Is it Ragnarok yet?

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1316447630' post='2803771']
Although it should have been around sooner, White Peace is a relatively new concept that became mainstream as a reaction to extortive peace terms. Before Karma, alliances would still be able to get out early but would find themselves paying reps.
[/quote]
We gave white peace even before Karma ...but those Siths marketed it better meh.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1316461948' post='2803878']
Don't look at us, it's someone else's turn.
[/quote]
Emphatically this, somebody else do it.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1316461948' post='2803878']
Don't look at us, it's someone else's turn.
[/quote]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1316619333' post='2805308']
Emphatically this, somebody else do it.
[/quote]
I take it Pandora's Box is just going to sit there?

Disappointing.

[xR1 Fatal Instinct]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1316428649' post='2803632']
Dunno, maybe ask KaitlinK?

Or if you want to assure war, go talk to Rampage3?

edit: whassamatter? cant wait for winter?
[/quote]
He's in Valhalla.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='xR1 Fatal Instinct' timestamp='1316636022' post='2805426']
He's in Valhalla.
[/quote]

He's making a reference to the thread title. Ragnarok and such.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1316619333' post='2805308']
Emphatically this, somebody else do it.
[/quote]

You got mad at me for trying to start something using my (patent pending) Wolfpack mind control device.

[xR1 Fatal Instinct]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1316636499' post='2805434']
He's making a reference to the thread title. Ragnarok and such.
[/quote]
That makes more sense :v

/me watches it fly over his head.

[Duncan King]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1316513229' post='2804444']
If you don't want to join the politics and thus the war aspect of CN, there are a few easy solution: join a neutral alliance, retire completely or just quit.

I also like how you suddenly grew a conscience when you got on the wrong end of the curbstomp. You and your friends were quite happy tonking people when you had the power. And you and your allies took reps for it: don't make it sound like you were doing a service to the community as opposed to the rulers of today being the root of all evil. Nations are bigger, warchests last longer wars are bigger and last longer, reps are bigger and last longer: it's as simple as that.
[/quote]
I'm working on the first part, actually, but I still have obligations where I am. I've always liked Grey Council and it's currently the only alliance I'd go to if I wasn't TFD.

I know you love pinning me as one of the "bad guys" but I've always been a dove or at least a utilitarian/pragmatist. I have only personally received reparations once, voted in favor of requiring reps twice, and issued a single ZI order once. I personally received 100 tech from GPA in terms of their reparations and I still feel bad about it. I also came to really like GPA and if they didn't has as strict of a gag order as they do, I'd consider joining them. I have requested reparations twice. The first was 1000 tech from the Shadow Republic in compensation for poaching NATO's protectorate. I'm really bad at following through on this so I think I only ended up trying to collect 750 or so. The second was when I was top government in NATO and was a Continuum representative. I would have let GPA off with 300 million in reparations and no other terms. I wish I'd have argued for White Peace but the truth is that I had not heard of it at that time. I was, of course, outvoted, but that episode is interesting in that Slayer99 agreed with me that the reparations requirement was too high. I issued a ZI order against a nation while I was in NATO. Looking back now, I don't remember what he actually did but what makes that episode notable to me was the fact that the individual that we ZIed ended up being a reroll of someone who had been a good friend of mine in a previous life.

I've never been a war hawk. Sure I like knocking things around eventually but once I get my shots in and the other party gets theirs in, I'm fine. I don't like collecting reparations because those just prolong the inconvenience of war. If I'd heard of White Peace earlier, I would have advocated for it but the truth is that I hadn't heard of it before UJP/Karma. I'd only seen wars end with reps and surrender terms. In the alliances that I've been in, I've always been an advocate for fair surrender terms and I've personally advocated against extortive reps and P/EZI. The side that I happen to be on doesn't change anything.

You'll probably say that if you were so against what your allies were doing before Karma, why didn't you leave? Well, the answer to that is that for me, loyalty to my alliance and my allies has always been more important to me than furthering my own personal beliefs. It's the reason I didn't leave Zenith to join Vox despite the fact that I agreed with them. At the time, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=70&showentry=648"]I wrote this blog[/url] which details my viewpoint.

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1316562659' post='2804860']
There will be a war as soon as MK, feel they should have another go at NPO/NpO.......... or someone else that might upset them.

One thing that is a known fact in this world, the weaker alliance's suck up to the power alliances and the ones in power will abuse such mindless following to their own will, NPO did it for years and now its the time of Mushroom Kingdom and just like NPO, MK are using the support of their allies to enforce their own will over the mindless following.
[/quote]

It's natural. Empires rise and fall. NPO had what, three years (really don't remember)? MK's had at least two. I don't think they've angered enough people to inspire a power shift like Karma, but they will eventually if they don't fade themselves (like Rome).

[quote name='Gen Lee' timestamp='1316583382' post='2805158']
Good post.

Made me think of two things which are kind of oposites.

First of all, I don't know if you're still an alliance leader or not, but if your tired of being chained into X war, why not make all treaties ODP or cancel all treaties and really only get involved in a conflict when you want and on which side you want? I'm not being sarcastic or snarky at all just thinking out loud about a CN that will never exist but would be cool to see. It would be neat but would never be implemented to have a rule that each alliance can only have X MA/DP treaties. Would make things less of a CF and you would see some interesting matchups possibly.

Second thing I thought of is how much fun it is to be the opressor. As short lived as that time was for me in \m/ from Feb 07 to disbandment, we were helping NPO curbstomp people for the hell of it and it was fun. So what I'm saying WWNPOD? If you have enough power falsify a CB and have some fun. I mean GPA got beat down somehow...beating down a neutral alliance would never fly in this holier than though age we live in today.
[/quote]

I'm happily retired. I keep the lights on at TFD, that's it. I don't have the interest, time, or desire to be active in shaping politics in CN anymore. (OOC: Done with school and spending time I would have spent on CN searching for a "real job" or exercising and I've also had a medical issue that's taken a lot of time).

I also can't/won't hit updates and haven't been able to for some time. I was so sleep deprived during the wars of February 2008 that I fell asleep at the wheel while on the way with school and narrowly missed hitting a pole. I made the decision then that my hobby wouldn't interfere with my sleep patterns. If I get off work or am otherwise up around update, I'll hit it, but I don't stay up for update anymore.

I agree with what you said about managing treaties. TFD has only one chaining MDoAP (with NATO), the rest are non chaining. Personally, I think they should all be OADPs since a war that doesn't chain is extremely unlikely, but I've been outvoted on that one too and I don't really care enough to fight it. I believe that people who can't or won't be involved in intra-alliance politics-need to shut up and that's what I'm doing.

I didn't find being the oppressor fun. I actually have disliked very few alliances in the game and even when I went to war with them, it was never personal. I enjoyed the chance to use my nation's weapons for what they were meant for and the chance to meet my opponents but other than that, it wasn't personal. I'm basically an isolationist/neutral when it comes down to it so I don't really get off on doing anything to anyone.

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1316592996' post='2805206']
We gave white peace even before Karma ...but those Siths marketed it better meh.
[/quote]

If you did, I didn't hear of it. The first time I remember hearing of it in a global war was Karma. It's embarrassing to admit now but before that, it hadn't occurred to me that White Peace was an option. Reparations, surrender terms, or at least an apology were expected.

Think that covers everything.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Duncan King

[Timeline]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1316648567' post='2805538']
It's natural. Empires rise and fall. NPO had what, three years (really don't remember)? MK's had at least two. I don't think they've angered enough people to inspire a power shift like Karma, but they will eventually if they don't fade themselves (like Rome).
[/quote]

Sure empires rise and fall, but it don't matter if MK has angered enough people, when you have alliances like Sparta who jump ship every war and smaller alliances that will bandwagon, all it will take is for NPO to have a few key treaties and the sides will be stacked in NPO's favour. it wont be as hard as people think.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1316635933' post='2805424']
I take it Pandora's Box is just going to sit there?

Disappointing.
[/quote]
Well GOONS will surely be involved in any conflict we can insert ourselves into .

[Systemfailure]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1316653993' post='2805591']
Well GOONS will surely be involved in any conflict we can insert ourselves into .
[/quote]
Everyone Vs Everyone Vs GOONS

[potato]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1316648567' post='2805538']
I'm working on the first part, actually, but I still have obligations where I am. I've always liked Grey Council and it's currently the only alliance I'd go to if I wasn't TFD.

I know you love pinning me as one of the "bad guys" but I've always been a dove or at least a utilitarian/pragmatist. I have only personally received reparations once, voted in favor of requiring reps twice, and issued a single ZI order once. I personally received 100 tech from GPA in terms of their reparations and I still feel bad about it. I also came to really like GPA and if they didn't has as strict of a gag order as they do, I'd consider joining them. I have requested reparations twice. The first was 1000 tech from the Shadow Republic in compensation for poaching NATO's protectorate. I'm really bad at following through on this so I think I only ended up trying to collect 750 or so. The second was when I was top government in NATO and was a Continuum representative. I would have let GPA off with 300 million in reparations and no other terms. I wish I'd have argued for White Peace but the truth is that I had not heard of it at that time. I was, of course, outvoted, but that episode is interesting in that Slayer99 agreed with me that the reparations requirement was too high. I issued a ZI order against a nation while I was in NATO. Looking back now, I don't remember what he actually did but what makes that episode notable to me was the fact that the individual that we ZIed ended up being a reroll of someone who had been a good friend of mine in a previous life.

I've never been a war hawk. Sure I like knocking things around eventually but once I get my shots in and the other party gets theirs in, I'm fine. I don't like collecting reparations because those just prolong the inconvenience of war. If I'd heard of White Peace earlier, I would have advocated for it but the truth is that I hadn't heard of it before UJP/Karma. I'd only seen wars end with reps and surrender terms. In the alliances that I've been in, I've always been an advocate for fair surrender terms and I've personally advocated against extortive reps and P/EZI. The side that I happen to be on doesn't change anything.

You'll probably say that if you were so against what your allies were doing before Karma, why didn't you leave? Well, the answer to that is that for me, loyalty to my alliance and my allies has always been more important to me than furthering my own personal beliefs. It's the reason I didn't leave Zenith to join Vox despite the fact that I agreed with them. At the time, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=70&showentry=648"]I wrote this blog[/url] which details my viewpoint.
[/quote]

I don't pin you as anything else other than someone who grew a conscience when you were on the receiving end of a losing war. I don't think of you as one of the "bad girls" either since any alliance you were in as never been relevant enough. You were just a follower. Now that you're not on the side with the power, you seem awfully vocal about how reps are evil and blahblahblah.
I could be wrong and you could have been opposing reps and E/PZIs and co with all your heart and soul but that sure wasn't in public.

If anything else fails, you can always resent that bloody tech if it hurts you so much.

Edited September 22, 2011 by potato

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1316648567' post='2805538']
[/quote]

Look, I tried really hard to write a reply to this that wasnt reducible to a childhood taunt.

Success in this endeavor, for what'r eason, was elusive.

Lacking such a reply, I will simply share with you this simple formula.

Money -> Infra -> Casualties
________<--l

In this simple flow-chart may be found the ultimate secret to life, the universe, and everyting. At least in CN.

I wish you well in your future endeavors, and certainly wouldnt want you to feel bad about that little problem that you 'still feel bad about" I mean, if you feel bad about it occasionally surely your own guilt is enough punishment, right?

No, screw that. I am vengeance. Screw you too. I dont care if you 'feel bad about it' - how many YEARS has it been? Have you even attempted to offer to repay what you stole? Forget about real value, even nominally? Have you even sent 50 tech in reps, years later, to the AA you destroyed for nothing? Not that it would mean anything anyway, after you rewrote our charter at gunpoint the original AA ceased to exist anyhow. You must excuse me if my eyes dampen hardly at all at your sob story.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1316687517' post='2805833']
Look, I tried really hard to write a reply to this that wasnt reducible to a childhood taunt.

Success in this endeavor, for what'r eason, was elusive.[/quote]

This is among the more artful constructions of "I can't respond to this seriously" I've ever seen. It brought a smile to my morning.

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

War isn't as fun as everyone makes it out to be. Clicking "launch cruise missile" gets boring after about the 6th time.

[Valtamdraugr]

[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1316710546' post='2805999']
War isn't as fun as everyone makes it out to be. Clicking "launch cruise missile" gets boring after about the 6th time.
[/quote]
Too true, but the waiting is the hardest part.

btw, something about our "winter is coming" thing...

One of the precursors to Ragnarok was the Fimbul Winter.. that is.. 3 winters joined without a summer between them... are we really prepared to engage in a 3year war? Perhaps at the end of such a war, admin will roll back our weaponry to sticks and stones.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1316710546' post='2805999']
War isn't as fun as everyone makes it out to be. Clicking "launch cruise missile" gets boring after about the 6th time.
[/quote]
It's always been my opinion that it's the political maneuvering that leads up and into war that is more exciting than the war itself. There is next to nothing about the actual game of CN that is fun... it's the world that we've created that is enjoyable.

[quote name='Valtamdraugr' timestamp='1316714120' post='2806043']
Too true, but the waiting is the hardest part.

btw, something about our "winter is coming" thing...

One of the precursors to Ragnarok was the Fimbul Winter.. that is.. 3 winters joined without a summer between them... are we really prepared to engage in a 3year war? Perhaps at the end of such a war, admin will roll back our weaponry to sticks and stones.
[/quote]
I'd be down for a 3 year tangle

[Ironfist]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1316726749' post='2806175']
It's always been my opinion that it's the political maneuvering that leads up and into war that is more exciting than the war itself. There is next to nothing about the actual game of CN that is fun... it's the world that we've created that is enjoyable.
[/quote]

Yes, but lately the war lead ins have been a little disappointing...

[IYIyTh]

and often predictable.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1316684064' post='2805828']
I don't pin you as anything else other than someone who grew a conscience when you were on the receiving end of a losing war. I don't think of you as one of the "bad girls" either since any alliance you were in as never been relevant enough. You were just a follower. Now that you're not on the side with the power, you seem awfully vocal about how reps are evil and blahblahblah.
I could be wrong and you could have been opposing reps and E/PZIs and co with all your heart and soul but that sure wasn't in public.

If anything else fails, you can always resent that bloody tech if it hurts you so much.
[/quote]
DK does have a somewhat mixed past, but her alliance is the one that paid GOD to free Kaiser Martens before Karma.

[potato]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1316783340' post='2806652']
DK does have a somewhat mixed past, but her alliance is the one that paid GOD to free Kaiser Martens before Karma.
[/quote]

And my alliance is the one that saved a small one man alliance from the cruelty of evil raiders and forced recrutement. Your point?

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1316648567' post='2805538']
I know you love pinning me as one of the "bad guys" but I've always been a dove or at least a utilitarian/pragmatist.
[/quote]
Ya that's complete crap. Take it from someone who was on the receiving end of your "dove/utilitarian/pragmatic" behaviors. I'll never get sick of the tyrants of the past age roaming the streets of this world now as martyrs. It just saddens me that I don't see your amazingly moral and benevolent friend Slayer doing the same song and dance with you. Who knows, maybe he re-rolled and he is out there doing it. I'm just not caring and nurturing enough to track his re-rolls (should they exist) like he did mine.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Captain Flinders

[Taliburn]

[quote name='Pax ME' timestamp='1316428458' post='2803629']
Maybe it's because I'm bored. Maybe it's because I'm in Valhalla. Maybe it's because with the recent update of changing resources I think we NEED a war to get the whole "war circles" going.

What's your guys' thoughts on the lack of a global nuclear playground currently going on in CN?
[/quote]

Maybe next war don't wait so long to see what side is winning before you see what treaties you want to fulfill. (pixlehugger)

[IYIyTh]

If anyone hasn't noticed, there is enough sexual tension among all the blocs than there has been at most points in CN's history right now.

Relax.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1316791987' post='2806692']
And my alliance is the one that saved a small one man alliance from the cruelty of evil raiders and forced recrutement. Your point?
[/quote]
Neither of you are complete villains

That was my point.