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Schattenmann

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[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1314253097' post='2788031']
I think you're reading a little bit too much into the situation.[/quote]I'll agree.
[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1314253097' post='2788031']DK was asking if what we did was worth it. I was naturally assuming (based on how he asked) that he doesn't believe it was, and called him on that. He obviously has the right to his opinion. I was simply pointing out the obvious bias at place and why I don't take DK's word for much.
[/quote]
I think you're correct, but I didn't pick anything up in terms of him thinking it's not worth it based on his personal position, but on an academic level.
Anyway, these discussion are good and fun.

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The real impact of Vox Populi is that, in the process of speaking out against the hegemonic world, they gave legitimacy to all those people who complained about things from behind closed doors. Thanks to Vox, things that were normally discussed only in smokey back rooms were brought out into the public forum. I wonder how many of those who fought in the Karma War would have really had the testicular fortitude to stand against NPO without the daily inspiration provided by Vox Populi.

ChairmanHal is right, of course, in saying that Vox did not, and probably never would have, brought about the physical destruction of The Continuum. In the end, I am very glad that I started SSX instead of coming on board when Vox started. Fighting a war against Valhalla with a small gang of 10-15 day old nations is still one of the greatest moments I have had in my time here.

Let us hope we can both see the day where the justice which we have been fighting for all of these years truly comes to pass.

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[quote name='Vasuda' timestamp='1314352436' post='2788691']I wonder how many of those who fought in the Karma War would have really had the testicular fortitude to stand against NPO without the daily inspiration provided by Vox Populi.[/quote]

Your question has merit, but I can promise you that the average member of the Viridian Entente, GOD, and Ordo Verde could have cared less what Vox Populi was doing and [i]did[/i] make that stand which at the time, everyone in those respective alliances believed it possibly may have been their last.

Vox was important, but it was the actions of others who still had something to lose, who changed history.

Edited by Bill Wallace
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[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1314597768' post='2790398']
Your question has merit, but I can promise you that the average member of the Viridian Entente, GOD, and Ordo Verde could have cared less what Vox Populi was doing and [b][i]did[/i] make that stand which at the time, everyone in those respective alliances believed it possibly may have been their last.
[/b]
Vox was important, but it was the actions of others who still had something to lose, who changed history.
[/quote]

I think somebody is dramatizing things just a bit... ;)

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[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1314624041' post='2790477']
I think somebody is dramatizing things just a bit... ;)
[/quote]
Haha yeah you're right. Drink a little booze and all of a sudden I'm a drama queen.

Let me try again -

...everyone in those respective alliances believed [s]it possibly may have been their last[/s] they were going to get their butts whooped.

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[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1315063961' post='2793658']
What happened to Nintenderek?
[/quote]
Ninten went wherever post-Vox then joined Asriel Belacqua in the reformation of Browncoats. BCs peaked around like 20 members or something, then inexplicably lost all its members except Nintenderek. So, now Nintenderek rules Browncoats as dictator with an iron fist.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1315115315' post='2794447']
Ninten went wherever post-Vox then joined Asriel Belacqua in the reformation of Browncoats. BCs peaked around like 20 members or something, then inexplicably lost all its members except Nintenderek. So, now Nintenderek rules Browncoats as dictator with an iron fist.
[/quote]
IIRC, they actually peaked at 6.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1315115315' post='2794447']
Ninten went wherever post-Vox then joined Asriel Belacqua in the reformation of Browncoats. BCs peaked around like 20 members or something, then inexplicably lost all its members except Nintenderek. So, now Nintenderek rules Browncoats as dictator with an iron fist.
[/quote]

Long live Nintenderek, CN's greatest nation-builder!

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1315437905' post='2796539']
IIRC, they actually peaked at 6.
[/quote]

8 was their peak I believe, although they held at 6 before their little thingy with 57th.

Edited by KainIIIC
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[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1315410964' post='2796341']
Vox Populi was probably the most fun, entertaining, and important thing that I ever did in CN.

I'll never forget that one.
[/quote]
So, if you do things that are fun, it apparently leaves a pretty strong a memory track in the brain. Tell a scholar, deth2munkies, if you think your brain got stronger during that experience?

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[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1315499533' post='2796880']
So, if you do things that are fun, it apparently leaves a pretty strong a memory track in the brain. Tell a scholar, deth2munkies, if you think your brain got stronger during that experience?
[/quote]
Yeah, it did. During that time, I never actually flew the Vox AA, but I supported them every way I could. I ended up leaving the alliance that I started in and the security blanket that provided and fought for something I believed in. It helped me grow as a ruler and a person, even if not so much in infra. I also got nuked for the first time. Not just nuked, but first strike nuked while I had none of my own. By your own very alliance :)

Doitzel was one of my favorite guys to hang out with in all of CN, and I'm sad he's no longer around, the rest of Vox leadership was by and large good peeps too.

Although, any movement of that sort attracted certain malcontents that wanted to use the name for their own personal vendettas and spout inane nonsense, but those people were pretty well excluded.

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[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1315500075' post='2796882']
Yeah, it did. During that time, I never actually flew the Vox AA, but I supported them every way I could. I ended up leaving the alliance that I started in and the security blanket that provided and fought for something I believed in. It helped me grow as a ruler and a person, even if not so much in infra. I also got nuked for the first time. [b]Not just nuked, but first strike nuked while I had none of my own. By your own very alliance[/b] :)

Doitzel was one of my favorite guys to hang out with in all of CN, and I'm sad he's no longer around, the rest of Vox leadership was by and large good peeps too.

Although, any movement of that sort attracted certain malcontents that wanted to use the name for their own personal vendettas and spout inane nonsense, but those people were pretty well excluded.
[/quote]

I'm glad you like the way we operate.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1314245374' post='2787985']
The fight against Duncan King and NATO, NPO, Valhalla, IRON, GGA, ODN, Viridian Entente, Polaris: That fight is over, it ended with Karma. The battle is with ourselves and with those that would replicate the old hegemony. Your attentions are misplaced, and that is the only foolishness in this discussion, old friend. We live in the present, we must make our fight in the present.
[/quote]
I know you have a different point of view, and you are entitled to it, but I see huge problems with this narrative, and saw them back long before Karma even ended. It was never enough to simply remove the hegemons from power. Stopping there would result, has resulted, in a simple shuffle of seats with new people assuming power, but without the basic changes in community mores that were required to ensure that the same old crimes would not simply be repeated by new actors.

No, it was never enough simply to defeat them. We had to defeat them so completely there was nothing but a charred crater remaining as a warning to those who would wield power in the future, so that they would not follow the same path. The moment the leadership of the various alliances involved decided that they would give Pacifica and her allies peace Karma failed.

Not a complete failure, no, and things looked bright enough for a bit that I talked myself into thinking I was wrong, that the community could put itself straight without such a display of violence, but subsequent events have shown I was right at the start. This community needed that smoking crater, it needed it badly, as a precedent. "We" as Karma failed to provide it, and the world we now live in is a consequence of that failure.

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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315524984' post='2797099']
I know you have a different point of view, and you are entitled to it, but I see huge problems with this narrative, and saw them back long before Karma even ended. It was never enough to simply remove the hegemons from power. Stopping there would result, has resulted, in a simple shuffle of seats with new people assuming power, but without the basic changes in community mores that were required to ensure that the same old crimes would not simply be repeated by new actors.

No, it was never enough simply to defeat them. We had to defeat them so completely there was nothing but a charred crater remaining as a warning to those who would wield power in the future, so that they would not follow the same path. The moment the leadership of the various alliances involved decided that they would give Pacifica and her allies peace Karma failed.

Not a complete failure, no, and things looked bright enough for a bit that I talked myself into thinking I was wrong, that the community could put itself straight without such a display of violence, but subsequent events have shown I was right at the start. This community needed that smoking crater, it needed it badly, as a precedent. "We" as Karma failed to provide it, and the world we now live in is a consequence of that failure.
[/quote]
Let's be honest here, it wouldn't matter what was done, people would still follow the old model because it's simple human nature. And continuing the fight against the Hegemony doesn't exactly do much to upset current world powers and whatever issues people have with them.

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[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1315527299' post='2797124']
Let's be honest here, it wouldn't matter what was done, people would still follow the old model because it's simple human nature.[/quote]

Oh? I dont agree. "Human nature" spans a pretty wide range, what we see here is a very very narrow subset. A large component of it is avoiding risks like the plague. People follow the old models because they are seen as having very low risk. If Karma had come to fruition and truly destroyed the old tyrants, then following the old models would be seen as having much higher risk, and this "human nature" would do the rest.

[quote]And continuing the fight against the Hegemony doesn't exactly do much to upset current world powers and whatever issues people have with them.
[/quote]

Do you see me fighting them?

That moment has passed, I only think it is important to understand what the mistake was that brought us to this point.

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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315529929' post='2797139']
Oh? I dont agree. "Human nature" spans a pretty wide range, what we see here is a very very narrow subset. A large component of it is avoiding risks like the plague. People follow the old models because they are seen as having very low risk. If Karma had come to fruition and truly destroyed the old tyrants, then following the old models would be seen as having much higher risk, and this "human nature" would do the rest.



Do you see me fighting them?

That moment has passed, I only think it is important to understand what the mistake was that brought us to this point.
[/quote]
I don't know about you, but I think that what happened to NPO in Karma was hardly pleasant and not something any alliance would want to see happen to them.

You seemed to be taking issue with Schatt's points, one of which was that we needed to move on from fighting the ghosts of power from the past.
[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1314245374' post='2787985']
Your attentions are misplaced, and that is the only foolishness in this discussion, old friend. We live in the present, we must make our fight in the present.
[/quote]

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[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1315530305' post='2797141']
I don't know about you, but I think that what happened to NPO in Karma was hardly pleasant and not something any alliance would want to see happen to them.[/quote]

It may not have been pleasant but it was hardly proportionate to their crimes, nor sufficient to dissuade imitators. Pacifica has never been about nation building anyway, the wars helped them peel off some of the dead weight they accrued during the long time period where people joined them for safety. It was unpleasant enough to re-enforce the fortress mentality that keeps the Body Republic easily controllable, without actually touching any of their core interests. It may not be going too far to suggest those wars saved Pacifica, they certainly did not destroy it.

So I have to say my point stands. If that is the worst thing that can happen to you for imitating Pacifica today, then the calculation works - the risk is less than the alternatives. Many alliances that went against Pacifica got much worse.

[quote]You seemed to be taking issue with Schatt's points, one of which was that we needed to move on from fighting the ghosts of power from the past. [/quote]

What I was taking issue with was one aspect of his narrative, which I would simplify and characterise as basically "Pacifica and lackeys were evil but we won that great battle and it is done." From there obviously we need to 'move on' as you say. But I think the narrative is deeply flawed, because we didnt actually *win* that great battle. I think the best we can claim is a draw of sorts. Yes, we won it on the battlefield, but we lost it in the backrooms, while the battlefields were still raging.

We do need to move on in a sense, for sure. There is no point in fighting battles that are over and done, and it is important to look to the future. But it is also important to learn the lessons of the past if you dont want to be stuck repeating them.

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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1315532861' post='2797158']
It may not have been pleasant but it was hardly proportionate to their crimes, nor sufficient to dissuade imitators. Pacifica has never been about nation building anyway, the wars helped them peel off some of the dead weight they accrued during the long time period where people joined them for safety. It was unpleasant enough to re-enforce the fortress mentality that keeps the Body Republic easily controllable, without actually touching any of their core interests. It may not be going too far to suggest those wars saved Pacifica, they certainly did not destroy it.

So I have to say my point stands. If that is the worst thing that can happen to you for imitating Pacifica today, then the calculation works - the risk is less than the alternatives. Many alliances that went against Pacifica got much worse.



What I was taking issue with was one aspect of his narrative, which I would simplify and characterise as basically "Pacifica and lackeys were evil but we won that great battle and it is done." From there obviously we need to 'move on' as you say. But I think the narrative is deeply flawed, because we didnt actually *win* that great battle. I think the best we can claim is a draw of sorts. Yes, we won it on the battlefield, but we lost it in the backrooms, while the battlefields were still raging.

We do need to move on in a sense, for sure. There is no point in fighting battles that are over and done, and it is important to look to the future. But it is also important to learn the lessons of the past if you dont want to be stuck repeating them.
[/quote]

For many of us that went to war against Pacifica in the Karma war, it was not about trying to destroy them. While that sentiment might have been foremost for some, for many it was simply a case of finally having had enough of watching friends go under as the Pacifica of old turned its baleful eye in their direction. The fact that even today many will tell you they expected to be crushed in the war and did not expect how it turned out in the end, should tell you a bit about the sentiment of 'enough is enough'. Make no mistake about it, we won. Maybe not the victory some were hoping for, but definitely the victory that some were hoping for. Not everyone had a goal of mashing up 'the great satan'. For some it was enough that a message had been conveyed in the strongest possible language and had been acknowledged accordingly by the recipients.

Personally i was a tad surprised at the fact that Pacifica precipitated a conflict at all, the buildup to the breaking point was clear to see, many had broken ranks with Pacifica and it ought to have been clear at that point that the winds were rising. I dont know, maybe they wanted to get the war done before the troubles got bigger.

As regards the situation today, i do not think any pragmatic person expected a benign utopia post Karma, matter of fact most people i talked to at the time expected an remarkable increase in jack-assery once the NPO was brought down [once it started to look like we had a chance after all]. The thoughts at the time were, 'we will deal with it when it comes knocking'.

So yeah, we are dealing with it today. I think it is still a pretty interesting place to be. Even if some think the end is nigh. While you are correct about many that went up against Pacifica in karma faring poorly in the long run, i put that down to general attrition and malaise after having climbed the last hill [that they could see at the time].

Everything said and done, the aftermath brought to the victors and by extension everyone else exactly what they had hoped for. Some had hoped to fill the power vacuum, some had hoped to go back to their insular off-site forum communities, the deed done, some had hoped to have an awesome war. It also brought learning, which was pleasing or depressing depending on the situation and lessons involved. Some of us learned the distaste that comes with coalitions, and the subsuming of better sense to the needs of the many, some of us learnt the inherent benefits of having a bigger mob that a coalition brings. Some of us saw the opportunity to get to know the former friend turned enemy all over again. Some of us just heaved a sigh of relief that the friends caught on the other side of the trenches were at peace again.

Edited by Alfred von Tirpitz
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