Rep Repayment Plan

[Ogaden]

Example #42387 of why taking reps is a dumb idea that comes back to haunt you

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1317660709' post='2814653']
So Legacy should have caused the war to be even longer and more costly for all concerned because their allies were being crappy to them and it was time to take a principled stand? [/quote]

The war was going to end soon regardless of the reparations situation, I hope everyone realizes this now. If Legacy had been adamant about not accepting reparations, then DT would not have given in (since that was one of their sticking points), and thus the war would have concluded in a similar PR-bashed fashion. Either event, CSN's PR would be pretty screwed, DT would be pissed at CSN (as would most of the collective world), and things with Legacy would have resulted in the same fashion.

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1317661262' post='2814660']
As far as the comment made earlier in the thread about DT requesting/insisting at least some of the reps total went to Legacy instead of CSN, I have no clue about the accuracy of that statement. It would, however, make a lot of sense, and if true that was a brilliant move on the part of DT gov. If you knew you had to fork over tech but had a chance to shift some of it to an alliance you thought was more likely to be an asset to you down the road, wouldn't you try to do the same thing?[/quote]

I don't think DT gave it that much foresight (I could be wrong); it was more so a "DT attacked Legacy directly, not CSN, sooooo why should we pay CSN?" type of deal.

[quote]CSN in particular had also done good things for Legacy in the past (such as protecting the AA when it first formed, if memory serves). If CSN took Legacy's blatant "screw you" personally, they had ample reason to do so.
[/quote]

Held a MDP with The Mafia (Sarm's alliance that preceded The Immortals).
Held a protectorate with The Immortals and helped them substantially there.
Held a MDoAP [upgraded] treaty with The Immortals.
Legacy is created, MDoAP is reestablished, we enter war on each other's behalf.

That's our history in a nutshell.

EDIT:

I should also mention in that history, that extends back to 2007.

Edited October 3, 2011 by SpacingOutMan

[RandomInterrupt]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1317660544' post='2814651']
Very early on in this thread, while responding to RV, I said the choice of the term forced was a bad choice on my part
[/quote]
I missed that. When I see a blue post my eyes just unfocus. It's a self-defense mechanism. The changing of the definition of Sovereignty is more than just a Legacy-in-this-thread thing though and part of a larger issue. So again, nothing against Legacy from me. You ultimately did a good thing here.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1317669096' post='2814724']
The war was going to end soon regardless of the reparations situation, I hope everyone realizes this now. If Legacy had been adamant about not accepting reparations, then DT would not have given in (since that was one of their sticking points), and thus the war would have concluded in a similar PR-bashed fashion. Either event, CSN's PR would be pretty screwed, DT would be pissed at CSN (as would most of the collective world), and things with Legacy would have resulted in the same fashion.



I don't think DT gave it that much foresight (I could be wrong); it was more so a "DT attacked Legacy directly, not CSN, sooooo why should we pay CSN?" type of deal.



Held a MDP with The Mafia (Sarm's alliance that preceded The Immortals).
Held a protectorate with The Immortals and helped them substantially there.
Held a MDoAP [upgraded] treaty with The Immortals.
Legacy is created, MDoAP is reestablished, we enter war on each other's behalf.

That's our history in a nutshell.

EDIT:

I should also mention in that history, that extends back to 2007.
[/quote]

I dont think we held a MDP as mafia...I didnt think it got past PIAT...either way thats irrelevant.

You can say what you wish about our history. You cannot, in good faith, consider CSN of the past, hell even when you first signed with Legacy, and the CSN that stands today the same alliance. Total different alliance philosphy, government, attitude, and every/anything else. HB split off for a reason. The CSN that you stand for SOM is dead.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1317670476' post='2814731']
I dont think we held a MDP as mafia...I didnt think it got past PIAT...either way thats irrelevant.[/quote]

Oh really? It was at least in the talks then.

[quote]You can say what you wish about our history. You cannot, in good faith, consider CSN of the past, hell even when you first signed with Legacy, and the CSN that stands today the same alliance. Total different alliance philosphy, government, attitude, and every/anything else. HB split off for a reason. The CSN that you stand for SOM is dead.
[/quote]

No one can make the claim that their alliance is exactly the same as it was a year ago, though. Different leaders, demographics among membership, treaties, etc. Wasn't questioning your history; was just pointing out that there was a history between us.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1317663233' post='2814681']
Legacy wasnt FORCED per se to take the reps but in the interest of closing that front down I believe they took them. IMO if they would have refused reps those negotiations would have taken at least another week or two to conclude. For those saying they could have left the battlefield your right they could have and left an ally on the field. I dont believe Legacy to be the type of AA to do this. It was an all around $%&@ed up situation. Legacy did what they had to do at the time and now they are simply following through with what they wanted originally. Good show Sarm.

o/ Legacy
[/quote]
Bud, i love ya. but if you were acting like a complete retard i'd walk away from ya in a heartbeat. Treaties need an anti-retard clause..lets call it the UPN clause

@SOM. Something ive wondered since you guys said you wanted reps. Why? and why so much? Because of an ODP?(hit me up on IRC if you gotta)

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1317642845' post='2814561']
That doesn't exactly justify why DT currently holds a treaty with Legacy and CSN doesn't. Irrespective of how DT wanted the terms to play out, if CSN hadn't been so aggressive in presenting them in the first place, then they might still have a treaty and a friendship with Legacy. Nice try spinning that to make DT look like the villains though.
[/quote]
Lol wow, really? Everyone is talking "CSN [u]forced[/u] Legacy to accept reps" when no, we didn't. I corrected that and [i]I'm[/i] trying to spin something? Legacy took one for the team on it (in a sense), yes, but they weren't forced to do it.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1317650137' post='2814597']
I'm fairly certain, and a representative of Legacy can correct me if I'm wrong, but Legacy showed GOD and CSN the exact level of respect in that cancellation thread that GOD and CSN had been showed to them previously.
[/quote]
I'll correct you instead. CSN and Legacy got along great up until that cancellation. There were bumps in the road, of course, but no relationship is perfect. We thought they were worked out, but obviously Legacy had more issues they felt they couldn't talk with us about.

[size="1"](By the way, I'm talking "we" because I was in CSN gov at the time. I obviously no longer represent CSN or speak for them.)[/size]

[wickedj]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1317670476' post='2814731']
You can say what you wish about our history. You cannot, in good faith, consider CSN of the past, hell even when you first signed with Legacy, and the CSN that stands today the same alliance. Total different alliance philosphy, government, attitude, and every/anything else. HB split off for a reason. The CSN that you stand for SOM is dead.
[/quote]
Nail. Head. Hit.

(yeah i know, double post..bite me)

[Amossio]

the moral of the story is if CSN and Xiph had not acted like egoistic a**holes none of this would have happened.

classy move legacy.

[Maverick87]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1317671484' post='2814743']
bite me
[/quote]

I will take you up on this.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1317671393' post='2814741']
@SOM. Something ive wondered since you guys said you wanted reps. Why? and why so much? Because of an ODP?(hit me up on IRC if you gotta)
[/quote]

I'll answer that here.

[b]Why?[/b]

We didn't initially want reparations; we wanted to make sure that DT wasn't allowed to just jump into the war, fight a few days, and then back out because it was most convenient for them. It wasn't the precedent we wanted to set. However, that initial "charge" got skewed & twisted to the point that the reparations became actual policy and not just a rhetorical device (the fact that we resorted to even using reparations as a rhetorical way of saying "we want you to stay in war for X amount of days" was incredibly ridiculous to begin with). That change from rhetoric to policy, though, rose from a fairly large amount of anger, frustration, and (worst of all) swelled pride.

[b]Why so much?[/b]

As said before, it was a rhetorical device that went horribly, horribly, [i]horribly[/i] wrong. It doesn't change anything that it wasn't initially intended because it happened, so I also don't want people to think I am trying to be a revisionist. We were pretty split on what we wanted to do with reparations (some wanted to just forgive them altogether, others wanted to enforce them, etc.), but it ultimately came down to an executive decision; fueled by a pretty significant bit of pride and hubris, we ended up staying the course despite the obvious consequences.

[b]Because of an ODP?[/b]

Goose made a gaffe. That's really all that can be said about that; our position was that DT entered the war optionally and, as stated earlier, we didn't want to set a precedent allowing alliances to hit-and-run our allies. I guess the way Goose said it (I don't remember the explicit words he used in the logs, though he may have just straight-up said that the ODP was the reason), it seemed like it was because of the ODP itself, which isn't the case directly.

I'm under no illusion that we will have to pay our stupidity fee/tax in the foreseeable future for what we did, but that's life I suppose. I'm also not trying to revise history here: we took unnecessary reparations from DT; we severely botched peace discussions on multiple occasions; we pressured Legacy into pushing reparations as well; we gave Legacy many "words" in terms of their continuity with the rest of the front (they were telling DT and co. things and then relaying them differently to CSN and co.); we acted like asshats on the OWF in the DT thread; we made at least five additional mistakes that I can't think of right now because I am studying for an exam.

[b]CSN[/b] messed up. Period.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1317671470' post='2814742']
Lol wow, really? Everyone is talking "CSN [u]forced[/u] Legacy to accept reps" when no, we didn't. I corrected that and [i]I'm[/i] trying to spin something? Legacy took one for the team on it (in a sense), yes, but they weren't forced to do it.


I'll correct you instead. CSN and Legacy got along great up until that cancellation. There were bumps in the road, of course, but no relationship is perfect. We thought they were worked out, but obviously Legacy had more issues they felt they couldn't talk with us about.

[size="1"](By the way, I'm talking "we" because I was in CSN gov at the time. I obviously no longer represent CSN or speak for them.)[/size][/quote]

You may have been CSN, but rather clearly your ally saw a relationship that deteriorated over time as CSN changed. There was no sudden epiphany that CSN was bad company and an immediate cancellation ensued.

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1317672774' post='2814749']
[b]CSN[/b] messed up. Period.[/quote]

No, dude...the captain of the [i]Titanic[/i] messed up. The ground crew for the [i]Hindenburg[/i] messed up. What you did rates a stronger wording: FUBAR.

Edited October 3, 2011 by ChairmanHal

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1317672802' post='2814750']
You may have been CSN, but rather clearly your ally saw a relationship that deteriorated over time as CSN changed. There was no sudden epiphany that CSN was bad company and an immediate cancellation ensued.
[/quote]

To be honest, Gibs isn't that far off base. The cancellation (initiated by Legacy) was literally out of the blue. The only other "real" talk we had regarding our actual relationship was right after the war when we hashed out how we really felt about the reparations. Between then and right before the cancellation, things seemed normal actually. Obviously that is my own perspective and others in CSN or in Legacy had different experiences (different conversations, etc. etc.), but I was actually surprised by the cancellation in all honesty.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1317672802' post='2814750']
No, dude...the captain of the [i]Titanic[/i] messed up. The ground crew for the [i]Hindenburg[/i] messed up. What you did rates a stronger wording: FUBAR.
[/quote]

FUBAR indicates a worst-case scenario; is DT disbanded? Did we implement a viceroy? Did we force them to vote for a CSN-rep for the Black senate? Did we force them to be an indefinite tech-farm? Did we force certain people out of government?

Worst than messed up? Sure, an exercise in semantics. As bad as FUBAR? Hardly.

Edited October 3, 2011 by SpacingOutMan

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1317673084' post='2814753']
To be honest, Gibs isn't that far off base. The cancellation (initiated by Legacy) was literally out of the blue. The only other "real" talk we had regarding our actual relationship was right after the war when we hashed out how we really felt about the reparations. Between then and right before the cancellation, things seemed normal actually. Obviously that is my own perspective and others in CSN or in Legacy had different experiences (different conversations, etc. etc.), but I was actually surprised by the cancellation in all honesty.
[/quote]
The amount of time I spent talking to anyone in CSN gov was literally cut by atleast 3/4th the amount 2 months prior to the cancellation

[SpacingOutMan]

Fair enough. We did know, though, that you guys weren't happy about the reparations. That we can agree on.

[OOC: I was also dealing with RL issues at the time so I probably missed a lot of that to be fair]

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1317673294' post='2814754']
The amount of time I spent talking to anyone in CSN gov was literally cut by atleast 3/4th the amount 2 months prior to the cancellation
[/quote]
I talked to you at least once a week, and Liz talked to you nearly daily. I also made sure to keep our embassy active (on your forums), a favor that wasn't returned.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1317673663' post='2814756']
I talked to you at least once a week, and Liz talked to you nearly daily. I also made sure to keep our embassy active (on your forums), a favor that wasn't returned.
[/quote]
No, Liz and I talked daily beforehand, I can specfically remember one point in time when she queried me and asked if I was ok, as we hadn't talked for atleast 2 weeks

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1317673800' post='2814758']
No, Liz and I talked daily beforehand, I can specfically remember one point in time when she queried me and asked if I was ok, as we hadn't talked for atleast 2 weeks
[/quote]
Because you had OOC stuff going on, and told her not to worry about it.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1317669096' post='2814724']
The war was going to end soon regardless of the reparations situation, I hope everyone realizes this now. If Legacy had been adamant about not accepting reparations, then DT would not have given in (since that was one of their sticking points), and thus the war would have concluded in a similar PR-bashed fashion. Either event, CSN's PR would be pretty screwed, DT would be pissed at CSN (as would most of the collective world), and things with Legacy would have resulted in the same fashion.[/quote]

At the time, no one but CSN apparently knew this. If DT had any sort of inkling that the war would have ended in another week or 2, we would have fought it out instead of giving reps to CSN. IIRC, DT honestly thought that GOD or some other SF ally was going to be on their way to help out if peace was not given soon. RnR had already hit LoSS to help CSN force peace.



[quote]I don't think DT gave it that much foresight (I could be wrong); it was more so a "DT attacked Legacy directly, not CSN, sooooo why should we pay CSN?" type of deal.
[/quote]

It was not only that but also the fact that DT liked Legacy and had absolutely no issue with Legacy even during the war. DT felt that Legacy and only Legacy actually deserved reps and thus, DT stipulated that some of the reps had to go to Legacy.

Legacy could have conducted separate peace talks with DT and left as Brain did but that would have left CSN and DT still on the battlefield. Legacy was loyal to CSN though and refused to leave them on the battlefield and since CSN could not show the same loyalty and drop the reps, Legacy had to take reps so that their ally CSN and their friends in DT, could finally achieve peace.

Again, I point out that from what I could tell, no one other than CSN felt that the war would end anytime soon. DT at least felt that another SF alliance was preparing to enter the war and Legacy, not sure what they knew exactly, but they refused to leave the battlefield without CSN since CSN came in because of Legacy.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1317675166' post='2814765']
At the time, no one but CSN apparently knew this. If DT had any sort of inkling that the war would have ended in another week or 2, we would have fought it out instead of giving reps to CSN. IIRC, DT honestly thought that GOD or some other SF ally was going to be on their way to help out if peace was not given soon. RnR had already hit LoSS to help CSN force peace. [/quote]

Well, I am only speculating here. I would imagine, though, that the terms of "peace" would have been extremely different a week or two later. We were getting whipped pretty bad by your upper tier, so we really couldn't withstand a helluva lot more. And I think there was an unwritten agreement between the both of us (totally verbal and nothing official; just a "mutual feeling") that we didn't want it to expand beyond what it already was in the CSN-DT front (after it was all said and done).

[quote]Legacy could have conducted separate peace talks with DT and left as Brain did but that would have left CSN and DT still on the battlefield. Legacy was loyal to CSN though and refused to leave them on the battlefield and since CSN could not show the same loyalty and drop the reps, Legacy had to take reps so that their ally CSN and their friends in DT, could finally achieve peace.[/quote]

Most likely, I agree, but I also do believe that had Legacy left, that feeling of sudden isolation would have been very overwhelming, so either we would have brought someone in, or the war would have concluded shortly thereafter. Again, totally speculating on the "what ifs".

[quote]Again, I point out that from what I could tell, no one other than CSN felt that the war would end anytime soon. DT at least felt that another SF alliance was preparing to enter the war and Legacy, not sure what they knew exactly, but they refused to leave the battlefield without CSN since CSN came in because of Legacy.
[/quote]

While we had SF!'s support as allies, and I believe even Xiphosis told Liz that the reparations were way too high. They supported us, but they didn't agree with our reparations decision. Nor did the bulk of our allies, hence the chain-cancellations that occurred in the subsequent months of war.

[NoFish]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1317650137' post='2814597']
I'm fairly certain, and a representative of Legacy can correct me if I'm wrong, but Legacy showed GOD and CSN the exact level of respect in that cancellation thread that GOD and CSN had been showed to them previously.
[/quote]
I would challenge any Legacy representative to show anywhere that GOD was disrespectful to Legacy prior to the cancellation. Because quite frankly, GOD thought we were on good terms when it happened and Legacy has yet to show us any justification for why they canceled in the first place, much less the parting shot they took at us.

[Jaiar]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1317676959' post='2814789']
I would challenge any Legacy representative to show anywhere that GOD was disrespectful to Legacy prior to the cancellation. Because quite frankly, GOD thought we were on good terms when it happened and Legacy has yet to show us any justification for why they canceled in the first place, much less the parting shot they took at us.
[/quote]
Haven't you noticed? To get in with the cool kids you have to take shots at those everyone is gunning for already or support or hail or wub former enemies in their announcements. GOD/SF is not cool anymore so Legacy did a 180 and are now trying to distance themselves from you guys. I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you guys should pick on Legion; it worked for NSO.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1317676763' post='2814783']
Well, I am only speculating here. I would imagine, though, that the terms of "peace" would have been extremely different a week or two later. We were getting whipped pretty bad by your upper tier, so we really couldn't withstand a helluva lot more. And I think there was an unwritten agreement between the both of us (totally verbal and nothing official; just a "mutual feeling") that we didn't want it to expand beyond what it already was in the CSN-DT front (after it was all said and done).[/quote]

Honestly, I do not know about any unwritten agreement about it not expanding.


[quote]Most likely, I agree, but I also do believe that had Legacy left, that feeling of sudden isolation would have been very overwhelming, so either we would have brought someone in, or the war would have concluded shortly thereafter. Again, totally speculating on the "what ifs".[/quote]

This is a what if, like you stated, so I have no clue what ya'll would have done had Legacy left.



[quote]While we had SF!'s support as allies, and I believe even Xiphosis told Liz that the reparations were way too high. They supported us, but they didn't agree with our reparations decision. Nor did the bulk of our allies, hence the chain-cancellations that occurred in the subsequent months of war.
[/quote]

That, to my knowledge, was never known by anyone outside of SF. Most, iirc, thought Xiph came up with the terms and this, again to my knowledge, is the first time that it was mentioned that Xiph said the reps were to high.

The chain cancellations came after the war and again, none of those feelings were known by DT.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1317676763' post='2814783']
While we had SF!'s support as allies, and I believe even Xiphosis told Liz that the reparations were way too high. They supported us, but they didn't agree with our reparations decision.[/quote]

The hell?

[Lusitan]

Legacy, I know you're just getting started with Mjölnir but, you might want to [i]clean up[/i] your face now...