An Announcement from TLR and NPO

[RandomInterrupt]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1316592403' post='2805202']It's pretty amusing to see members of Polar commenting on an Optional Defense treaty seeing as they have one with FARK.[/quote]
The Polar members commenting didn't sign that treaty and are entitled to their own opinions. It's our only ODP and I think almost all of the membership of Polaris would prefer for the treaty to be mandatory. Now if I started to take people to task for signing optional treaties, you should call me out on it as that would be hypocrisy.

[New Frontier]

I seem to remember a former alliance leader saying something along the lines of "the leader of an alliance is the alliance", or that members were responsible for the actions of the leadership they submit themselves to.

I wonder which alliance he led?

Edited September 21, 2011 by New Frontier

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1316582737' post='2805153']
You seemed to miss exactly what I was saying is not in keeping with CnG's heritage. It's not giving alliances second chances. It's being a moron and party-line parrot. In opposition we attracted the most intelligent posters chiefly because the Hegemony position was logically indefensible. As the Hegemony became more solidified one noticed its intelligent leadership posting less and less. Only the idiot rank and file would dare try to speak for it.

All defence of this treaty consists of tripe and platitudes. Anyone actually attempting to go beyond this has revealed the stupidity of their position.



Oh sure, hail you ODP and declare you're changing the world.



Uh-huh, so TLR won't be defending NPO? Did you tell the NPO about this? !@#$, Ventus, don't change the world too fast. I don't think the world can handle it.
[/quote]
I think it's funny how you say that this is horrible for TLR to sign this treaty, and it caused you to leave TLR (an alliance you've been with in one capacity or another for over 2 years, seeing as GR joined CnG in 2009, I believe), but is,as you imply in this post, unimportant.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1316582737' post='2805153']
You seemed to miss exactly what I was saying is not in keeping with CnG's heritage. It's not giving alliances second chances. It's being a moron and party-line parrot. In opposition we attracted the most intelligent posters chiefly because the Hegemony position was logically indefensible. As the Hegemony became more solidified one noticed its intelligent leadership posting less and less. Only the idiot rank and file would dare try to speak for it.
[/quote]

Your post implies that you know very little of the heritage, or you are twisting it for your own purposes.

[Melancholy Culkin]

[quote name='KahlanRahl' timestamp='1316618615' post='2805301']
Please, elaborate and share with the rest of the class. I implore you.
[/quote]

TIO is a bad alliance.

[The Pansy]

[quote name='Melancholy Culkin' timestamp='1316623932' post='2805345']
TIO is a bad alliance.
[/quote]
Damn.... I was looking for a shout out

Beaten by TIO, the horror.

[KahlanRahl]

[quote name='Melancholy Culkin' timestamp='1316623932' post='2805345']
TIO is a bad alliance.
[/quote]
Thanks for sharing, Johnny. However I have to remind you matters of opinion are simply that: matters of opinion. It's okay to have one, but just because you say it doesn't make it true.


On a more serious note, drop by our channel and our forums and hang out with us for a while. Maybe you'll see why NPO like us. Maybe you'll like us yourselves. *shrug* It won't kill you.

Edited September 21, 2011 by KahlanRahl

[Badpoet]

All these treaties...I've lost track of who's doing who.

[Ventus]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1316582737' post='2805153']
All defence of this treaty consists of tripe and platitudes. Anyone actually attempting to go beyond this has revealed the stupidity of their position.


Oh sure, hail you ODP and declare you're changing the world.


Uh-huh, so TLR won't be defending NPO? Did you tell the NPO about this? !@#$, Ventus, don't change the world too fast. I don't think the world can handle it.
[/quote]

Just ignoring your bit on heritage as you were only in GR in 2009, you never actually had to fight NPO and thus wouldn't know what you are talking about. That's okay, not everyone was lucky enough to be in the CoaLUEtion.

Defense. It's spelled defense. We want to have the treaty so that we can be friends with NPO and protect them if they are attacked unjustly or if they are attacked in a war that they did not start and vice-versa.

The ODP is changing the world. We are obviously angering people like you, which is funny and also helps weed out the fickle members of the alliance. Only those who will fight to the end with no complaints will stay, the true followers of CnG's suicide pact are left behind while those who value pixels leave.

TLR will not be defending NPO if they do something stupid, like spying on an alliance and starting a war or something along those lines. The common sense situations in which an alliance knows that nobody will want to come to it's aid if they do not have to. Now in any other situation we will gladly protect NPO, there will not be any more DH-like attacks on them. Also, I never claimed that I am changing the world. TLR and our allies might be changing a part of the world but I myself cannot change the world.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Ventus' timestamp='1316626169' post='2805358']
Defense. It's spelled defense.[/quote]

Unless you are an Anglo.

Edited September 21, 2011 by iamthey

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Shan Revan' timestamp='1316594754' post='2805211']
That's a terrible comparison. Each of those are life and death situations for people and people are free to leave those occupations just as much as anyone else. Some high level gov members leaving, even in a crisis, does not typically result in the deaths of other people. (OOC - especially seeing as nation's can not even die in the first place, and gov come and go through alliances quite readily. No one is actually harmed through their loss. Sure the alliance may wither, but an alliance can be replaced - a life can not.)
[/quote]

Pacifica is a community, it can die if not preserved and fought for. I love that community. Perhaps that should more directly highlight the meaning of the metaphor for you. Her members are the pilots, the firefighters, the ships captains. We all fight to keep her alive. God forbid I should not be literal on these forums and what I'm saying fly right over someone's head.

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1316612837' post='2805271']
Your desire to defend brehon, is also admirable mael, but unnecessary as that was hardly an afront to him. Brehon is an adult, and if disagreement with one of his attempts to divine the psychology and character of every person to have ever left NPO is capable of penetrating his armor then I don't think he would still be doing the work he does.

That being said, even if your comparison between firefighters and cybernations alliance leaders was even remotely appropriate (in truth if I was a first responder I would probably be insulted) the fact remains that not everyone is cut out to be one, and not everyone who is one remains so until death, and that hardly means the entire present non-firefighting population is composed of cowards. That is why a firefighting force exists after all, because most people don't want to run into a burning house, or use their garden hose to extinguish a fire. In either case fire fighters are deserving of respect for their services, and I made clear that the persistent efforts of NPO's IO corps are similarly deserving of respect.

What I find aggravating though, is the compulsion that some feel to get out on their cross don an air of self righteous indignation and take pot shots at others for a choice and decision that was largely self imposed. This sort of behavior I find amateurish and beneath the station of any serious leader.

Despite this however, such details should not be allowed to obstruct what is a moment of long awaited celebration- so once again congratulations.
[/quote]

Way to say "I don't want to respond to your point and will completely ignore it." Because in all that drivel, you didn't respond to the main statement. You also show you didn't comprehend the metaphor. If Pacifica were a burning building, I'd gladly fight for every life inside of her and the building itself as would most Pacificans. I have in the past pledged I would be the last Pacifican standing at the gates of Francograd if necessary.

So what do you think about my main statement, that in any group of people leaving an alliance there will be a mix of cowards and those who leave for good reasons. Didn't you want to object to that in some way as well?

Also, just because Brehon can defend himself doesn't mean I cannot speak my own mind. It has no bearing on him that I express myself. Your interpretation otherwise seems merely an attempt to shut me up so I can't fix flaws in the logic presented.. won't happen.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='Yankees Empire' timestamp='1316623224' post='2805340']
I think it's funny how you say that this is horrible for TLR to sign this treaty, and it caused you to leave TLR (an alliance you've been with in one capacity or another for over 2 years, seeing as GR joined CnG in 2009, I believe), but is,as you imply in this post, unimportant.
[/quote]

I didn't say it wasn't important. I was merely mocking the mouth-breathers in this thread who were saying it's changing the world. A gross exaggeration for an ODP. Don't get so ahead of yourself. You ain't that clever.

[quote name='Ventus' timestamp='1316626169' post='2805358']
Just ignoring your bit on heritage as you were only in GR in 2009, you never actually had to fight NPO and thus wouldn't know what you are talking about. That's okay, not everyone was lucky enough to be in the CoaLUEtion.[/quote]

You need to stop posting like you know anything about me and what I have done.

[quote]Defense. It's spelled defense.[/quote]

Please continue proving my point. TLR, this is your future.

[quote]Only those who will fight to the end with no complaints will stay[/quote]

No complaints o/

[the rebel]

[quote name='Ventus' timestamp='1316626169' post='2805358']
the true followers of CnG's suicide pact are left behind while those who value pixels leave.[/quote]

Strange i left sometime after its only suicide run to date which was NoCB, does that mean i value my pixels?

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='RandomInterrupt' timestamp='1316621200' post='2805331']
The Polar members commenting didn't sign that treaty and are entitled to their own opinions. It's our only ODP and I think almost all of the membership of Polaris would prefer for the treaty to be mandatory. Now if I started to take people to task for signing optional treaties, you should call me out on it as that would be hypocrisy.
[/quote]

If you think that your hypocrisy here represents a hundredth part of the distaste that TLR and many many others have for your alliance, you are sadly mistaken. You have callously wronged many and never been made to properly pay for it. At this point, it's just a toss up as to who wants your head on a pike the most as to who will get it.

[quote name='KahlanRahl' timestamp='1316624759' post='2805348']
Thanks for sharing, Johnny. However I have to remind you matters of opinion are simply that: matters of opinion. It's okay to have one, but just because you say it doesn't make it true.


On a more serious note, drop by our channel and our forums and hang out with us for a while. Maybe you'll see why NPO like us. Maybe you'll like us yourselves. *shrug* It won't kill you.
[/quote]


No, TIO is pretty much a crappile alliance. Everyone knows it. NPO "likes" you because NPO was only allowed to sign with crappile alliances like Legion and Invicta during the period of their blacklisting. Sad but necessary? Polar loves alliances like you too and has since before the days of the Unjust war. You're easy to manipulate in masses and too incompetent to hope for better.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1316629831' post='2805377']
I didn't say it wasn't important. I was merely mocking the mouth-breathers in this thread who were saying it's changing the world. A gross exaggeration for an ODP. Don't get so ahead of yourself. You ain't that clever.



You need to stop posting like you know anything about me and what I have done.



Please continue proving my point. TLR, this is your future.



No complaints o/
[/quote]

Yeah, you forgot the key point of Sal's history since 2009: He spent quite a bit of it in a retirement home otherwise known as The Jedi Order.

[Malatose]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1316563834' post='2804882']
There are IO's that leave (just as there are members that leave) when they don't agree anymore. Then there are those that decide to stay and ride it out, fighting and making changes when they can with the belief in the end they can change the alliance for the better.

Those of us still around believe we can work together and make the changes. We have always believed it and we continue to fight for it. If you just leave... then you are the coward without any need for further discussion.

Edit for clarification: You = proverbial you, not Sal directly.
[/quote]

Nice to know that you consider me a coward now. After all, I was a coward for getting zi'd twice for the NPO. Iamthey was zi'd too. The contributions that Dilber made to the alliance? bah, they mean nothing! He left. He's a coward. You are truly a piece of work.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Malatose

[Brehon]

Alright so my post was !@#$ in its delivery, not my first.

No Iamthey I don't consider you a coward of any level and you are dead on for calling my post out (as was Warrior Concept, hell even ole Vektor above me). Should have proofread it to make sure it contained my intent.

If a persons [b]ONLY[/b] response is to up and quit because they don't like something, then yes they are a coward or better yet, the care they are supposed to carry is not what they have pretended it is. If you have lost the ability to put in play time, hell that is just real life and you go where you can have the most bang for your time buck. If you have disagreed and in the end could not find resolution, then you did what was best for you and likely the alliance you were in by leaving. However if at the moment of contest or argument the answer is to take your ball and go home, then yes, you are a coward. If that last shoe fits you, yes I just called you a coward. If that list shoe doesn't fit you, go about your business.

My apologies to my horrible explanation previous. Particularly, no I do not think Vektor, Iamthey or Charles Stuart are cowards, so for my offense to you, again apologies.

/huggles to my Vektor stalker

[Brehon]

Mael, they were right to call out my post, it was !@#$ in showing my intent. Pick a better platform to go on about.

[Malatose]

What can I say?

I'm member number 1 in the Brehon fan-club.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Malatose

[IYIyTh]

I for one blame Mary's uno playing skills, or lackthereof, for this whining.

Edited September 21, 2011 by IYIyTh

[Malatose]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1316633757' post='2805402']
I for one blame Mary's uno playing skills, or lackthereof, for this whining.


[/quote]

oh no you didn't!

[Brehon]

Vektor - right back atcha

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Are you kidding me? I fear being next in line behind Mary in Uno.. *shudders*. I don't know where all the WD4'S COME FROM! I swear she bribed the dealer.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1316512720' post='2804443']
I think it's about to move on from that rivalry. It's a bit stale.
[/quote]
That's real cute coming from a MKer.

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1316563412' post='2804875']
Haha what?

I mean I'm not here to trash the treaty or take a side other than backing up my good friends/allies in TLR, but to say that losing two wars is equal to what Pacifica's victims suffered is pretty hilarious.
[/quote]
He was talking about C&G in particular, not everyone and every alliance NPO ever kicked around.

[quote name='Ventus' timestamp='1316566138' post='2804921']
You've got to be joking! Not keeping with the CnG heritage? Did you not read the discussions on the TLR forums or CnG forums? We've been over this many times and even those that are against this treaty can't argue that it does in fact stick with our heritage. CnG is a suicide pact that was originally meant to destroy NPO. It accomplished that. However that is only a shell of what CnG believes. CnG believes in second chances, it was CnG that allowed ODN to be transformed ODN from the "Optional Defense Network" into one of the most trustworthy alliances on Bob!

If anything it's cowards like you that ruin CnG. You refuse to change the world like CnG was made to do. You refuse to give alliances second chances in tradition with CnG. You bail on your alliance at the first disagreement with it, your argument was "No pixels will be lost defending NPO." even though it is an optional treaty meaning you probably will not be defending Pacifica. I would advise you to stop posting such rubbish, you had plenty of chances to voice your opinion and you refused. Sour grapes.
[/quote]
This post is a giant self-contradiction, it's quite impressive to behold. C&G's founding priniciple is a "shell" of what C&G believes? Okay.

ODN hasn't transformed anything except their set of allies.

I fail to see how TLR's gigantic [size="6"]O[/size] compromise with the rest of C&G is also equal to C&G "changing the world."

Alliances are political entities and the rulers of their consituent nations who are politically-minded are perfectly right--and I would say obligated--to "bail" on an alliance if they find that the alliance's politics no longer flush with their personal politics/ideals. Are you honestly saying that once a nation joins an alliance then they are inextricably linked forever even if their is a radical shift in policy? Don't be stupid. It is intelligent and thoughtful rulers like Sal and Blacky that benefit alliances and who exercise the greatest logic in this world.

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1316585178' post='2805172']
This makes me somewhat sad and somewhat happy. I think it'd be fun to sit some of the new people down on our collective knees and tell them campfire stories about Pacifica and how they ruled the world with an iron fist for what seemed like forever.

Although I can't even concede that your point is valid, the NPO's arrogance has never gone away. They've kept with them that air of formal superiority that makes people either love/hate them. Personally, I love to hate them, everyone needs a bad guy, whether it's MK, TLR, NPO or whatever. I'm glad to have found mine.
[/quote]
NPO ought to be haughty, they are superior to most alliances.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1316617622' post='2805294']
Every alliance deserves a second chance. I welcome a world where we don't have to dogmatically be aligned against NPO. I am confident they will not squander our trust in them.
[/quote]
I'm sure NPO is so grateful for your grace.

[quote name='Ventus' timestamp='1316626169' post='2805358']
Defense. It's spelled defense. We want to have the treaty so that we can be friends with NPO and protect them if they are attacked unjustly or if they are attacked in a war that they did not start and vice-versa.[/quote]
I appreciate your indictment of MK, GOONS, and Umbrella's behavior. What political repurcussions does TLR have in store? Perhaps some cancellations or downgrades. No? Then shut it.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1316636111' post='2805427']
I appreciate your indictment of MK, GOONS, and Umbrella's behavior. What political repurcussions does TLR have in store? Perhaps some cancellations or downgrades. No? Then shut it.
[/quote]

Schatt beat me to the punch. $%&@ you for calling us out TLR, we're going to have to cancel our ODN treaty over this and restrict your OWF post allotment by 100. Use what remains wisely and think about what you've done during the upcoming 48 hour radio silence on the OWF.