it is quite possible the information reached Legion's ears at a convenient time. [/quote] Fair enough. As far as I know Legion went in fully expecting a counter from us without knowing. Even if they did know, we still do have a treaty with Tetris so they should have known of the possibility of us coming in regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1318009456' post='2819850'] To be fair Legion did not know that our treaty had been downgraded at the time of their declaration as we didn't publically announce it. [/quote] This is supposition. Because, in the morning hours before the DoW, the fact that VE had downgraded with Tetris, was making it way around CN. So, Im sure they knew, the only issue is when they found out, and did it effect their ultimate decision. Who knows, its really moot at this point. To Sigrun: While I find Legions course to be solid, and one I would do the same in the same situation, I would not categorize it as courageous. They literally hit an alliance 1/10th their size. They did so on a solid CB, which, in and of itself, made it at least a decision that many Tetris allies had to pause about before they decided to defend. It is also not rocket science to see the math, and factor in that if they knew of VEs downgrade, that they would have a huge numbers advantage over Tetris and her 2 allies (at the time it was 2). A courageous decision, may have been to hit NSO on the same CB months ago, I might categorize that as more courageous. What Legion did, was make a right decision THIS time. What they did NOT do, was make a courageous decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1318009105' post='2819838'] Curious question: Why does the NpO have over 120 of its nations in peace mode? [/quote] Why is 15% of Basketball Ninjas in peace mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1318010191' post='2819870'] Why is 15% of Basketball Ninjas in peace mode? [/quote] 2 words(well, 1 acronym)... NBA Lockout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor Noldorin Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Alot of people are referencing the VE-Tetis downgrade and wither or not people knew about it beforehand. Do you know what would have solved that problem? Announcing the treaty downgrade on the OWF. More and more alliances are subscripting to this ridiculous notion of not announcing changes to their treaties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1318010357' post='2819874'] Alot of people are referencing the VE-Tetis downgrade and wither or not people knew about it beforehand. Do you know what would have solved that problem? Announcing the treaty downgrade on the OWF. More and more alliances are subscripting to this ridiculous notion of not announcing changes to their treaties. [/quote] MK told people not to announce treaties, because it helps them bait others into unforeseen counter attacks. DUH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1318010357' post='2819874'] Alot of people are referencing the VE-Tetis downgrade and wither or not people knew about it beforehand. Do you know what would have solved that problem? Announcing the treaty downgrade on the OWF. More and more alliances are subscripting to this ridiculous notion of not announcing changes to their treaties. [/quote] You were supposed to tell all of us again. But yea what Feanor said. Announce your damn announcements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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