Jump to content

Remember, Remember


Recommended Posts

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1313465173' post='2781966']

From day 2 Continuum began trying to scare everyone with the Vox bogeyman who had come not to liberate, but to replace and rule instead of Continuum. The idea was farcical. It took us a couple weeks to realize this was going to last longer than the noCB War that precipitated it, and once that set in and we got introspective me decided and then broadcast loud and clear that Vox had no intrinsic responsibility, right, or interest in molding the global order that would come post-Continuum. We put it out from the minute we settled on it, we knew it was time for things to change and that we could motivate people to put their nations where their mouths were, but that after that our work was done.[/quote]

[i]OOC: This should kill my lunch hour... [/i]

All my conversations with LadyDakota, before and after the NoCB War/War of the Coalition centered on resisting NPO. Support for NpO in those early days was also part of the Vox menu, something that made absolutely no sense to me--"Orders was Orders" as far as I was concerned. If I could use one against the other, that was diamond encrusted gold bars. Sure later on members of both Orders claimed that, "yeah we pretty much hated each other", but looking in from the outside as someone hoping to exploit what I saw as a temporary division, doing anything to keep NpO and BLEU from going down was absolutely counter productive.

[quote]The bottom line is that the fantasy or reality of the post-Continuum rode on the backs of those who did have the power post-Continuum: C&G, SuperFriends, etc. If you all want the credit for doing the "real" work, then you can have the credit for the present, too, we never wanted it.[/quote]

Absolutely. The multipolar world that everyone assumed was open up did not. That is the fault of every member of the Karma Coalition that more or less kept the same treaty ties they ended the war with. Whether that was because the Karma Coalition was simply too exhausted by war to think about doing anything but holding position or because as I have always stated they were afraid the big, bad Pacifican bogeyman would raise up again like some horror movie monster, Planet Bob spent the next nearly two years crushing up Continuum "remnants/chunks/gravel/dust/fine powder". It's only now that we appear to have something resembling the multipolar world that was anticipated.

[quote]Everyone had their own reason. Clearly, some of our most prominent members just wanted to see NPO die die die. Others of us had broader motivations, others had third and fourth motivations. The structure of Vox Populi allowed for all of those interests to unite in a goal that accommodated all of us: Tear up Continuum.[/quote]

Indeed. As an aside, in a private moment on IRC one night I remember saying to Rish or TailsK or some such that I didn't so much think that we would win, I knew we would based on watching NPO and how they were acting, as I wondered aloud that once the hammer blows started coming down on NPO if those delivering them would actually stop or would they just keep going until there was nothing left, much as GOONS was blasted totally out of existence practically speaking. In some ways it would have been better if NPO had been disbanded, though in the end the general sense of stagnation and hand wringing about "Hegemony" would have still taken place to a lesser degree.

[quote]As your own feelings demonstrate, everyone's motivations were all over the map. I personally got banned from original GOONS's forum after Sponge joined Vox Populi because an ex-goon member of TOP posted and said that I joined Sponge's new alliance (in reality Sponge joined a week after the 11 founders and only after a lot of convincing). Why? Because of course Sponge wrecked GOONS. But [b][i]for me[/i][/b], it didn't matter [i]which [/i]alliance was getting rolled, it only mattered that it was happening again. It was fun for me to both finally have that groundswell against NPO/Continuum and see NpO get its comeuppance. And I still operate like that; CoJ didn't enter the DH-NPO War because I love NPO, we entered it because we had a treaty avenue and DH's actions didn't sit with me.
Others had their own opinions. People from VE came because Ardus' policy of kissing NPO and GGA ass while Polaris--who let VE reform--burned made them sick. Many came from Continuum AAs because they were tired of being used for dirty deeds.[/quote]

All of that is likely true, but the perspective from the other trench lines was "different", quite naturally. That is also something to keep in mind when looking back on anniversaries like this. It is easy to get nostalgic. It's far more difficult to place yourself properly back in your shoes at the time and remember what you were thinking and keep in mind what your enemy at the time knew and did not know.

[quote]They did both have to go, NPO did the work on NpO, and we got to work on Continuum while the getting was good.[/quote]

Methods clearly varied...also, alliances like Ragnarok placed themselves within the Continuum's sphere but didn't become members purposely--part of Hoo's strategy. It gave us the benefit of not being "on the menu" while at the same time gave us the freedom to not be at the beckon call of NPO. Not that NPO actually set up that many good fights during the Continuum era. I mean c'mon, GPA? <_<

[quote]And if they weren't they are now :P http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/Intel/lolHal2.jpg [/quote]

One of my better speeches...and it's pretty obvious that I'm foreshadowing something in addition to trying to restore discipline in the ranks...also obvious from the file name, there are speech critics everywhere. <_<

[quote]Hal, come on, you know why "good guys" like Ragnarok, VE, TOP, and Grämlins were targeted by Vox: You were all part of the structure of yes-men who were enabling all the nasty crap that Continuum was doing. You might have all started plotting in the shadows 3 months after Vox formed or might have been registering your objections in private, but when the rubber hit the road you were on the bandwagon and committing troops to Continuum's wars. [/quote]

Except that of the 4 wars that happened during my time at Rok, none of them, save for the last involved the Continuum. Also, forgetting my motivations, Rok in that era hated Echelon with a passion, didn't even have an embassy with NpO and Sponge was constantly calling us "\m/ 2.0" and tried at various points to have us rolled. None of that had anything to do with being Continuum waterboys.

Like I said...the benefit of not being on the menu while at the same time the freedom to not be at the beckon call of NPO. I could see looking back now though where some of you might have gotten a different impression, even if you were spying on our forums. Good intel is so hard to get. :P

[quote]For me, I was in Vox, so, I keep the ember of Vox glowing. For you and rehabilitated lapdogs like Crymson and Ardus, you were in Karma, so, you have to go with Karma. I don't pretend that Vox did all the work or deserves all the credit, but it is a matter of catalyst. Continuum was unassailable in the eyes of the general public, the members of the alliances that would make up Karma. No one thought of taking down Continuum as something that was possible, so attempts from people in governments to move away or oppose Continuum ended in member revolt and snitching. Vox Populi changed those people's minds, and without that, I think it is a sure thing that Karma would have been VE and maybe a couple direct allies getting their wigs split for daring to defend Ordo Verde, and there wouldn't have been any cowards to form a Coalition of Cowards among NPO's allies. People often said we had a Jesus complex, more accurately, maybe we had a John the Baptist complex ;)[/quote]

You're missing a bit of history.

Sure enough, Hoo and I and probably Hoo and a bunch of other people at various times talked about what comes after taking down Polaris and the last thing to do we concluded was to "climb the mountain". NPO was Everest. There simply was no other challenge worthy of our talents. If that sounds arrogant, remember that Rok had went from a handful of \m/ refugees and a few of their friends in October 2007 to sanction, a key member of SF and a well connected alliance, and 600 or so members in about 7-8 months. Anything seemed possible. By that December, fortunes had changed and we were fully expecting the Continuum to roll Rok and SF with us. We went on alert and then Hoo left. With nothing left to lose, we sought out allies for a final stand. That final stand became the possibility of holding our own by January, the growing belief that we might just win by February, and by March the hunted was the hunter. All of that happened without Vox. Like I said, people with nothing to lose can achieve much.

FYI: "Coalition of Coward" implies that the movement to Peace Mode by Valhalla and others wasn't a planned military tactic. It was always so. While Valhalla symbolically cancelled our direct treaty with NPO, the Continuum treaty obligated Valhalla to fight regardless. I know that some, in hindsight, have talked at length about how they strongly advocated for letting NPO burn, that sort of talk also went around the Val forums as well. But there was never any question as to our course of action, only some righteous venting and decisions being made to distance ourselves from NPO after the war. Thus Duckroll, and many other things that followed from IRON, Val, etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 120
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1313435848' post='2781480']
For a group of disgruntled has-beens and never-weres....yeah, we've done OK.



I think you missed the point completely, Hal.

Vox put the idea of a world without Pacifican domination into the minds of the NPO's detractors, NPO's allies and, most importantly, into the minds of the NPO membership. Considering that Vox was founded near the start of the noCB war -- when it was already clear who would win -- this effort was an uphill battle from the very start.

Vox made it clear that if this hegemony were ever overthrown, the world that followed would be in the hands of those who remained. There was no thought of dictating what could or could not follow. The point of the exercise was freedom; if people decided to throw it away, they would have no one to blame but themselves.
[/quote]

People tend to forget that NPO and friends became so obsessed with what Vox knew, how Vox was getting the information and who Vox spies were that a fair amount of energy was used solely on tracking Vox, this gave the alliances who ended up doing the muscle work the breathing room to plan.
Hell Zog, look at the amount of BTUs burned just trying to pry you from the senate.
Never doubt the cerebral importance to an insurgency.

I joined VOX II (yeah I was VOX I also :P) during its second week, from that time until the end I never saw or heard any post NPO plans, we all trusted you guys to do the right thing. Boy was I disappointed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Far, far too many :words: in here, so let me just say that I will never forgive vox for kicking me out of their IRC for saying hello :mad:

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1313465173' post='2781966']
As your own feelings demonstrate, everyone's motivations were all over the map. I personally got banned from original GOONS's forum....
[/quote]

Sorry, but that was not the original GOONS forum, more like v.3 or some such (yes, yes, I know what you meant, I just felt like pointing out that I very much miss the v.2 forums)

Link to post
Share on other sites

So, looking back on it now, are you happy with what you did? Sure, you helped topple the Empire but that Empire has been replaced by chaos and feuding lesser lords. The reps you hated have continued to go up with the buyer and the sender being the only things that changed. You created a power vacuum and two years later, we're still seeing the lesser powers fight over the spoils.

So, was it worth it?

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1314062051' post='2786467']
So, looking back on it now, are you happy with what you did? Sure, you helped topple the Empire but that Empire has been replaced by chaos and feuding lesser lords. The reps you hated have continued to go up with the buyer and the sender being the only things that changed. You created a power vacuum and two years later, we're still seeing the lesser powers fight over the spoils.

So, was it worth it?
[/quote]
I certainly feel it was worth it. Again, Vox Populi made no plans to be post-Continuum architects or masters; we trumpeted what we believed should happen whenever we could, and left it to the people to create what they wanted.
Most of the things that have happened probably could have been predicted. Many other things could not.
If you click the snapback for the Delendum quote in my OP ([snapback]841442[/snapback]) and read that thread, you'll see that MK had a lot of fun ridiculing Ardus and the Viridian Entente--he/VE was a snotty pet of both NPO and Polaris and in turn they had their own snotty pet in Ephriam Grey/Andromeda while their all-time best buddy GOD was known for its sanctions and PZI sentences for raid victims that dared fight back. Who would have guessed that Mushroom Kingdom would go from deriding Ardus as a RP-homo/srs bsns NPO toady to promoting him to second in command? At the same time, if you had told anyone in 2009 that an MK with Ardus in charge of all external matters would do the exact same punitive reps and blindside curbstomps as VE with Ardus in charge, yeah, [i]no duh[/i].
Looking at Grämlins and Citadel in context of the time, who thought that both Citadel and Grämlins would collapse under their own internal divisions instead of being strong cultural leaders?
I think there is a big X factor that Vox failed to consider in the utter terror of Superfriends and C&G in a resurgent NPO boogeyman. Vox's members had no fear of NPO and no question that once freed anyone would go back to them, so, naturally, why should anyone else have those fears? If you told me that Superfriends and C&G, then later Pandora's Box and Dos Equis would all create an inextricably allied bloc that makes Continuum look like a rough draft because everyone was [i]still [/i]afraid of NPO and its allied resources Invicta and Legion, I would have fallen off my chair laughing.

In terms of your analysis that lesser powers have been fighting over spoils, I must simply disagree. What spoils? What fighting?
Post-Karma, the wars that were fought were by-and-large between marginal powers over marginal issues. Several with micros I never knew happened, a couple GDI wars, RAD-NSO (pfft, RAD?) over a RAD lulz thread, Athens' attack on Kinghts of Ni!, The Athens-TPF war, GLOF-57th war, a series of FORA raids listed as wars for whatever reason, Six Million Dollar War, a bunch of GOONS-micro raids, commie drama, Ninjas/FnKa-GOONS, NEW-Dark Fist, FAN-MFO. That brings us up to Pandora's Box on Polaris and Doomhouse on NPO.
When you take those, most of the ones that stand out were barely wars. Athens-TPF last Dec 27-Jan 2 and was just a stomp of an ex-Heg AA with no hope of defense. The NpO-\m/ and TOP/C&G war were exactly what one alternate name called them: The Shortbus War, they were the result of emotional conflicts from Grub's reaction to \m/'s bad 'tude to TOP's rash declaration based on dislike--it was huge and global but it wasn't a political war meant to settle any big global questions. The Six Million Dollar War was, again, one largely-disenfranchised alliance getting smacked around by Superfriends. NEW-Dark Fist saw NEW abandoned by its allies and no ambition on NEW's part, just a raid. PB-NpO was a farce with a double agent fabricating a war and VE gladly accepting with its allies jumping in to kick ex-Heg head in, and DH-NPO was more of the same since NPO and Poalris were both so isolated that engaging both at once wasn't even close to a gamble.

The "spoils" were already won at the end of the Karma War: global leadership and the power to do whatever you wanted. SF, C&G, and PB all worked together or looked away to ensure that they all stayed on top while kicking around easy pickings to keep their members active.

The ideals and the potential results were worth every minute of Vox's 9 months. The 3 years that have followed are the result of the majority of Karma alliances allowing a minority of NPO allies associates to get away with murder in exchange for keeping NPO down despite NPO being down all by itself. It is a big disappointment, but it is impossible to wish away our work with retrospect based on the bad acts of people who were bad actors before Vox Populi ever existed; they were in power and doing these things by virtue of their connections to Continuum/NPO, and the weak minds of Karma left them in power/empowered them again with the so-obviously false idea that only NPO was the problem. And that has nothing to do with Vox work against Continuum--you'll even recall we declared our opening war on Valhalla and GGA, not NPO for that very reason: it was the cloud around NPO, not NPO.

Edited by Schattenmann
Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1314062051' post='2786467']
So, looking back on it now, are you happy with what you did? Sure, you helped topple the Empire but that Empire has been replaced by chaos and feuding lesser lords. The reps you hated have continued to go up with the buyer and the sender being the only things that changed. You created a power vacuum and two years later, we're still seeing the lesser powers fight over the spoils.

So, was it worth it?
[/quote]
Of course it was worth it. Things are boring with the same alliance on top for two years. CN got shaken up when NPO lost power. No one should really care that MK and their lackeys have taken the helm as the "bad side" either. The ONLY reason why they should be overthrown is because they've been in power for over two years and their reign is stale. Moralists talk about how they want to destroy MK/lackeys because of the "unjustices" they've done since Karma. Oh please. Where would CN be without the "bad side". It's also clear that the Karma War was never a war for revenge. Maybe for some it was, but for most leaders of the Karma Coalition, it was merely a political war for power. Most of the Karma alliances were just as "evil" as the Hegemony coalition. ODN, MHA, Sparta, VE, RoK, and others never looked at NPO/1v in disgust when they were rolling NoVision, BLEU, and CnG in stupid wars. They rolled with them in those wars and left the sinking ship when it became clear NPO was about to get rolled. I don't know why we all believed the post-NPO world was going to some new Golden Age without "evil". We shouldn't believe it either when SF gets rolled next war. We also shouldn't believe it when MK eventually loses power. Vox was a great thing, but the only thing it did was [i]help[/i] get NPO out of power. That was the goal of Vox and they succeeded.

Edited by Ryan Greenberg
Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember I was gov of FCC and The Citadel at the time, where I did my part to bring down the hegemony of the time. I did sympathize with Vox Populi's cause, even if it was annoying when they posted screenshots of The Citadel, which caused extra paranoia for gov to post anything important in the lower forum areas.

While most of the big alliance leader actors wouldn't post on OWF much, Vox Populi kept the forums livelier with more public confrontation towards the hegemony of the time, where otherwise there would be mostly silence. While alliance leaders rarely publicly supported Vox on the OWF, many thought they were a good force of change even if some of their allies saw Vox Populi as an enemy due to most alliances being allied to NPO one way or another back then.

Edited by Methrage
Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1314062051' post='2786467']
So, looking back on it now, are you happy with what you did? Sure, you helped topple the Empire but that Empire has been replaced by chaos and feuding lesser lords. The reps you hated have continued to go up with the buyer and the sender being the only things that changed. You created a power vacuum and two years later, we're still seeing the lesser powers fight over the spoils.

So, was it worth it?
[/quote]
You should be EZI'd.

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1313432240' post='2781428']
Vox had a mission: bring down NPO, even if they had to make a deal with the Devil to do it. What they didn't have was a real plan for what followed, just this fantasy about how we'd all be rewarded from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, something something the trains will run on time.
[/quote]

I think what they had was a single-issue coalition. The normal thing there is that everyone has different ideas outside of that issue. Only the ability to set all else aside in favour of that common goal allows such a group to function, which is why they tend to dissolve as soon as the idea that the job is done sets in.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1313465173' post='2781966']
For me, I was in Vox, so, I keep the ember of Vox glowing. For you and rehabilitated lapdogs like Crymson and Ardus, you were in Karma, so, you have to go with Karma. I don't pretend that Vox did all the work or deserves all the credit, but it is a matter of catalyst. Continuum was unassailable in the eyes of the general public, the members of the alliances that would make up Karma. [/quote]

It seems to me I first saw people start more-or-less openly hinting Continuum wasnt invulnerable right after the first alliance in history withdrew from it. Maybe that's just me.

[quote]I never really ... got BC. They had a parallel mission, but they were skeezy with Vox.
[/quote]

I still think BC was a Pacifican frontjob. Re-read the last two threads, the disbandment and the other one started just before it...

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1314070229' post='2786580']
who thought that both Citadel and Grämlins would collapse under their own internal divisions instead of being strong cultural leaders?
[/quote]
This guy! Well, not the Gramlin part but the Citadel part failing due to internal divisions could easily be seen from anyone that was remotely involved in the project.

Nevertheless, if the Schatt says it was worth it then it was worth it in my book.

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1314062051' post='2786467']
So, looking back on it now, are you happy with what you did? Sure, you helped topple the Empire but that Empire has been replaced by chaos and feuding lesser lords. The reps you hated have continued to go up with the buyer and the sender being the only things that changed. You created a power vacuum and two years later, we're still seeing the lesser powers fight over the spoils.

So, was it worth it?
[/quote]
Yes I am happy, and yes it was very worth it. I can see where you could be confused as to whether the post-Vox era is better than the pre-Vox, but that's because you were part of the "upper class" of the time, despite your alliance's irrelevance in the grand scheme of things. Yours are the people who fell from grace. Clearly you'd think the new world is the lesser of the two eras. For those of us who had to fight and claw to make a simple existence for ourselves possible, this time of "feuding lesser lords" is our time. We are the "lesser lords" and we like it that way.

Edited by Captain Flinders
Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1314062051' post='2786467']
So, looking back on it now, are you happy with what you did? Sure, you helped topple the Empire but that Empire has been replaced by chaos and feuding lesser lords. The reps you hated have continued to go up with the buyer and the sender being the only things that changed. You created a power vacuum and two years later, we're still seeing the lesser powers fight over the spoils.

So, was it worth it?
[/quote]

"We should have continued living under tyranny because oppression creates stability and stability brings peace."

You're brilliant.

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1314132279' post='2787098']
Yes I am happy, and yes it was very worth it. I can see where you could be confused as to whether the post-Vox era is better than the pre-Vox, but that's because you were part of the "upper class" of the time, despite your alliance's irrelevance in the grand scheme of things. Yours are the people who fell from grace. Clearly you'd think the new world is the lesser of the two eras. For those of us who had to fight and claw to make a simple existence for ourselves possible, this time of "feuding lesser lords" is our time. We are the "lesser lords" and we like it that way.
[/quote]
Duncan King spent considerable actual money and political capital opposing PZI before Vox or Karma, most notably paying GOD millions to free KaiserMartens. He has also been supportive of Vox in just about every anniversary thread; I take the question for just what it seems like: An honest question.
To turn things around, I think it's rather convenient for you as one of DK's "lesser powers" to assume some intrinsic right to do whatever you want because NPO did it. Especially considering NoR already got their turn while you were shacked-up with NPO in the good ol' days.

Edited by Schattenmann
Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1314156554' post='2787454']
Duncan King spent considerable actual money and political capital opposing PZI before Vox or Karma, most notably paying GOD millions to free KaiserMartens. He has also been supportive of Vox in just about every anniversary thread; I take the question for just what it seems like: An honest question.[/quote]
If you really believe NATO and DK are blameless for their part in the Continuum, then you are being willfully ignorant. NATO went out their way to make my first formative months on this planet as difficult as possible. Going so far as to ban me from their forums. My crime? Being part of NoV. I was harassed and slandered on a personal level. DK was there, I remember it vividly. He is no hero of people and to give him recognition on the same level of Vox in a Vox thread is insulting.

[quote]To turn things around, I think it's rather convenient for you as one of DK's "lesser powers" to assume some intrinsic right to do whatever you want because NPO did it.
[/quote]
I have never assumed any kind of right, nor have I ever said anything to that effect.

Edited by Captain Flinders
Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1314171419' post='2787567']
If you really believe NATO and DK are blameless for their part in the Continuum, then you are being willfully ignorant. NATO went out their way to make my first formative months on this planet as difficult as possible. Going so far as to ban me from their forums. My crime? Being part of NoV. I was harassed and slandered on a personal level. DK was there, I remember it vividly. He is no hero of people and to give him recognition on the same level of Vox in a Vox thread is insulting.[/quote]
People evolve and change. I myself have gone from the worst sort of GOONS slime to Presbyter of Justitia's Cult. It may be true that Duncan King was part of NATO, which persecuted you for being a Norden Verein refugee, and may even have been directly involved in that persecution. But it is also true that when Duncan King was in charge of Zenith, his own alliance, and free to do what he wanted, he paid GOD $90,000,000 to remove KaiserMartens, [b][i]THE [/i][/b]NoV refugee, off of their PZI list, and brought KM into his alliance and protected him from that same persecution for many months. I don't give DK the "same level" of recognition as Vox people, but I can recognize DK's redeeming traits. And unlike your ex-Karma friends, ex-Heg Duncan King hasn't been running around charging reps from defensive combatants, OOC attacking people, or curbstomping alliances that get too big for his comfort anytime in the past 3 years, and if that's what he [i]wanted [/i]to do, there are plenty of alliances he could join or ally himself to to do it, not a few of which were his allies pre-Karma.

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1314171419' post='2787567']
I have never assumed any kind of right, nor have I ever said anything to that effect.
[/quote]
Then you will forgive my misunderstanding of your concluding point
[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1314132279' post='2787098']For those of us who had to fight and claw to make a simple existence for ourselves possible, this time of "feuding lesser lords" is our time. We are the "lesser lords" and we like it that way.
[/quote]which I interpreted in context of Nordreich's involvement in the unjustified aggressive attack on their former benefactor NPO.

Edited by Schattenmann
Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1314200849' post='2787681']
Duncan King hasn't been running around charging reps from defensive combatants, OOC attacking people, or curbstomping alliances that get too big for his comfort anytime in the past 3 years, and if that's what he [i]wanted [/i]to do, there are plenty of alliances he could join or ally himself to to do it, not a few of which were his allies pre-Karma.[/quote]
Of course he isn't. Because he did all that already. And now he's on the other side of the fence. Maybe not the receiving end of the barrel, but my initial point stands. Which is that former Heg complaining about post Karma or Vox's influence holds little to no relevance in reality because it is their world that we tore down.

[quote]which I interpreted in context of Nordreich's involvement in the unjustified aggressive attack on their former benefactor NPO.
[/quote]
Then you are foolish for interpreting it that way. I'm not even sure how you make that stretch. What I was saying is that, if by DK's words, we are lesser lords fighting for our place in this world, I much, much prefer it to the world where he was the upper lord and so many of us had to pay for his lofty ideals of global supremacy. And don't pull that "NPO benefactor" crap with me. Those are an ancient time and one long forgotten by both sides. Let's not forget, it was the Continuum, including the NPO, that declared war on NoV.

Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1314213053' post='2787742']
Of course he isn't. Because he did all that already. And now he's on the other side of the fence. Maybe not the receiving end of the barrel, but my initial point stands. Which is that former Heg complaining about post Karma or Vox's influence holds little to no relevance in reality because it is their world that we tore down.

Then you are foolish for interpreting it that way. I'm not even sure how you make that stretch. What I was saying is that, if by DK's words, we are lesser lords fighting for our place in this world, I much, much prefer it to the world where he was the upper lord and so many of us had to pay for his lofty ideals of global supremacy. And don't pull that "NPO benefactor" crap with me. Those are an ancient time and one long forgotten by both sides. Let's not forget, it was the Continuum, including the NPO, that declared war on NoV.
[/quote]
Flinders, you're killing me dragging me into this because I like NoR and I like you. But the simple fact of the matter is that you're letting your personal and Nordreich/Norden Verein's history get in the way of objectivity. The idea that Nordreich's NPO-enabled crimes 4.5 years ago are "ancient history" and therefore no longer matter, but that Duncan King's 4 year old actions are not is just silly. You know as well as I do that you did everything DK ever did with a similar power structure standing behind you to allow it, and the only reason you stopped was because NPO cut you off. It's [u]no different[/u] than DK stopping because Karma cut his connections.
For the same reason that I don't whale on DK the way I might rip on Anu Drake or Ardus, Nordreich got on board with reality after it hit rock bottom, and I don't think Vox could have asked for a better influx because you all knew more than most exactly why Vox was necessary. Just as Nordreich has a checkered past, sure, so does Duncan King, and like NoR, DK got his head on straight. It's borderline asinine to harp on about DK being a member of NATO for a while because of NATO's NAZI fever and ignore that Duncan King saved Kaiser Martens' tail. You. know. that.

It is also wholly fallacious to say that Duncan King has no right to voice his opinions because he was part of the Continuum power structure. It goes against everything that Vox Populi fought for to discount half the world's voices. We said and wrote a lot in those days, but the height of everything, the distilled message of Vox came on its last day:
[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1242858637' post='1543237']
There is much to say -- much that could be said, and much that should not. Our journey to this point has been a long one and the wisdom to discern such is one of the many gifts that have reached us. So for the sake of concision, we will spare you some (you're still in for a wall, though, so grab a chair). The trek has tired us greatly and hereafter we wish, as we always have, to simply move on. No terms, no stipulations, no grudges.

Move on to where, to what? Those are the obvious questions. On to a world where a man can speak his mind without having to fear for his livelihood. On to a world where honest and frank discussion is treasured rather than trashed. On to a world where basic political opposition is not considered the most damnable of crimes, and where "security" is not held above humanity. On to a world where the future is uncertain but bright, where no single power operates unchecked. On to a world we have sweat blood to forge.[/quote]
It is more than Duncan King--or anyone's--right to speak their mind, it is their responsibility. It is key to the realization of everything that Vox fought for, and speech is the continuation of Vox's mission which did not end with our charter suspension:
[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1242858637' post='1543237']To the world at large, we give warning. This is not the end of the struggle, for the struggle which Vox Populi has embraced is unending. It is a struggle against those who would take what is not theirs, those who would take advantage of all situations, those who seek nothing but personal gain without heed to the needs, thoughts, feelings, and well-being of others. It is a struggle against the purest form of practicality and pragmatism, which drives man to covet without any attention to morality, justice, or fairness. It is a struggle that shall end only when our kind are wiped from the planet for it is something we are all capable of.

And that is our warning. Do not relax your guard against this mentality. Do not dismiss the possibility of its creeping up and overtaking yourself or those close to you. To fall victim to the idea that the ends always justify the means where the means is your own self-promotion is something that comes easy and silently, but seldom can be snuffed out. Maintain your watch, keep in check those of this mindset, and prepare yourself always for a time when we must again take arms against such a threat -- for that is what it is. It is a threat to all of us, each and every one, and wherever this philosophy takes root so takes root a danger for all that we hold dear, in our own ways, to be cast down at our feet.

This victory is not permanent, and those who fight not would do well to keep that in mind. Divisions are unavoidable, but remember that we are only as strong united as we are weak divided. Do not again allow ambitious powers to slowly pick off opposition, one-by-one, and hoodwink you into conceding. Stand your ground always, tall and true to your ideals. Never, ever, ever give in, for as long as there is one other by your side you shall have purpose. Remember always when you took on the forces of oppression and let the strength of that memory spur you on. We may forgive, but we should never forget. And should the time come that men cannot speak their dissent, should the time come that alliances' sovereignty is revoked, should the time come that communities are destroyed or repressed let those of noble spirit rise again to spearhead another Glorious Revolution against the darkness that engulfs them.

Until then, let us hope that day does not come. Even more, let us work to ensure that it does not. For now, let us enjoy this victory. It has been a long time in the coming, and truly the fruits of it have been building up for months. We can speak without fear of military retribution. Alliances may move about freely and give their members leeway to express themselves without reprisal. Defeated alliances are not having heels placed on their heads and their faces ground into the dirt. So let us rejoice. This is our victory, and it is well-earned! Celebrate it while it lasts, for nothing lasts forever.

Pro Populo![/quote]

The fight against Duncan King and NATO, NPO, Valhalla, IRON, GGA, ODN, Viridian Entente, Polaris: That fight is over, it ended with Karma. The battle is with ourselves and with those that would replicate the old hegemony. Your attentions are misplaced, and that is the only foolishness in this discussion, old friend. We live in the present, we must make our fight in the present.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you're reading a little bit too much into the situation. DK was asking if what we did was worth it. I was naturally assuming (based on how he asked) that he doesn't believe it was, and called him on that. He obviously has the right to his opinion. I was simply pointing out the obvious bias at place and why I don't take DK's word for much.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...