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Complaining and Grieving


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[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1317103390' post='2809501']
Its hard to believe C&G was once the formidable bloc that led the charge against Q. How times have changed. :lol1:
[/quote]

Well if you want to test us we're all bored over here. I mean we're sort of waiting for SF to screw the pooch but if Duckroll is getting antsy I mean we'll take whatever we can get. I mean CnG hasn't lost a war since NoCB and I think victories over alliances like NPO at the end of their prime and TOP at the height of their power certainly top whatever victories BAPs has ever had...actually I can't think of a single BAPs victory now that I think of it. I mean heck you even lost when TDSM8 was on your side back in the day.

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[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1317049601' post='2808892']
What. The. !$@$. Are you talking about?
[/quote]
Have you ever started anything? No. Have you consistently followed others into wars despite not having a clue about what's going on? Yes.

Sounds like a lackey to me.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1317086383' post='2809273']
TDSM8 merged into MK
[/quote]
Not the second time, which is actually the relevant one

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[quote name='Ai Entity' timestamp='1317054007' post='2808933']
And so our secret plan to annex GATO begins to unfold.
Athens already fell, the kitties are next. B-)
[/quote]
We have more tech than you :smug:

o/ All

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[quote name='The Corrupt Teacher' timestamp='1317103778' post='2809503']
I mean [...] I mean [...] I mean [...] I mean
[/quote]

I guess you really really mean it?



[quote]
BAPs
[/quote]

Welcome home to GOONs, BAPs [img]http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r7/Louisa00/emot-love.gif[/img]

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[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1317086383' post='2809273']
TDSM8 merged into MK and you forgot Greenland Republic which merged with Athens and =LOST= to form TLR. Also, you forgot Federation of Buccaneers. Forgot who they merged into.
[/quote]

TDSM8 officially disbanded although many went to MK. The others were not founders.

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1317090180' post='2809333']
Well aware of that, doesn't mean you're the same alliances you were before the merger, all those viewpoints collided into something that's different. Something I do not like nearly as much.

CnG is dead, what's left is a bloc that is fine on its own, the signatories get along and they seem to have common goals, but it's not CnG and probably never will be again.
[/quote]

Oh boy...

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1316986087' post='2808410']
So I guess if you define "further for their friends than most other alliances" as less than two rounds of war while their allies get another 5 weeks of war, then you are correct. But that's not a very good definition.

GATO has shown war after war after war that GATO is out for Number 1 and no one else.

So, congratulations to GATO for getting a chair at a serious bloc, you're nice guys and all, but you're not very good at honoring treaties. Condolences to NPO that it took so long for an unholy union between ODN and GATO that now you're on the same side and can't have some real fun.
[/quote]

GATO followed their treaty and came to IAA's defense in a war that they most assuredly would not win. We have and we remain proud to call them allies. And we trust all of C&G will as well.

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[quote name='Melancholy Culkin' timestamp='1317082261' post='2809226']
The ODN digs are more than a little stale at this point. You can do better than this.
[/quote]
The dig was based on events from July 2011. I can't help that ODN sucked for 4 years before that.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1317085769' post='2809261']
Semantics. Don't pick apart my wording, address my point.
[/quote]
I did address your point. You implied that after a paltry 1.5 war cycles GATO had to leave IAA to burn for 5 more weeks because they had some sort of treaty conflict due to their connections to ODN and Athens:
[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1317016966' post='2808813']GATO was faced with a very difficult choice last war. They had treaty connections with ODN and Athens, and IAA who were defending NpO. They announced that they were prepared to defend whoever activated their treaties with them. That is honourable. Besides that, I know first hand that GATO are friendly and awesome people. We honestly don't care about their detractors.[/quote]
But that is a ridiculous assertion made out of your self-professed blind love of GATO ("we honestly don't care about their detractors" not to mention your own membership in GATO). The only reason that GATO's treaty obligations to ODN or AThens would have mattered is if they felt like defending IAA would jeopardize this announcement, which, frankly, makes GATO look like crap in my opinion. Their mutual defense obligations to either alliance were not active at the time because ODN was an aggressor and Athens was an aggressor. Their defensive obligatios to IAA did matter because IAA was in a defensive position.

But, as I said, as a member of ODN which called its mutual aggression with MK against TPF, 64Digitis, and CoJ a defense of MK, I would not expect you to understand the difference between aggression and defense. After all, there are party lines to toe.

The assertion in the OP that GATO is "committed to go further for their friends than most other alliances" is demonstrably false not just throughout their history, but as recently as the last war; no more, no less. It doesn't mater how nice GATO is, how nice its members are, how old it is, how democratic it is, how much they suffered in the past: GATO knows no commitment to its allies.

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1317156268' post='2809818']
And again, I don't dislike GATO or anything, and I'm perfectly glad they're in C&G now. I'm just saying I don't really know where that judgement of GATO's track record comes from.
[/quote]
As a long time GATO-er and having been there for many of the wars, I almost have to agree with Schatt. Not that GATO wont defend its allies or things like that but there are times you need to question how much effort they put into it, and how they can rank allies.

Not that I agree or disagree with how things happened with the last war or the reasons behind it all, I just think when it comes to war they can rush decisions. Not sure the best way to say it, almost impulsive. They have good intentions but they can just botch it all.

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[quote]I would also like to add, just from a factual standpoint that it wasn't just IAA that was "left behind" by GATO in the last war. It was all of Synergy as well.[/quote]

[quote]GATO knows no commitment to its allies.[/quote]

Look, I'm sure your ignorant and bitter posting is a lot of fun, but I'd really rather you didn't get both all over our nice thread.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1317155566' post='2809812']
The dig was based on events from July 2011. I can't help that ODN sucked for 4 years before that.


I did address your point. You implied that after a paltry 1.5 war cycles GATO had to leave IAA to burn for 5 more weeks because they had some sort of treaty conflict due to their connections to ODN and Athens:

But that is a ridiculous assertion made out of your self-professed blind love of GATO ("we honestly don't care about their detractors" not to mention your own membership in GATO). The only reason that GATO's treaty obligations to ODN or AThens would have mattered is if they felt like defending IAA would jeopardize this announcement, which, frankly, makes GATO look like crap in my opinion. Their mutual defense obligations to either alliance were not active at the time because ODN was an aggressor and Athens was an aggressor. Their defensive obligatios to IAA did matter because IAA was in a defensive position.

But, as I said, as a member of ODN which called its mutual aggression with MK against TPF, 64Digitis, and CoJ a defense of MK, I would not expect you to understand the difference between aggression and defense. After all, there are party lines to toe.

The assertion in the OP that GATO is "committed to go further for their friends than most other alliances" is demonstrably false not just throughout their history, but as recently as the last war; no more, no less. It doesn't mater how nice GATO is, how nice its members are, how old it is, how democratic it is, how much they suffered in the past: GATO knows no commitment to its allies.
[/quote]

First of all, we considered IAA's actions to also be on an aggressive side of a war. We found NpO to be the aggressors so if what you say is true for ODN and Athens, and it is, then the same goes for IAA...at least from our viewpoint. To be honest going to war for IAA was against our charter at the time in that regard. Had it been anyone else besides a Synergy ally I doubt we would have went in for Polar's side...hell ask NSO. Couple that with how much we really don't like NpO just for a kicker.

So, consider that point first of all. Second, consider that the most contact we had with IAA was with Omniscientone and you start to see how our heart was not at all in the fight from the beginning. Omni is not at all liked in GATO and him being the person we had to try to talk sense to everyday was basically a !@#$@#$ disaster. Had it not been Omni we probably would have stuck it out longer because I doubt the absolutes that came out of his mouth would have been pronounced.

Let's discuss those absolutes. They knew we didn't like Polar, we told them we felt Polar were the aggressors, and told them it may not even be legal for us to go in. They said we go anyway. We said fine we'll go because it's you. Then Omni says things like IAA will be staying in as long as Polar is in...which is admirable if you like the guys and they didn't do anything wrong..and maybe even if they did mess up. However, GATO had pals on both sides and we knew Polar was in for a real long fight. We had no intention of burning down with everyone in some sort of suicide pact for Polar's sake. No !@#$@#$ chance regardless of who the ally was. IAA chose to tie their fate to Polaris and frankly GATO was not going to do that, even by proxy, and probably never will.

So we went out and got guarantees of all of our allies receiving white peace in all conflicts and decided it was time to leave. It was never about the damage we were taking. GATO has suffered far worse in her time. It was basically about how we felt about the situation from the get go, Omni's presence, IAAs stance that they would die with Polar if need be, and the peace of mind that our allies had white peace when they wanted it. All of it together made the decision to leave pretty elementary. Could we have stuck around for awhile longer...sure i guess but there really would have been no point and personally I was done dealing with Omni.

To go against our own charter and deal with Omni as long as we did I think shows how much we do care for IAA. I believe if Omni had not been there saying things like they wanted to die for Polar we would have stuck around a lot longer. I guess you just have to understand everything that was going on and how we felt about it. I don't expect that from you or anyone.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1317156268' post='2809818']
And again, I don't dislike GATO or anything, and I'm perfectly glad they're in C&G now. I'm just saying I don't really know where that judgement of GATO's track record comes from.
[/quote]

Translation: [i]"And again, I don't dislike GATO or anything, it's just that this thread wasn't about ME!"[/i]

-Craig

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1317155566' post='2809812']
But, as I said, as a member of ODN which called its mutual aggression with MK against TPF, 64Digitis, and CoJ a defense of MK, I would not expect you to understand the difference between aggression and defense. After all, there are party lines to toe.
[/quote]

Haha, yeah, if there's one thing I'm really [i]known[/i] for it's toeing the party line and doing what I'm told. That's why I'm so universally loved!! :v:

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[quote name='KahlanRahl' timestamp='1317157328' post='2809828']
I would also like to add, just from a factual standpoint that it wasn't just IAA that was "left behind" by GATO in the last war. It was all of Synergy as well. :ph34r:
[/quote]

TIO is honestly the last alliance that has a leg to stand on with regard to calling people out for being "left behind". How long were your treaty partners who were directly attacked in the war after you guys bailed?

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1317161616' post='2809865']
First of all, we considered IAA's actions to also be on an aggressive side of a war. We found NpO to be the aggressors so if what you say is true for ODN and Athens, and it is, then the same goes for IAA...at least from our viewpoint. To be honest going to war for IAA was against our charter at the time in that regard. Had it been anyone else besides a Synergy ally I doubt we would have went in for Polar's side...hell ask NSO. Couple that with how much we really don't like NpO just for a kicker.

So, consider that point first of all. Second, consider that the most contact we had with IAA was with Omniscientone and you start to see how our heart was not at all in the fight from the beginning. Omni is not at all liked in GATO and him being the person we had to try to talk sense to everyday was basically a !@#$@#$ disaster. Had it not been Omni we probably would have stuck it out longer because I doubt the absolutes that came out of his mouth would have been pronounced.

Let's discuss those absolutes. They knew we didn't like Polar, we told them we felt Polar were the aggressors, and told them it may not even be legal for us to go in. They said we go anyway. We said fine we'll go because it's you. Then Omni says things like IAA will be staying in as long as Polar is in...which is admirable if you like the guys and they didn't do anything wrong..and maybe even if they did mess up. However, GATO had pals on both sides and we knew Polar was in for a real long fight. We had no intention of burning down with everyone in some sort of suicide pact for Polar's sake. No !@#$@#$ chance regardless of who the ally was. IAA chose to tie their fate to Polaris and frankly GATO was not going to do that, even by proxy, and probably never will.

So we went out and got guarantees of all of our allies receiving white peace in all conflicts and decided it was time to leave. It was never about the damage we were taking. GATO has suffered far worse in her time. It was basically about how we felt about the situation from the get go, Omni's presence, IAAs stance that they would die with Polar if need be, and the peace of mind that our allies had white peace when they wanted it. All of it together made the decision to leave pretty elementary. Could we have stuck around for awhile longer...sure i guess but there really would have been no point and personally I was done dealing with Omni.

To go against our own charter and deal with Omni as long as we did I think shows how much we do care for IAA. I believe if Omni had not been there saying things like they wanted to die for Polar we would have stuck around a lot longer. I guess you just have to understand everything that was going on and how we felt about it. I don't expect that from you or anyone.
[/quote]

I'm not a doctor or anything but when we hit an alliance generally when their MD partners get called in it is an act of defense, no?

Although I do agree with you that Omni is a terrible leader.

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[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1317166163' post='2809933']
TIO is honestly the last alliance that has a leg to stand on with regard to calling people out for being "left behind". How long were your treaty partners who were directly attacked in the war after you guys bailed?
[/quote]

It's also rather baffling considering everyone within Synergy gave it their approval at the time. Still, the past appears to be hazy for some people.

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[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1317166163' post='2809933']
I'm not a doctor or anything but when we hit an alliance generally when their MD partners get called in it is an act of defense, no?

Although I do agree with you that Omni is a terrible leader.
[/quote]

Well in GATO we liked to look at the original CB for the entire war and choose the side who we believe is in the right. Then everyone on the side of the alliance in the right is playing defense those who are wrong on the aggressive. Take when NpO hit \m/ in BiPolar we saw that as Polar aggression and did not enter on behalf of NSO. This last war we saw Polar as the aggressors again and usually would not have entered on their side at all but hey it was IAA. Before a few months ago it was charter law that we had to be on the "defensive" side. We have since removed that language to allow us to go to war for whatever reason we wish.

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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1317167416' post='2809947']
It's also rather baffling considering everyone within Synergy gave it their approval at the time. Still, the past appears to be hazy for some people.
[/quote]
Laslo were you in the talks for it? I know I was, wasnt too smooth.

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