Remember, Remember

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1313355812' post='2780766']
English Catholics, and Anarchists, would disagree
[/quote]

English Catholics were the ones that would have advantaged from it, and frankly the only reason tweenage know-nothing anarchist think he's "cool" is because of the movie.

Guy Fawkes day is celebrated [b]because[/b] he got caught.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1313425828' post='2781344']
English Catholics were the ones that would have advantaged from it, and frankly the only reason tweenage know-nothing anarchist think he's "cool" is because of the movie.

Guy Fawkes day is celebrated [b]because[/b] he got caught.[/quote]

English and American history is filled with characters who lost the fight, but are remembered with a certain amount reverence because of the class/dedication/distinction/tenacity with which they fought. A fair number of people around here remember the old \m/ or Genmay fondly for much the same reason.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1313426419' post='2781349']
English and American history is filled with characters who lost the fight, but are remembered with a certain amount reverence because of the class/dedication/distinction/tenacity with which they fought.
[/quote]

That doesn't change the fact that Guy Fawkes literally tried to dismantle one bad form of government, the Lutheran Monarchy, and replace it with an (arguably worse) form of government, a Catholic theocracy. Which is why I've always found it odd that Vox, an organization dedicated to making the world better, takes lines from someone who attempted to overthrow the old world government and replace it with an even more oppressive government.

Then again, in some ways, this is exactly what has happened.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1313427292' post='2781357']
That doesn't change the fact that Guy Fawkes literally tried to dismantle one bad form of government, the Lutheran Monarchy, and replace it with an (arguably worse) form of government, a Catholic theocracy. Which is why I've always found it odd that Vox, an organization dedicated to making the world better, takes lines from someone who attempted to overthrow the old world government and replace it with an even more oppressive government.

Then again, in some ways, this is exactly what has happened.[/quote]

Vox had a mission: bring down NPO, even if they had to make a deal with the Devil to do it. What they didn't have was a real plan for what followed, just this fantasy about how we'd all be rewarded from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, something something the trains will run on time.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1313427292' post='2781357']
That doesn't change the fact that Guy Fawkes literally tried to dismantle one bad form of government, the Lutheran Monarchy, and replace it with an (arguably worse) form of government, a Catholic theocracy. Which is why I've always found it odd that Vox, an organization dedicated to making the world better, takes lines from someone who attempted to overthrow the old world government and replace it with an even more oppressive government.

Then again, in some ways, this is exactly what has happened.
[/quote]
His face (but himself as well) became an easily recognizable symbol of Revolt. People sometimes become larger than their lives.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1313416328' post='2781303']
However, the real heavy lifting, the actual overthrow of NPO was carried out by the likes of MK, [b]Ragnarok[/b] and the like, not Vox.
[/quote]
In terms of getting nuked into the ground in Karma, I guess so.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1313434015' post='2781444']
In terms of getting nuked into the ground in Karma, I guess so.
[/quote]

Well you know why he mentioned RoK, he used to be government there. It's good when you can convince yourself you actually done something important. It's even better if you can convince other people that.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Omniscient1

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1313214637' post='2779270']
Someone didn't read the OoooooPeeeeee.

CoJ and NPO reside on the same sphere. We are both on the Red Sphere because the founding Justitians were all Red because we had just finished being in Vox Populi and stealing NPO's Senate for fun. Vox Populi did not seek to remove NPO from power because they were NPO, we removed them from power because of their actions. The test of Vox Populi's ideals was always their practice, and in cooperating with my Red neighbor NPO despite my personal disdain for their history I put into practice my Vox and Justitian ideals. We share the Senate and sometimes trade together, end of story.
[/quote]

You monster!

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1313432240' post='2781428']
just this fantasy about how we'd all be rewarded from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, something something the trains will run on time.
[/quote]

That was my favorite part.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Kzoppistan

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1313362214' post='2780867']The Vox graduating class has done quite well for itself....[/quote]

For a group of disgruntled has-beens and never-weres....yeah, we've done OK.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1313432240' post='2781428']
Vox had a mission: bring down NPO, even if they had to make a deal with the Devil to do it. What they didn't have was a real plan for what followed, just this fantasy about how we'd all be rewarded from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, something something the trains will run on time.
[/quote]

I think you missed the point completely, Hal.

Vox put the idea of a world without Pacifican domination into the minds of the NPO's detractors, NPO's allies and, most importantly, into the minds of the NPO membership. Considering that Vox was founded near the start of the noCB war -- when it was already clear who would win -- this effort was an uphill battle from the very start.

Vox made it clear that if this hegemony were ever overthrown, the world that followed would be in the hands of those who remained. There was no thought of dictating what could or could not follow. The point of the exercise was freedom; if people decided to throw it away, they would have no one to blame but themselves.

[New Frontier]

If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that the Vox founders could only dream of the type of successes ChairmanHal has enjoyed.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1313433226' post='2781436']
His face (but himself as well) became an easily recognizable symbol of Revolt. People sometimes become larger than their lives.
[/quote]

I understand, I just find it funny and in some cases downright ironic.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

Wasn't this the alliance that elected Nintenderek to gov? Congratulations on being the only alliance to overstress their self importance more than NSO.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

I don't see how one can speak condescendingly of those who stood while they themselves groveled or hid.

o/ Vox

We should all V our avatars in remembrance

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' timestamp='1313445425' post='2781712']
Wasn't this the alliance that elected Nintenderek to gov? Congratulations on being the only alliance to overstress their self importance more than NSO.
[/quote]
So close and yet so far. Get on this RV.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1313435848' post='2781480']
For a group of disgruntled has-beens and never-weres....yeah, we've done OK.[/quote]

Reading is fundamental. Some of you fail. You don't typically, so with much respect I'll address your remarks here and cheerfully ignore the haters, even though some of them pulled out their special extra sharp crayons just to try to poke at me.

The Vox of August 2008 poached members from Ragnarok (tried poaching me but failed) and generally made a royal pain of the ass of themselves to people who were fighting NpO and BLEU for reasons that may or may not have had anything to do with NPO. As for myself, NpO shot an alliance out from underneath me and I was going to get payback. Period. Sponge getting jettisoned from Polaris was a good start, but by no means the finish line. BLEU had to die. Polaris needed scourged. Complaints about NPO were the furthest thing from my mind. Indeed, those looking for the long term downfall of The Orders knew that Polaris had to be dealt with first, else you were never going to touch NPO. NoCB War? Hell, for me all the CB that was needed for the damn war was written by Sponge himself the previous September.

My opinions of Vox at the start of its existence are part of the record of these forums and they were valid at the time. Vox posted in favor of NpO. Vox attempted to hurt my alliance and my allies. That made you an enemy. Nothing personal. Ok, allowing Sponge in did not help you in my eyes, I'll just leave it at that.

My attitudes toward Vox did however evolve over time. That is also part of the record of these forums. No thanks to Doitzel, who did nothing to make me want to support you whatsoever--quite honestly it actually made me want to push Hoo to join the hunt of Vox and force the lot of you out. No, my attitude changed due to the fact that I saw Vox as useful for what needed to happen next. Schattenman also deserves some credit, so do people like yourself. As to the "has-beens and never-weres", you were, as a collection of people, exactly that. People with nothing left to lose, just a passionate goal. Had you been anything else, you wouldn't have been able to carry on the struggle, not like you did.

[quote]Vox put the idea of a world without Pacifican domination into the minds of the NPO's detractors, NPO's allies and, most importantly, into the minds of the NPO membership. Considering that Vox was founded near the start of the noCB war -- when it was already clear who would win -- this effort was an uphill battle from the very start.[/quote]

I believe that I gave Vox credit. Actually most of it should go to Schattenman who spent many, many hours of his own time on and all reporting and especially those who hid in alliances around Planet Bob and reported info out, some getting ZIed and PZIed for their trouble. They truly earned the lion's share of the Vox's credit. I understand that FAN's network of spies may also have played a part or did eventually. They too deserve credit and I have always given it.

But once again...

Vox without SF, C&G and everyone who came forward to form the Karma Coalition is but a voice in the wilderness. Saying a tree is hollow doesn't make it fall. Might makes it fall.

[quote]Vox made it clear that if this hegemony were ever overthrown, the world that followed would be in the hands of those who remained. There was no thought of dictating what could or could not follow. The point of the exercise was freedom; if people decided to throw it away, they would have no one to blame but themselves.[/quote]

That may have been true, but in August 2008, public perception was something else. Ultimately I've heard some of your number talk about how disbanding Vox was a mistake. It's not certain that Vox would have even been listened to anymore even if they hadn't.

FYI: Some of you did extremely well after Vox, yourself included of course and I never implied otherwise. Others...did not. But don't take my initial thoughts on Vox back then and my final analysis of their impact as being the whole story. Obviously there was more going on.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1313446667' post='2781734']
So close and yet so far. Get on this RV.
[/quote]

Don't bother. I am not willing to listen to reason or logic. My mind is made up on this matter.

[Biohazard]

Congrats; Happy VP day.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' timestamp='1313458554' post='2781871']
Don't bother. I am not willing to listen to reason or logic. My mind is made up on this matter.
[/quote]
Curses. This was our chance to be number one. :<

[zzzptm]

Question: will there be an observance to remember The Blackstone Collusion?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1313400874' post='2781261']
I don't know if any of us were even aware that it happened. In any event, the only thing we wanted out of a sanction was a flag.
[/quote]
Crymson, don't be stupid for the sake of acting smug. If you've forgotten, you're free to read TOP's reactions to the operation in the Amazing Sanction Race, starting on page 537, November 24, 2008 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=11169&st=10720

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1313432240' post='2781428']
Vox had a mission: bring down NPO, even if they had to make a deal with the Devil to do it. What they didn't have was a real plan for what followed, just this fantasy about how we'd all be rewarded from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, something something the trains will run on time.
[/quote]
From day 2 Continuum began trying to scare everyone with the Vox bogeyman who had come not to liberate, but to replace and rule instead of Continuum. The idea was farcical. It took us a couple weeks to realize this was going to last longer than the noCB War that precipitated it, and once that set in and we got introspective me decided and then broadcast loud and clear that Vox had no intrinsic responsibility, right, or interest in molding the global order that would come post-Continuum. We put it out from the minute we settled on it, we knew it was time for things to change and that we could motivate people to put their nations where their mouths were, but that after that our work was done.

The bottom line is that the fantasy or reality of the post-Continuum rode on the backs of those who did have the power post-Continuum: C&G, SuperFriends, etc. If you all want the credit for doing the "real" work, then you can have the credit for the present, too, we never wanted it.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1313449942' post='2781782']
The Vox of August 2008 poached members from Ragnarok (tried poaching me but failed) and generally made a royal pain of the ass of themselves to people who were fighting NpO and BLEU for reasons that may or may not have had anything to do with NPO.[/quote]
Everyone had their own reason. Clearly, some of our most prominent members just wanted to see NPO die die die. Others of us had broader motivations, others had third and fourth motivations. The structure of Vox Populi allowed for all of those interests to unite in a goal that accommodated all of us: Tear up Continuum.
[quote]As for myself, NpO shot an alliance out from underneath me and I was going to get payback. Period. Sponge getting jettisoned from Polaris was a good start, but by no means the finish line. BLEU had to die. Polaris needed scourged. Complaints about NPO were the furthest thing from my mind. Indeed, those looking for the long term downfall of The Orders knew that Polaris had to be dealt with first, else you were never going to touch NPO. NoCB War? Hell, for me all the CB that was needed for the damn war was written by Sponge himself the previous September.[/quote]
As your own feelings demonstrate, everyone's motivations were all over the map. I personally got banned from original GOONS's forum after Sponge joined Vox Populi because an ex-goon member of TOP posted and said that I joined Sponge's new alliance (in reality Sponge joined a week after the 11 founders and only after a lot of convincing). Why? Because of course Sponge wrecked GOONS. But [b][i]for me[/i][/b], it didn't matter [i]which [/i]alliance was getting rolled, it only mattered that it was happening again. It was fun for me to both finally have that groundswell against NPO/Continuum and see NpO get its comeuppance. And I still operate like that; CoJ didn't enter the DH-NPO War because I love NPO, we entered it because we had a treaty avenue and DH's actions didn't sit with me.
Others had their own opinions. People from VE came because Ardus' policy of kissing NPO and GGA ass while Polaris--who let VE reform--burned made them sick. Many came from Continuum AAs because they were tired of being used for dirty deeds.
They did both have to go, NPO did the work on NpO, and we got to work on Continuum while the getting was good.

[quote]My opinions of Vox at the start of its existence are part of the record of these forums and they were valid at the time. Vox posted in favor of NpO. Vox attempted to hurt my alliance and my allies. That made you an enemy. Nothing personal. Ok, allowing Sponge in did not help you in my eyes, I'll just leave it at that.[/quote]
And if they weren't they are now http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/Intel/lolHal2.jpg
Hal, come on, you know why "good guys" like Ragnarok, VE, TOP, and Grämlins were targeted by Vox: You were all part of the structure of yes-men who were enabling all the nasty crap that Continuum was doing. You might have all started plotting in the shadows 3 months after Vox formed or might have been registering your objections in private, but when the rubber hit the road you were on the bandwagon and committing troops to Continuum's wars.

[quote]My attitudes toward Vox did however evolve over time. That is also part of the record of these forums.[/quote]
That is also very true, and true of most people to their credit. It was easy for people to brush us off at first, we didn't know what was happening so you guys certainly couldn't have been expected to just love us.
[quote] No thanks to Doitzel, who did nothing to make me want to support you whatsoever--quite honestly it actually made me want to push Hoo to join the hunt of Vox and force the lot of you out. No, my attitude changed due to the fact that I saw Vox as useful for what needed to happen next. Schattenman also deserves some credit, so do people like yourself. As to the "has-beens and never-weres", you were, as a collection of people, exactly that. People with nothing left to lose, just a passionate goal. Had you been anything else, you wouldn't have been able to carry on the struggle, not like you did.
I believe that I gave Vox credit. Actually most of it should go to Schattenman who spent many, many hours of his own time on and all reporting and especially those who hid in alliances around Planet Bob and reported info out, some getting ZIed and PZIed for their trouble. They truly earned the lion's share of the Vox's credit. I understand that FAN's network of spies may also have played a part or did eventually. They too deserve credit and I have always given it.[/quote]
Thanks. TWiP and The Tattler could not have happened without the spies and while my idea was great it couldn't have happened without the very brave spies. In a culture like NPO, especially, it took[i] a lot[/i] of nerve for those guys to get on board with Vox.

[quote]But once again...

Vox without SF, C&G and everyone who came forward to form the Karma Coalition is but a voice in the wilderness. Saying a tree is hollow doesn't make it fall. Might makes it fall.[/quote]
For me, I was in Vox, so, I keep the ember of Vox glowing. For you and rehabilitated lapdogs like Crymson and Ardus, you were in Karma, so, you have to go with Karma. I don't pretend that Vox did all the work or deserves all the credit, but it is a matter of catalyst. Continuum was unassailable in the eyes of the general public, the members of the alliances that would make up Karma. No one thought of taking down Continuum as something that was possible, so attempts from people in governments to move away or oppose Continuum ended in member revolt and snitching. Vox Populi changed those people's minds, and without that, I think it is a sure thing that Karma would have been VE and maybe a couple direct allies getting their wigs split for daring to defend Ordo Verde, and there wouldn't have been any cowards to form a Coalition of Cowards among NPO's allies. People often said we had a Jseus complex, more accurately, maybe we had a John the Baptist complex

[quote]That may have been true, but in August 2008, public perception was something else. Ultimately I've heard some of your number talk about how disbanding Vox was a mistake. It's not certain that Vox would have even been listened to anymore even if they hadn't.[/quote]
As I noted above, Vox was a movement with specific goals founded in a specific time for that specific time, there was no reason not to [i]suspend our charter[/i] (we did not disband ) People that wanted us to keep going were people that wanted to keep being entertained or who didn't fully understand us.

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1313460948' post='2781914']
Question: will there be an observance to remember The Blackstone Collusion?
[/quote]
I never really ... got BC. They had a parallel mission, but they were skeezy with Vox. For example, we had at least one Blackstone liaison on our spy forum, I posted a security update regarding screenshots from a certain Alliance X's forum and their method of detecting spies. A few days later, someone queries me on IRC and asks if I had heard the news about Alliance X's forum, it was an important security update. I said well what is it, so the person links me to a screenshot from Blackstone's forum with this security update. It was a copy/paste job of [i][b]my[/b][/i] security update from our spy forum, but with no credit or sourcing info. It was skeezy.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Ryan Greenberg]

At least Vox made things entertaining with TWiP and the Tattler. So did Q when they were rolling everyone and so did Polaris when Sponge rolled an alliance a week. You actually saw a lot of wars back in 2008. Now we have anime wars and pony alliances.

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1313460948' post='2781914']
Question: will there be an observance to remember The Blackstone Collusion?
[/quote]They helped cause the Karma War, so yes.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1313467629' post='2781978']
At least Vox made things entertaining with TWiP and the Tattler. So did Q when they were rolling everyone and so did Polaris when Sponge rolled an alliance a week. You actually saw a lot of wars back in 2008. Now we have anime wars and pony alliances.
[/quote]

The truth. It burns. It burns.

[Ayatollah Bromeini]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1313467629' post='2781978']
At least Vox made things entertaining with TWiP and the Tattler. So did Q when they were rolling everyone and so did Polaris when Sponge rolled an alliance a week. You actually saw a lot of wars back in 2008. Now we have anime wars and pony alliances.
[/quote]

With all of the opposition to the powers that be that came about from the last war, I'm kind of suprised that something similar to Vox didn't/doesn't return.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1313510602' post='2782191']
With all of the opposition to the powers that be that came about from the last war, I'm kind of suprised that something similar to Vox didn't/doesn't return.
[/quote]
It would be laughable if it did. There is no equivalent to NPO's hegemony today. Sure you might have some alliances or groups of alliances with more power than others, but they aren't pulling the same kind of !@#$ that Pacifica was doing in their "glory" days. Sometimes I feel like people forget that.