Is This Legit?

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1313050399' post='2777433']
You say that here, your Prince seems to indicate differently when he thought it was private.

As for me acting like you are actively wanting to keep them isolated after the war...I don't think it's me acting that way. I can't imagine any other meaning out of that statement. Your Prince wants 3 blocs and the non-bloc bloc DH to secure power. SF destroyed, XX reduced and Mj with less influence.

He literally stated that as one of your FA goals. Not that he wanted a more influential and powerful Mj. Sure you could accommodate that but Ardus' seems to have a plan that doesn't include you accommodating it.

What you could do and what you plan on doing seem to branch. You could do a lot of different things, but seem to plan on the course of action Ardus laid out for FOK.

It seems to have convinced FOK to drop their Fark treaty. So good work on that front.
[/quote]
Nowhere did he say he thought they should have [i]less[/i] influence. Nor did he say that we'd work to isolate them. If that was the case, signing a treaty with Nordreich would be pretty silly.

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1313054084' post='2777455']
Its clear you think they are a bad bloc [i](not without recruiting people far worse than Mjolnir)[/i] that is willing, in your opinion not to be trusted [i](and far more willing to cut our throats)[/i]. Its also clear no matter how hard they work or fight you will make sure they never build enough power to make you uncomfortable [i](I plan on a world where Mjolnir's influence is nominal, [u]even with a hard earned military victory[/u])[/i]

So no you wont "allow" them (like its your power to give) to become more powerful or influential
[/quote]
You don't know the context of the post. It was responding to some having a lot of apprehension about and distrust of Mjolnir. It's also the case that not every MK member and not all of our allies like every member of Mjolnir. The idea that we can't trust all of them didn't originate in MK, and is a lot weaker in MK than elsewhere. Minimizing that idea, which had already been brought up, is not promoting it.

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1313055711' post='2777467']
He stated he wants to make Mj's influence "nominal"

Nominal means "in name only" or "being trifling in comparison to actual value".

Not that he wants to keep NoR from becoming a power. Although that looks just as bad since NoR just signed a treaty with you guys.

And my goodness, this is a clearly laid out set of plans/expectations on what MK would like to see unfold on the planet, likely from the highest or second highest active Gov member in the entire alliance.
[/quote]
You're assuming that Nordreich, Mjolnir, etc. [i]want[/i] that power and that we seek to deny it to them.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1313067237' post='2777507']
Lets take a look at what he said



What exactly do you think nominal means?

*emphasis is mine.
[/quote]
Do you do realize that I and I'm sure every alliance/nation in their own bloc wants the others blocs to be "nominal". I want PB to be so strong no one can overtake us. That's how things work here. With that said I love DR's construction and the alliances and same goes with Mj, PF, and CnG...I supppose DH if you consider that a bloc. But everyone wants to protect their interests first.

I actually like MK more after reading that post. If he said that about PB being nominal I'd understand he was just being honest. The only weird part would be we share so many treaties with GOONS/Umbrella, but that's a side note. If Mj said he wants PB to be nominal, I could understand that. We all want to protect our alliances, but that doesn't mean we can't make good allies. And at NG, we love to fight.

[berbers]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1313054329' post='2777456']
You appear to be reading what you want to. All i've said is that nowhere in the quoted text does Ardus say he has plans to beat down our allies bloc (Mj).

We've never contradicted the fact that Ardus wants to deal with SF and elements of XX (through their links with SF, not by design). You've made the leap that we plan to restrict Mj, something he never says, and so we're refuting it.

You've also made the mistake to assume these are "plans." This is a post from an embassy without context. Everyone in FOK can see it, it's hardly a plan. [b]It's Ardus reassuring our allies that we are close to them and that we aren't going to run off with our new friends.[/b]

As long as you keep on trying to divert from what is in the OP with your assumptions, your spin and possibly your hopes, we will refute this.
[/quote]

Exactly, so PB-Mj tension results in MK siding with PB. The point everyone is trying to make is that MK views Mj as second fiddle to PB and will only use it as a means to an end. You can spout all kinds of crap about being a catalyst to build a friendship between the two blocs, but you were also a catalyst for CnG and SF to be allied, and look how that turned out for the "second fiddle."

Mj is tied for my favorite bloc with AZTEC, I don't want to see them with a MK target on their back this time next year.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1313074428' post='2777534']
[b]Nowhere did he say he thought they should have [i]less[/i] influence[/b]. Nor did he say that we'd work to isolate them. If that was the case, signing a treaty with Nordreich would be pretty silly.[/quote]

Nominal - nom·i·nal -[nom-uh-nl]
adjective
1.
being such in name only; so-called; putative: a nominal treaty; the nominal head of the country.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nominal

...seriously man either go back to school and find out the meaning of the words you are trying to spin or just stop because somehow you are losing your arguement against Vol Navy and even Alterego

also in regards to the treaty...i seem to remember MK being allied to Polar and SF...both who seem to be set in your sights currently

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1313074428' post='2777534']You don't know the context of the post. It was responding to some having a lot of apprehension about and distrust of Mjolnir. It's also the case that not every MK member and not all of our allies like every member of Mjolnir. The idea that we can't trust all of them didn't originate in MK, and is a lot weaker in MK than elsewhere. Minimizing that idea, which had already been brought up, is not promoting it.

[/quote]

pull an Ardus and make the entire embassy thread public then

after all...did he not say he was for 100% transparency?

[IYIyTh]

So in other words, they're expendable.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1313074677' post='2777536']
Exactly, so PB-Mj tension results in MK siding with PB. The point everyone is trying to make is that MK views Mj as second fiddle to PB and will only use it as a means to an end. You can spout all kinds of crap about being a catalyst to build a friendship between the two blocs, but you were also a catalyst for CnG and SF to be allied, and look how that turned out for the "second fiddle."

Mj is tied for my favorite bloc with AZTEC, I don't want to see them with a MK target on their back this time next year.
[/quote]
Our current view of SF is a reaction to numerous actions on SF's part (and especially Xiph's part), not something that we just arbitrarily created. The SF-C&G link up lasted for a long time. We never made any secret of viewing C&G first, being in and closely tied to it the entire time. Just as members of SF never made any secret of viewing SF as more important. I'm not sure how the fact that MK always prioritized C&G above any allies we had in SF is supposed to be some kind of bad mark against MK.

Right now we have an ODP with one alliance in MJ as opposed to 3 MDoAPs with PB, and PB also has a lot of links to C&G which we are also closely tied to. It would be silly of us [i]not[/i] to prioritize PB over MJ. That doesn't preclude being friendly to MJ and not trying to undermine them. If MJ starts acting like SF, there may be some tension in the future. However MJ is not doing that and it's unlikely that they will.

SF dug the hole that they are in. MK didn't dig it for them, and there are numerous other alliances that don't want anything more to do with SF than we do.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Azaghul

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1313075453' post='2777541']
So in other words, they're expendable.
[/quote]
Huge facepalm right here. I have no idea who you got to be a Tri, that few active nations in MHA, huh? Your post does explain your lack of understanding when it comes to FA though.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1313075737' post='2777544']
Huge facepalm right here. I have no idea who you got to be a Tri, that few active nations in MHA, huh? Your post does explain your lack of understanding when it comes to FA though.
[/quote]

Some alliances don't make logical reasoning an automatic disqualifier. That's how he managed to become Tri. There is some one I have in mind displaying a lack of knowledge on FA ITT, but I'll let you figure out who that is.

Edited August 11, 2011 by supercoolyellow

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1313075181' post='2777538']
Nominal - nom·i·nal -[nom-uh-nl]
adjective
1.
being such in name only; so-called; putative: a nominal treaty; the nominal head of the country.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nominal

...seriously man either go back to school and find out the meaning of the words you are trying to spin or just stop because somehow you are losing your arguement against Vol Navy and even Alterego [/quote]
Did you ever stop to think that their influence is nominal now and will be nominal regardless of what MK does?

MK is just one of many powers and while we can influence events sometimes we don't have the power to just decide who we want to be strong and influential and who we don't, and make it happen.

The idea that Mjolnir won't be the leading block after the war is just a statement of fact. MK doesn't have the power to change that.

[quote]also in regards to the treaty...i seem to remember MK being allied to Polar and SF...both who seem to be set in your sights currently[/quote]
So like nearly every other alliance, our treaties and friends shift over time. And?

[janax]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1313075453' post='2777541']
So in other words, they're expendable.
[/quote]

Every alliance not directly tied to me is "expendable". Some to a lesser degree due to them being friends of friends, but ultimately, Argent > Allies > Everyone else.

As an alliance leader, you should always be looking out for your own interests and the interests of your friends. As a war leader, you should be looking out for your coalition.

I'm all for minimizing the influence of people who aren't in PF (or allied) and maximizing our own influence. That doesn't mean everyone else has a target on their back, or that I'm going to spread a bunch of lies, half-truths and spun stories about them, simply that it is in our own best interest to make sure we are at the top.

Anyone who has led an alliance and can claim they've never run the numbers and decided they need to get new allies, or bring someone into their sphere of influence or discussed how they can win a war and who they need to target is either a liar or terrible at their job.

[EpsilonPhoenix]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1313016766' post='2776991']
Hyperion, it doesn't bother you that these moves are against your bloc?
[/quote]
After being used by the the power structure so long they seem to be content with being slowly isolated and destroyed.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1313076241' post='2777547']
Did you ever stop to think that their influence is nominal now and will be nominal regardless of what MK does?

MK is just one of many powers and while we can influence events sometimes we don't have the power to just decide who we want to be strong and influential and who we don't, and make it happen.

The idea that Mjolnir won't be the leading block after the war is just a statement of fact. MK doesn't have the power to change that.[/quote]

i think it's safe to say Mj is far from nominal. hell in the current spectrum CnG is probly the most nominal bloc currently followed by Poseidon (honestly i thought this bloc had dissolved) and SF.

MK may not have the power to decide who will be strong or lead the power spheres but they do have the power to convince their close allies to support one side over another fairly well i believe? or do you dispute that?

[quote]So like nearly every other alliance, our treaties and friends shift over time. And?
[/quote]

meh...guess i'm old fashioned where even if i dont hold a treaty with an alliance currently i still hold them up in high esteem as friends, not some pawn who can be thrown aside when needed and have (a squad that follows them to every thread and harasses them*)

and i recognize the fact that things change, hell i used to view MK in high esteem i used to view you guys with a form of respect even. But that all turned to !@#$ a bit after Bipolar funnily enough.

* edited so the mods dont get on me

Edited August 11, 2011 by Lurunin

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1313076937' post='2777554']
i think it's safe to say Mj is far from nominal. hell in the current spectrum CnG is probly the most nominal bloc currently followed by Poseidon (honestly i thought this bloc had dissolved) and SF.[/quote]
They have a decent amount of power but they are far less powerful and connected than most of the other blocks. I probably wouldn't have used the word "nominal" but it's close enough.

[quote]MK may not have the power to decide who will be strong or lead the power spheres but they do have the power to convince their close allies to support one side over another fairly well i believe? or do you dispute that? [/quote]
We have some influence over them, as they do over us, and if the balance is close enough we could be a deciding factor. However I don't believe that any of them will just do whatever we say regardless of what they or their other allies want to do.

[quote]meh...guess i'm old fashioned where even if i dont hold a treaty with an alliance currently i still hold them up in high esteem as friends, not some pawn who can be thrown aside when needed and have the troll squad sent after them.

and i recognize the fact that things change, hell i used to view MK in high esteem i used to view you guys with a form of respect even. But that all turned to !@#$ a bit after Bipolar funnily enough.
[/quote]
There is genuine friendship behind all of our treaties. Friendships can change over time, too. I'm not sure where you get the idea that we simply view our treaty partners as "pawns", that has never been the case. The fact that some of those friendships and treaties are stronger than others doesn't mean that we don't value the ones that are less strong.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1313075737' post='2777544']
Huge facepalm right here. I have no idea who you got to be a Tri, that few active nations in MHA, huh? Your post does explain your lack of understanding when it comes to FA though.
[/quote]

Is restating that MK views Mjolinor as a nice tool to be kept down in the future after they do their bidding for them not relevant to the discussion?

I'll take your endorsement as a compliment.

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1313076559' post='2777550']

I'm all for minimizing the influence of people who aren't in PF (or allied) and maximizing our own influence. That doesn't mean everyone else has a target on their back, or that I'm going to spread a bunch of lies, half-truths and spun stories about them, simply that it is in our own best interest to make sure we are at the top.

[/quote]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you.

I'm just more shocked at the claims that no one is gunning for anyone when it's simply not true.

That and the whole take on Mjolinor.

Edited August 11, 2011 by IYIyTh

[Azaghul]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1313078178' post='2777564']
Is restating that MK views Mjolinor as a nice tool to be kept down in the future after they do their bidding for them not relevant to the discussion?

I'll take your endorsement as a compliment.[/quote]
Please show me where anyone in MK has said or suggested that we view MJ only as a "nice tool".

Edited August 11, 2011 by Azaghul

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1313079017' post='2777571']
Please show me where anyone in MK has said or suggested that we view MJ only as a "nice tool".
[/quote]

Keeping someone "marginalized," after a "hard earned victory," whom likely would be in one's coalition in a post describing an ideal post-war world isn't exactly what I would envision as being endearing.

Edited August 11, 2011 by IYIyTh

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1313052929' post='2777447']
That is interesting thanks for an alliance that sent NSO post-war aid, despite sharing no direct treaty. A NATO poster daring to question MK's true intentions hardly equates to "plans to support SF", as I'm sure you are aware. <Edit: If anything, it represents that poster's justifiable concern for Mj's interests (given Berbers is one of RoK's biggest supporters).>
[/quote]

Trust me NSO is grateful for the post-war aid you sent us. How RV feels about NATO is a RV thing not an alliance thing.

Don't mistake us for being MK apologists we just hate SF more.

[Diabloz]

All i see in this thread.. some people whining about MK's view and failed attempts to stir something.

The post Ardus posted in FOK embassy looks very normal to me, and i am pretty sure many alliance leaders have similar views on how to dominate the other side..

Its a political simulator so political moves and suggestions are expected.

Its also sad to see some people trying to defend Xiph's actions in the last months.

I mean really you didn't know that MK dislikes some alliances in SF?

[Feanor Noldorin]

I fully support any and all attempts by people to play the political game and therefore attempt to isolate their opponents.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1313042784' post='2777356']
The only thing that Ardus talked about in the OP with regards to XX was their association with SF. He even expresses a wish to keep Sparta out of it because we have a favorable opinion of them. By no means did he express a desire to "take them out."
[/quote]

When I see a "threat" I remove it if possible. I remember you guys getting ready to smack Polar and then when Polar would bring it to the open everyone would go "lol nah we're not after you."

Kind of impossible to pull that kind of bull !@#$ this time at least.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1313079277' post='2777576']
Keeping someone "marginalized," after a "hard earned victory," whom likely would be in one's coalition in a post describing an ideal post-war world isn't exactly what I would envision as being endearing.
[/quote]
It's not out of line in terms of what most people expect. As I've already pointed out, the fact that Ardus thinks that they would still be a marginal power after a war doesn't mean that MK is out to marginalize them or that we would personally mind if they had power. It doesn't mean that we simply view them as a "tool". And it doesn't mean that we don't value Nordreich as an ally and a friend, even if we have closer ties to others. We are more than willing to fight for Nordreich if it comes to that, as we are for all of our allies.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Azaghul

[Ventus]

So Ardus wants to see SF get rolled because they associate with Xiph. My question is, who on Planet Bob doesn't want to see Xiph get what's coming to him? He acts like NPO back in the Hegemony days. Not like the dude ever won a war anyways, he made CSN do the work for him and his alliance.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Ventus' timestamp='1313081127' post='2777600']
So Ardus wants to see SF get rolled because they associate with Xiph. My question is, who on Planet Bob doesn't want to see Xiph get what's coming to him? He acts like NPO back in the Hegemony days. Not like the dude ever won a war anyways, he made CSN do the work for him and his alliance.
[/quote]

I think most people here would agree with you that Xiphosis is a huge dick head. Hell, I'm still hoping to see CSN get what they deserve, but hopefully people wake up after then and see that MK is picking targets like the hegemony of old is and honestly no one is safe from being picked next.

For a long time, MK and GOD were great buddies. MK will easily turn on you if you don't want to be their lapdogs like FOK, GOONS, and others. The same thing happened to Polar. I hope NoR realizes this pretty quickly and has a contingency plan post-war.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1313029004' post='2777134']
I'll echo Hyp. I don't see how this post is superbly relevant. It's a post about his personal political vision, posted in a private embassy on an ally's boards. His words in private about his own political wants do not necessarily equate to what he or his alliance will actually do.

A large number of those of you who are reading this thread have written posts of your own in private about what you'd like to see happen. The only difference between you and Ardus in this situation is that yours didn't get leaked.
[/quote]
Crymson, [i]Crymson[/i]. Please. Ardus is self-described as a "Biumvir" of MK, and is second in command (3rd if you want to count the Ghost of Archon). He is directly in control of MK's FA. Ardus' vision is clearly MK's, and this post is his sales pitch to FOK.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1313034305' post='2777213']
Ardus actually does have a pretty bad history too. He's stabbed alliances in the back before and then admitted to it later on. Xiph does exaggerate and lie a good bit to get things moving his way, but one thing he does have is extreme loyalty to his friends. [/quote]
Yeah, the "who's a bigger schemer" question is pretty silly. It's clearly a tie.

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1313040192' post='2777314']
I am still thinking the bombshell out of all this is MK's plan to keep Mj subjugated after Mj fights a war for them.
[/quote]
NoR's foreign policy is the key to Mjolnir's assured second-fiddle to Doom House and PB. Mj already has close ties to another strong bloc, Duckroll, whose independence from other blocs was a plus factor for DR and Mj (though IRON has started doing its part to erode that). As long as alliances in any bloc are hellbent on muddying the waters for their own goals over their blocs', some blocs will be resigned to nominality.

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1313041435' post='2777337']
Without just staying on the sidelines while everyone else kills each other, which is highly unlikely to happen, MJ isn't big enough or connected enough to be a leading block after the war regardless of what MK does or doesn't do. One of the bigger and more connected blocks: PB or XX, is going to be a lot stronger. That's just a reality that Ardus was acknowledging in the face of some people expressing a distrust of MJ.

And it's also worth noting that treatying NoR was a riskier move for us than it was for NoR. It wouldn't have been too difficult for us to stay neutral or wait a long time for it to chain in a SF vs. MJ scenario that everyone was talking about. That's not to say that that's the only thing we considered when we signed the treaty. We fought alongside each other against NPO and it was a very pleasant experience to work with them. We had a very good Q&A with them. We like all the NoR people that we have interacted with, and they went in for FAN (after fighting for their other allies) and helped us against NPO while Xiph, CSN, and company were holding necessary fronts from getting peace by pushing ridiculous terms on DT. And also Xiph, in his delusions of grandeur, trying to turn his ideals about forced disbandment into a reality against UPN and refusing them peace, reminiscent of what Ramirus tried to do to IRON. Nordreich was more helpful than GOD to the NPO front and Nordreich fought on the other side at first.

And don't even get me started about the BS that was the latest Nazi hunt.

This wasn't the first time something like that had happened either. He has tried to that kind of thing in previous wars. And then there was all the crap we had had to deal with per his vendetta against TOP and belief that he gets to decide who belongs on his "side" and then cancelling on GOONS because MK wouldn't obey him about not bringing TOP in on "our side". Add up all of these things and we're more than willing to wash ourselves of associating with him and playing along with his schemes to about "sides", and encourage our allies and friends to do the same.
[/quote]
This is rich even for you, Azaghul. It's a CB for Xiphosis/SF to sabre-rattle and try to position themselves better, but its a natural right and virtue for MK to do the same with posts like Ardus' and Ardus' lies (three of his main points have been shows to be false in this very thread yet you keep referring to the "many things" SF has done. It's "crap" for Xiphosis to make decisions about who he wants on his side, but it's totally fine that Ardus has written a post to a PB alliance encouraging them to start making treaty cuts to remove SF from your side and reduce Xiph's power )". . .So looking at the web, MK and I have made a call: we just can't go along with it anymore. I can't sit by and just let Xip isolate and smash one of the few alternative sources of power that remain . . .") You yourself say the same thing "we're more than willing to wash ourselves of associating with him and playing along with his schemes to about "sides", and encourage our allies and friends to do the same."
Pot, kettle, Azaghul. You know that.


[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1313076241' post='2777547']
Did you ever stop to think that their influence is nominal now and will be nominal regardless of what MK does?

MK is just one of many powers and while we can influence events sometimes we don't have the power to just decide who we want to be strong and influential and who we don't, and make it happen.

The idea that Mjolnir won't be the leading block after the war is just a statement of fact. MK doesn't have the power to change that.[/quote]
More comedy gold. Ardus' desires for Mj's future are clear, and if he thinks he can isolate SuperFriends with treaty cuts, he knows he can keep Mjolnir on the sielines where Doom House and PB want them.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1313081627' post='2777605']
I think most people here would agree with you that Xiphosis is a huge dick head. Hell, I'm still hoping to see CSN get what they deserve, but hopefully people wake up after then and see that MK is picking targets like the hegemony of old is and honestly no one is safe from being picked next.

For a long time, MK and GOD were great buddies. MK will easily turn on you if you don't want to be their lapdogs like FOK, GOONS, and others. The same thing happened to Polar. I hope NoR realizes this pretty quickly and has a contingency plan post-war.
[/quote]
MK's relationship with GOD went sour when Xiph decided that we couldn't ally TOP because according to him they weren't allowed on our "side". It's because we wouldn't be his lapdog, not the other way around. Our relationship with Polar soured after all the drama in bipolar and an Emperor coming to power that openly disliked MK. For MK's part we don't care that that much about Polar, it's our allies that do.

Try again?