A NEAT Announcement

[Schattenmann]

Congratulations on your treaty, and commendations on formalizing your stance on the matter of raiding AAs and your own foreign policy.

[Ayatollah Bromeini]

We may not agree with you on this particular issue, NEAT, but the LSF still you.

o/ NEAT

[White Chocolate]

Nice to finally see this upgrade. I NEAT.

Also, VERY proud of NEAT for their policy change which I personally support. I think it shows great courage to announce it on the OWF. SC has a similar policy, but we haven't announced in any formal fashion on OWF that I am aware of.

In a world where attacking others for tech is not only allowed, but held out by many alliance leaders as an exercise of alliance "sovereignty" (the implication being it's an exercise in freedom and therefor somehow a decision based on justice), I think it is very brave for NEAT to announce a foreign policy change in public that challenges that view.

Alliances are "free" in a "might makes right" world to have any policy they can "get away with." However, the fact that one is "free" to allow their membership to attack other individual nations without much apparent negative consequence is simply a show of power and nothing more.

Edited September 12, 2011 by White Chocolate

[Spaarlaamp]

Oh no, this rules out any possibility of getting a treaty with NEAT!

[Wu Tang Clan]

I promote the right to expansion of my nation. Expansion at any cost. Whatever I determine is right for my nation to do to expand is deemed law in my nation. What about my rights to life?

[Shaazzam]

Good people doing good things.

[Fedora Prefontaine]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1315853200' post='2799295']
I promote the right to expansion of my nation. Expansion at any cost. Whatever I determine is right for my nation to do to expand is deemed law in my nation. What about my rights to life?
[/quote]


Nobody's trying to take your right to life. You have rights to a lot of things, but a treaty with NEAT is not one of them. They have as much right to speak out against armed theft as you have to speak in favor of it.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Spaarlaamp' timestamp='1315847032' post='2799261']
Oh no, this rules out any possibility of getting a treaty with NEAT!
[/quote]

Thank you to you and Wu Tang Clan for those excellent example of my previous point

Again NEAT - you're cool.

Edited September 12, 2011 by White Chocolate

[jayhova804]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1315868135' post='2799409']
Again NEAT - you're cool.
[/quote]


Thanks for the love WC, and everyone else

[Spaarlaamp]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1315868135' post='2799409']
Thank you to you and Wu Tang Clan for those excellent example of my previous point

Again NEAT - you're cool.
[/quote]
You're welcome!

Just know that a lot of major wars start with a tech raid, so if that would ever get completely banned, we'd have a boring Planet Bob. We might aswell all join TDO..

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Spaarlaamp' timestamp='1315875413' post='2799478']
You're welcome!

Just know that a lot of major wars start with a tech raid, so if that would ever get completely banned, we'd have a boring Planet Bob. We might aswell all join TDO..
[/quote]
There are so many large tech raiding alliances, that even if all the major non tech raiding alliances teamed up to rid Planet Bob of tech raiding, it would take some pretty big wars to even lessen the amount of tech raiding alliances, to eliminate it fully we'd probably need to have more wars fought than have already been fought throughout the entire time CN has existed. Unless all these tech raiders are really cowards that don't tech raid because they feel it is a right worth fighting for, but because they like to feel tough only when it doesn't risk them taking much damage. Also tech raids are a really stupid way to start a war and that tech raiding alliances use that to start wars is even more reason alliances who don't shouldn't be happy with alliances deciding they have this right to attack alliances, then claim it to be a tech raid so everything is fine and they shouldn't be punished for doing what they normally do.

Right now tech raiding alliances are in their Golden Age, where they can get away with tech raiding almost any alliance claiming it to be an error after the fact and where in the few cases individuals decide to fight them over it, they can convince the major non-tech raiding alliances to sanction those who fight against them because of their tech raids and assist them in other ways as well. If a nation from a tech raiding alliance hits someone in an alliance, they would consider it madness for someone to attack them in response to being attacked, rather than just contacting one of their gov to express their displeasure and then peace out the war. Alliances can at least do their part to make tech raiding more risky and not support it if they're not in favor of attacking off-guard nations for the sole reason of stealing their money/tech without being provoked.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Methrage

[Valtamdraugr]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1315853200' post='2799295']
I promote the right to expansion of my nation. Expansion at any cost. Whatever I determine is right for my nation to do to expand is deemed law in my nation. What about my rights to life?
[/quote]
You big meanie!! You're a bad, bad person. Shame on you.

[Yuurei]

The Terran Empire agrees with this policy and shall pursue a similar policy in our own political endeavours.

I am proud to see such a public move by an alliance. My respect for NEAT has gone up greatly.

o/ NEAT

[Emperor Whimsical]

Thanks for SniperJoe, NEAT!

[erikz]

Want a treaty NEAT?

[nippy]

[quote name='iamwalrus' timestamp='1315753499' post='2798711']
Because rolling small defenseless nations for their tech make this world "more interesting". Be a bit creative.
[/quote]

It certainly makes it more interesting for those of us that tech raid. There's another side of the coin, you see....

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='iamwalrus' timestamp='1315753499' post='2798711']
Because rolling small defenseless nations for their tech make this world "more interesting". Be a bit creative.
[/quote]

I want to hear your creative thinking on how to make this world more interesting without tech raiding. Please enlighten me and be creative.

Sit around and wait on the next global war that may happen within a suitable time span?

Edited September 13, 2011 by Hiro Nakara

[Spaarlaamp]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1315876113' post='2799483']
There are so many large tech raiding alliances, that even if all the major non tech raiding alliances teamed up to rid Planet Bob of tech raiding, it would take some pretty big wars to even lessen the amount of tech raiding alliances, to eliminate it fully we'd probably need to have more wars fought than have already been fought throughout the entire time CN has existed.
[/quote]
Banning ALL techraids will never happen, because the smallest nations will always keep attacking eachother. And the raiding of [i]nones[/i] will also never stop. Right now it's also possible to raid nations with an AA, and it's not all that hard to put a stop to that. If a few anti-raid alliances would come together and said: from now on, we're protecting everyone with an AA against tech raiders, we'd have an interesting situation. Tech raiding alliances would have to decide if it's worth starting a major war over those few AA-raids against all anti-raid alliances. It's even more interesting because even in raiding alliances membership is often devided about the topic of raiding, especially about nations with an AA.


[quote]Unless all these tech raiders are really cowards that don't tech raid because they feel it is a right worth fighting for, but because they like to feel tough only when it doesn't risk them taking much damage. [/quote]
That last part isn't very true. Every nation I've been raiding lately has had nukes. That's a pretty serious thread of damage. And then there's also the risk of having to pay reps if the target of choice turned out to be protected or something.

[quote]Also tech raids are a really stupid way to start a war and that tech raiding alliances use that to start wars is even more reason alliances who don't shouldn't be happy with alliances deciding they have this right to attack alliances, then claim it to be a tech raid so everything is fine and they shouldn't be punished for doing what they normally do.[/quote]
Please try to use the '.' now and then..

It's a pretty neat way to start a war actually, one nation attacks another nation for profit, that other nation fights back, both alliances keep standing behind their own nation, BOOM, there's war. What could be better? Can you name a few 'smart' ways to start a war?
And when do alliances claim that an alliance wide attack is actually a raid? NEW-DF? That actually was an alliance-wide raid. The difference is in the attacks used (full military vs. GA's only).

[quote]
Right now tech raiding alliances are in their Golden Age, where they can get away with tech raiding almost any alliance claiming it to be an error after the fact
[/quote]
In that case you'll have to pay reps. Besides, there are fewer and fewer targets, because nations in general are getting bigger and smarter. Golden age was like 2 years ago..

[quote]and where in the few cases individuals decide to fight them over it, they can convince the major non-tech raiding alliances to sanction those who fight against them because of their tech raids and assist them in other ways as well. If a nation from a tech raiding alliance hits someone in an alliance, they would consider it madness for someone to attack them in response to being attacked, rather than just contacting one of their gov to express their displeasure and then peace out the war.[/quote]
If you're talking about yourself, I didn't really follow that, but I read that you were claiming to be gov and whatnot, there was/is more to that story. I've never heard of any other case of raid victims getting sanctioned. In fact, most raiding alliances have a 'if you $%&@ up, you're on your own'-clause in their raiding policy.

[quote]
Alliances can at least do their part to make tech raiding more risky and not support it if they're not in favor of attacking off-guard nations for the sole reason of stealing their money/tech without being provoked.
[/quote]
Sure they can, alliances can do whatever they want. But don't claim to make Bob a better place, when in fact, you're making it more boring. If you're really against raiding, try to ban raiding on your sphere again or something like that. Instead of forming a semi-neutral group of alliances.

[iamwalrus]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1315912002' post='2799700']
I want to hear your creative thinking on how to make this world more interesting without tech raiding. Please enlighten me and be creative.

Sit around and wait on the next global war that may happen within a suitable time span?
[/quote]

Tech raids 99% of the time involve a well prepared and financed nation attacking an unprepared and/or ignorant nation. This adds no "interesting" features to our world of Digiterra. If you get pleasure out of destroying peoples nations for no purpose then that is your own dysfunctional problem.

What would be far more entertaining and beneficial is if alliances started funding "duels". They could arrange fights and fund them, this would give younger nations war experience and build general interest in the [i]*OOC Game Mechanics OOC*[/i]. Thus, you could get people interested in the world of Digiterra.

As it is right now, only small nations can find targets, they are few, and they cause people to leave the world perminantly. Personally, I have saved nations from tech raiders who were going to leave Digiterra, aided them to health, taught them about the game and they have become active participants in the world by selling tech and trading and they will probably fight when called upon.

Edited September 14, 2011 by iamwalrus

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='iamwalrus' timestamp='1315963718' post='2800064']
Tech raids 99% of the time involve a well prepared and financed nation attacking an unprepared and/or ignorant nation. This adds no "interesting" features to our world of Digiterra. If you get pleasure out of destroying peoples nations for no purpose then that is your own dysfunctional problem.

What would be far more entertaining and beneficial is if alliances started funding "duels". They could arrange fights and fund them, this would give younger nations war experience and build general interest in the [i]*OOC Game Mechanics OOC*[/i]. Thus, you could get people interested in the world of Digiterra.

As it is right now, only small nations can find targets, they are few, and they cause people to leave the world perminantly. Personally, I have saved nations from tech raiders who were going to leave Digiterra, aided them to health, taught them about the game and they have become active participants in the world by selling tech and trading and they will probably fight when called upon.
[/quote]

That is only true for smaller nations. Take my nation range for example, when I raid, I tend to get nations with WRCs, nuclear weapons, and a decent warchest. I have been nuked in probably around half of my raids (again, my size means there are not really many targets). So, to claim all raids are of a single type is misleading.

[iamwalrus]

That is why I said 99% and not 100%., and even in your situation it would be more beneficial to have a "duel".

Edited September 14, 2011 by iamwalrus

[ZeroRemorse]

Ah NEAT you guys are like the comrades we know we have. Always looking out for the people and bringing the hammer down on the oppressors of the proletariat.

Hail NEAT!

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='iamwalrus' timestamp='1315963718' post='2800064']
Tech raids 99% of the time involve a well prepared and financed nation attacking an unprepared and/or ignorant nation. This adds no "interesting" features to our world of Digiterra. If you get pleasure out of destroying peoples nations for no purpose then that is your own dysfunctional problem.

What would be far more entertaining and beneficial is if alliances started funding "duels". They could arrange fights and fund them, this would give younger nations war experience and build general interest in the [i]*OOC Game Mechanics OOC*[/i]. Thus, you could get people interested in the world of Digiterra.

As it is right now, only small nations can find targets, they are few, and they cause people to leave the world perminantly. Personally, I have saved nations from tech raiders who were going to leave Digiterra, aided them to health, taught them about the game and they have become active participants in the world by selling tech and trading and they will probably fight when called upon.
[/quote]


I think the point you seem to be missing or just labelling as dysfunctional is that maybe, just maybe, people like warring and tech raiding There may be a slight possibility that they enjoy it, as it's fun for them. I mean of coarse, how dare they have a different opinion than you and thus they must be dysfunctional. Now on the flip side, Maybe they view moralist goody two shoes as scum and dysfunctional? Maybe, just maybe, they think you make this game boring by your non warring peace loving attitudes?

Now I'm all for you playing the game you wish, but it would be ignorant and quite dumb to expect people to conform to your playing style just because you think theirs is dysfunctional.

Also good luck on trying to organise duels, I look forward to seeing your programme roll out shortly and en mass duels to the same volume as raids every day.

WE have no problem in getting our members war experience, It's called tech raiding. They learn the game mechanics and make profit through it.


You didn't woo me with that revelation, sorry.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Hiro Nakara

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1315985953' post='2800276']
I think the point you seem to be missing or just labelling as dysfunctional is that maybe, just maybe, people like warring and tech raiding There may be a slight possibility that they enjoy it, as it's fun for them. I mean of coarse, how dare they have a different opinion than you and thus they must be dysfunctional.[/quote]

I've been called a lot worse than scum and dysfunctional by a GOONS member. Usually after inviting the attacked nation into SC or one of our allies groups. At this point, it's expected. No one is actually trying to stop GOONS or others from raiding. That would be dumb and counter-productive. However, since we know we cant stop it, we're running with it, and using the fact that people raid to our advantage

NEAT is just saying they are adding "can not allow 'tech raiding'" to their list of what they want in a mandatory treaty partner. There's advantages and disadvantages to both raiding and not raiding. Personally, I like hanging out on the "good" side of that issue, but I admit, it's just my preference.

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1315985953' post='2800276']Now I'm all for you playing the game you wish, but it would be ignorant and quite dumb to expect people to conform to your playing style just because you think theirs is dysfunctional.[/quote]

We're not expecting it.

Personally, I'm surprised that NEAT has gotten the support it has thus far. That is a good sign. It seems to me that the majority of Planet Bob (not the GOONS, mind you. GOONS are GOONS) is suffering a bad case of "historical trauma" left over from the Old Hegemony. Oh, NPO said we couldn't raid red team - well, we will not let anyone say we can't raid - NEVER AGAIN! Presto! It's a rally cry for freedom as opposed to an act of oppression. Problem with that is that groups who allow tech raiding entirely based on "freedom" are still being ruled by the past. If it's allowed because you think it's "fun" and NOT unethical otherwise - okay. But if the entire reason is because you are trying to prove that no one can say you can't have that policy, - yeah, that's correct. So what?

Edited September 14, 2011 by White Chocolate

[Comrade Craig]

I've already posted my [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105115&view=findpost&p=2798740]defense of NEAT[/url], so now...

To be completely honest, I see nothing unethical, immoral, or otherwise wrong with liberating the the land, technology, and people of evil capitalist nations. It is redistribution of wealth in its most pure form! In fact, intelligent tech raiding is a [i]moral obligation[/i] for all good commies.

Power to the people!

-Craig

Edited September 14, 2011 by Comrade Craig