Official Ronin Announcement

[USMC123]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1314766011' post='2791459']
Here we go.

Since I saw that you were dropping protection of the NAAC AA, I went and contacted my allies who had nuclear nations in range and asked for assistance. I also contacted a few other alliances I am not allied to and offered to hire them to help out. I also contacted Zombie Nation about what needed to be done for peace.

I had between 6 - 12 nuclear nations ready to hit them at update tonight, however peace was reached and the assistance was not needed. (<3 my allies for being on the ready.)

While you were typing that I went and looked at 1. JUST 1 of your allies, VE, has over 15 nations under 20k NS who are nuclear capable.I am sure they have more between 20k and 30k NS which is where these guys were when the war started? Why did you not ask them over the course of the war to help fill your holes?

Seriously, in 12 hours I was able to accomplish what you guys couldn't over the course of the war. As for our lack of assistance, we had one nation capable of fighting, which she did until I ordered her into peace mode. We also have tons of aid we can send but we need a target list to do so, a target list that was never sent.

Don't place the blame on me for you guys not asking for help or asking for the right amount of help. I had assumed you guys could handle 3 nations. But you know what they say about assumptions...now look at me.
[/quote]

ITT a co-protector needs to ask another protector for help.

EDIT: "I had assumed you guys could handle 3 nations." You clearly didn't even bother to examine said rogues did you?

Edited August 31, 2011 by USMC123

[AirMe]

If you guys drop this right now instead of continuing the debate, I will consider our relations that started growing at the beginning of this venture still in good standing.

I have no hard feelings against you guys.

EDIT: I am le tired.

Edited August 31, 2011 by AirMe

[USMC123]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1314766275' post='2791462']
If you guys drop this right now instead of continuing the debate, I will consider our relations that started growing at the beginning of this venture still in good standing.

I have no hard feelings against you guys.

EDIT: I am le tired.
[/quote]

Fair enough.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1314766275' post='2791462']
If you guys drop this right now instead of continuing the debate, I will consider our relations that started growing at the beginning of this venture still in good standing.

I have no hard feelings against you guys.
[/quote]
This is generous! Don't slap his hand away!

[Goldie]

I don't understand where VE factors in to the two of you deciding to protect a dead AA or not.

[johnathan buck]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1314768997' post='2791494']
I don't understand where VE factors in to the two of you deciding to protect a dead AA or not.
[/quote]


Ok, what he's saying is this. Tetris COULD have asked VE for assistance in dealing with the three rogues that attacked the NAAC AA. He is criticizing them cause they didn't, now in all reality VE could have refused and gone on their merry way. But that's a what if, just answering your question there.

[Conformist Maryland]

Wait...so are you recognizing NAAC as a sovereign alliance? Where do I sign up?

[Saniiro Matsudaira]

[quote name='johnathan buck' timestamp='1314769481' post='2791500']
Ok, what he's saying is this. Tetris COULD have asked VE for assistance in dealing with the three rogues that attacked the NAAC AA. He is criticizing them cause they didn't, now in all reality VE could have refused and gone on their merry way. But that's a what if, just answering your question there.
[/quote]

Whatever Tetris and VE did in conjunction is of their own business, but I can tell you this.

Tetris came to the NsO, who we are allied to and good friends with, in assistance with helping out their [former] protectorate, the NAAC, and we were more than happy to help them out. The person who agreed to help out (who acted out of good faith and not out of orders from higher ups) was reduced quite and bit helping the NAAC out with this threat. He has taken quite a serious hit of damage and is still fighting the group that originally attacked.

The NsO helps our friends when they need it, and I am disappointed how the community of the NAAC acted in response, despite the effort. It takes more strength to ask for help when it is out of necessity, for not to ask for help when needed or even being unappreciative of the help, no matter the effect, is just ignorant.

[Elorian]

This announcement was to officially say that while Tetris cancelled their protection(for reasons their own I have no problems with, personally) of NAAC AA, Ronin will continue. How we protect the AA is our own business.

It's not about Tetris, it's about Ronin and NAAC. This thread could use less snide comments and hurt feelings - that was not the purpose with which it was posted.

[shahenshah]

Gluck to Ronin with it, much better drama compared to Methrage's.

Edited August 31, 2011 by shahenshah

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1314776237' post='2791534']
Gluck to Ronin with it, much better drama compared to Methrage's.
[/quote]

Quick, rank the CN dramas from most entertaining to most annoying!
(1. Tetris v zombie v. NAAC v. Ronin
2. Sard v. Schatt
3. Methrage v. Nippy & sanction
4. Grub v. Crymson)

[sir pwnage]

Could somebody over 40k NS (but under 70k) rogue NAAC please? I'm bored.

o/ Ronin

[GoddessOfLinn]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1314766011' post='2791459']
Here we go.

Since I saw that you were dropping protection of the NAAC AA, I went and contacted my allies who had nuclear nations in range and asked for assistance. I also contacted a few other alliances I am not allied to and offered to hire them to help out. I also contacted Zombie Nation about what needed to be done for peace.

I had between 6 - 12 nuclear nations ready to hit them at update tonight, however peace was reached and the assistance was not needed. (<3 my allies for being on the ready.)

While you were typing that I went and looked at 1. JUST 1 of your allies, VE, has over 15 nations under 20k NS who are nuclear capable.I am sure they have more between 20k and 30k NS which is where these guys were when the war started? Why did you not ask them over the course of the war to help fill your holes?

Seriously, in 12 hours I was able to accomplish what you guys couldn't over the course of the war. As for our lack of assistance, we had one nation capable of fighting, which she did until I ordered her into peace mode. We also have tons of aid we can send but we need a target list to do so, a target list that was never sent.

Don't place the blame on me for you guys not asking for help or asking for the right amount of help. I had assumed you guys could handle 3 nations. But you know what they say about assumptions...now look at me.
[/quote]

You say that you only needed 12 hours to gather these resources, so why was these resources was not put into use when the NAAC AA was attack?

Tetris atleast seem to have done their best, while you did not use the resources at your finger tips.

Edited August 31, 2011 by GoddessOfLinn

[Pollard]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1314765310' post='2791449']
if one of the big alliances who does tech raid decided to raid you.
[/quote]

Come at me bro.

[Elorian]

[quote name='GoddessOfLinn' timestamp='1314786591' post='2791548']
You say that you only needed 12 hours to gather these resources, so why was these resources was not put into use when the NAAC AA was attack?

Tetris atleast seem to have done their best, while you did not use the resources at your finger tips.
[/quote]

As AirMe has mentioned already, he thought Tetris could well handle it. Had anyone told him there were such difficulties, things might have gone differently.

He has used the resources now and peace was reached.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1314764595' post='2791438']
Would you like to try and see how good our protection will be? Because an attack on a protectorate is a direct attack on the protector and there for our treaties would activate.
[/quote]
I've always thought that that is a weird way to interpret a protectorate treaty, especially after the rise of the non chaining standard in MDP+'s. Why would an ally be any more obligated to your protectorates than they are obligated to your other allies? Personally I think that it would be a good move for protectors to actually shoulder the burden of protection themselves, instead of diluting it throughout their own personal treaty webs and friend networks. That would have the effect of making alliances carefully consider who to offer protection, since they will be the only ones holding the tab if their protectorate $%&@s up. It would also make people seeking to launch an alliance put a lot more time and effort into the creation of their alliances, in order to prove it worthy of protection.

[Swatch0]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1314764343' post='2791432']
Didn't Tetris or someone else do this a couple of months ago? So why the timing now? Not criticizing, just curious.
[/quote]

From what I recall they said they would, just couldn't fulfill it. Good to see this up tho. I highly doubt Ronin would let you down unlike others.

o/ Ronin
o/ NAAC

[Goldie]

[quote name='johnathan buck' timestamp='1314769481' post='2791500']
Ok, what he's saying is this. Tetris COULD have asked VE for assistance in dealing with the three rogues that attacked the NAAC AA. He is criticizing them cause they didn't, now in all reality VE could have refused and gone on their merry way. But that's a what if, just answering your question there.
[/quote]

If that is what he is criticizing Tetris for, then it is unfounded. How does he know if we were asked or not?

[GoddessOfLinn]

[quote name='Elorian' timestamp='1314789715' post='2791556']
As AirMe has mentioned already, he thought Tetris could well handle it. Had anyone told him there were such difficulties, things might have gone differently.

He has used the resources now and peace was reached.
[/quote]

Ronin accepted a protectorate and Ronin should have used all their resources as soon as NAAC was attacked. It really does not matter, if tetris had problems or not. I had however expected that Tetris and Ronin would be able to coordinate the defence of NAAC better.

[d3filed]

but the million dollar question is why anybody cares about the naac

[GoddessOfLinn]

Not many care about NAAC, but 'many' care about how protectorates are protected.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1314790298' post='2791559']
I've always thought that that is a weird way to interpret a protectorate treaty, especially after the rise of the non chaining standard in MDP+'s. Why would an ally be any more obligated to your protectorates than they are obligated to your other allies? Personally I think that it would be a good move for protectors to actually shoulder the burden of protection themselves, instead of diluting it throughout their own personal treaty webs and friend networks. That would have the effect of making alliances carefully consider who to offer protection, since they will be the only ones holding the tab if their protectorate $%&@s up. It would also make people seeking to launch an alliance put a lot more time and effort into the creation of their alliances, in order to prove it worthy of protection.[/quote]

There's always been some give and take on the issue. However, if a protectorate treaty is worded such that an attack on the protectorate is legally interpreted as an attack on the protecting alliance, then the protecting alliance's allies can be drawn in without the non-chaining clause coming into play (particularly since most all non-chaining clauses involve an aggressive action that is countered).

As for the rest of your comments, do you really want a more stable world? Really?

[kevin32891]

[quote name='d3filed' timestamp='1314799029' post='2791588']
but the million dollar question is why anybody cares about the naac
[/quote]

I don't care about NAAC.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1314799821' post='2791595']
There's always been some give and take on the issue. However, if a protectorate treaty is worded such that an attack on the protectorate is legally interpreted as an attack on the protecting alliance, then the protecting alliance's allies can be drawn in without the non-chaining clause coming into play (particularly since most all non-chaining clauses involve an aggressive action that is countered).

As for the rest of your comments, do you really want a more stable world? Really?
[/quote]

I rather think WorldConqueror's interpretation of protectorates would lead to a less stable world, or at least a more rational one.

Edit - Grammar

Edited August 31, 2011 by Leet Guy

[Goldie]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1314799821' post='2791595']
There's always been some give and take on the issue. However, if a protectorate treaty is worded such that an attack on the protectorate is legally interpreted as an attack on the protecting alliance, then the protecting alliance's allies can be drawn in without the non-chaining clause coming into play (particularly since most all non-chaining clauses involve an aggressive action that is countered).
[/quote]

If an alliance enters a war through a treaty they have with another alliance, it does not obligate their other allies to enter as well. That is the definition of non-chaining. The treaty level you have with the person you go in to defend does not change the non-chaining nature of your other treaties. I don't see how one type of treaty can magically change that definition for all other treaties.