Is This Legit?

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1313103210' post='2777932']
You seem to be posting honestly, if TOP hits GOD is the ODP enough to prevent VE from countering?
[/quote]
Why would we attack GOD?

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1313103000' post='2777928']
I was sardonically commenting on the fact that people suddenly beleive ODP's are worth being in the same sentence as MADP's.
[/quote]

We have seen people use an ODP while ignoring higher treaties on more than one occasion. However that being said, I think when you sign any treaty with an alliance that at this very moment is showing its open hostilty to an a MADP parter you show that MADP is garbage and is not likely long of this world. You have to read between the lines.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1313083362' post='2777625']
Oh okay, so we're doing the MK=old NPO thing again are we? Sorry to shatter your delusions, but the GOONS-MK relationship is not one of servitude, and I challenge you to provide a single shred of evidence that we are lapdogs.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]SirWilliam is secretly running GOONS on Archon's behalf. Are you convinced yet?[/color]

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Vladimir Nikanor' timestamp='1313082678' post='2777616']
We plan for things; this being one of them. Unfortunately
[/quote]

That's good to hear.

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1313083527' post='2777630']
It's post like these that makes me think that you have finally gone !@#$% insane, old friend.
[/quote]

I'm sorry to hear that. I wish you guys and ODN would quit hanging on to MK simply because of the past. Both of you are good guys and need to get away from trash like that.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1313083362' post='2777625']
Oh okay, so we're doing the MK=old NPO thing again are we? Sorry to shatter your delusions, but the GOONS-MK relationship is not one of servitude, and I challenge you to provide a single shred of evidence that we are lapdogs.
[/quote]

I told everyone a few days ago MK wanted the GOONS-CSN treaty gone so GOONS would gladly oblige. I challenge you to prove you have ever done anything contrary to MK's will. Would you like to try?

Edited August 11, 2011 by Omniscient1

[Diabloz]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1313089879' post='2777738']
Ok, so , you say that MK isn't trying to isolate SF then when I post a date when they supposedly started doing it, you say they started earlier.
[/quote]

The SF hatred isnt a thing which over night happened, it has been an ongoing thing and it just accumulated. We now have a pyramid of hatred and we have many alliance hate them for their actions. For example i think i can speak for many alliance when i say R&R isn't as much hated as the other 3 alliances within SF, Xiphosis has created this hatred himself.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1313105264' post='2777967']
I told everyone a few days ago MK wanted the GOONS-CSN treaty gone so GOONS would gladly oblige. I challenge you to prove you have ever done anything contrary to MK's will. Would you like to try?
[/quote]
Allies share interests and opinions.

[i]Scandalous.[/i]

[Confusion]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1313103210' post='2777932']
You seem to be posting honestly, if TOP hits GOD is the ODP enough to prevent VE from countering?
[/quote]

I don't see TOP putting VE in such a predicament.


Confusion.

[Autocrat]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1313103166' post='2777931']
You're implying that this bothers us. I think many of us in Mjolnir are quite content with not driving politics, especially considering the fact that we don't really have the size to back up such a doctrine.

<more stuff>

So, if Ardus really is this evil puppeteer who wants to make our influence nominal, he'll have plenty of help from me.
[/quote]

There seem to be a few problems with this defense of Ardus' post.

First of all, the use of the word 'nominal' is important. That's not just saying that their power will be small, or reduced- it suggests that they will have power in name, but not in action. Giving you false power does suggest a good bit of "evil puppeteering" to make you feel safe in your influence but really have you at the mercy of PB/CnG/DH. This might not be problematic, but this little quote:

[quote]...not without recruiting people far worse than Mjolnir and far more willing to cut our throats...[/quote]

suggests that this might be an issue in the future, as it seems that MK at the very least both dislikes and distrusts you to some degree.

And finally, if Mj is really a tiny bloc with no aspirations of power and no way of getting it, why even include it in the post? What need is there to tell people that you'll remain powerless, if it's not a goal that they would work toward?

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1313105783' post='2777981']
Allies share interests and opinions.

[i]Scandalous.[/i]
[/quote]

Funny how those interests were shared with GOONS other allies. Like say.....CSN.

[Drai]

[quote name='Autocrat' timestamp='1313106181' post='2777996']
There seem to be a few problems with this defense of Ardus' post.

First of all, the use of the word 'nominal' is important. That's not just saying that their power will be small, or reduced- it suggests that they will have power in name, but not in action. Giving you false power does suggest a good bit of "evil puppeteering" to make you feel safe in your influence but really have you at the mercy of PB/CnG/DH. This might not be problematic, but this little quote:



suggests that this might be an issue in the future, as it seems that MK at the very least both dislikes and distrusts you to some degree.

And finally, if Mj is really a tiny bloc with no aspirations of power and no way of getting it, why even include it in the post? What need is there to tell people that you'll remain powerless, if it's not a goal that they would work toward?
[/quote]
The fact that people are putting the word nominal under a microscope after he admitted the sentence was hardly considered as he wrote the whole post just shows you're looking to make an argument out of whatever you can find. So no, it's not important. It's the people trying to paint him in a bad light who are saying it is.

And if you'd read this thread you'd know it was a response to a question in our ally's embassy that asked not only what Ardus' plans were, but how his plans would involve MJ seeing as there was a lack of trust between their alliance and the bloc. Maybe that's why it was in the post!

Edited August 11, 2011 by Drai

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1313106681' post='2778017']
The fact that people are putting the word nominal under a microscope after he admitted the sentence was hardly considered as he wrote the whole post just shows you're looking to make an argument out of whatever you can find. So no, it's not important. It's the people trying to paint him in a bad light who are saying it is.[/quote]

It really sounds like the post was thought out. People typically write WOTs when they're thinking things through, not shooting off the cuff. Unless you are claiming Ardus suffers from ET syndrom.

[quote]And if you'd read this thread you'd know it was a response to a question in our ally's embassy that asked not only what Ardus' plans were, but how his plans would involve MJ seeing as there was a lack of trust between their alliance and the bloc. Maybe that's why it was in the post!
[/quote]

That an NG member asked about this, and especially asked specifically about mj, which he then specifically answered, is not helping your case.

Edited August 11, 2011 by supercoolyellow

[Autocrat]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1313106681' post='2778017']
The fact that people are putting the word nominal under a microscope after he admitted the sentence was hardly considered as he wrote the whole post just shows you're looking to make an argument out of whatever you can find. So no, it's not important. It's the people trying to paint him in a bad light who are saying it is.

And if you'd read this thread you'd know it was a response to a question in our ally's embassy that asked not only what Ardus' plans were, but how his plans would involve MJ seeing as there was a lack of trust between their alliance and the bloc. Maybe that's why it was in the post!
[/quote]

I did in fact read the thread, thanks. Forgive me, but this is a [OOC]text-based game[/OOC], and it would seem to me that as such, the words you use matter. I have absolutely no desire to smear MK, I'm simply stating my opinion on why the sentence is important.

And again, it's not just the "nominal" word, it's that coupled with the mistrust and dislike of Mj shown in the post.

[Bob Janova]

I'm sorry but you can't write 'nominal influence' out of the script. I agree that putting it under a microscope is going too far, but the tone of the whole post is clear: Ardus wants Mjolnir to be a weak bloc, even after SF is eliminated. And Ardus is good with words, especially when crafting a mission statement post like this one – he won't have just used the wrong word.

We've got some Mjolnir posters in here playing the 'nice alliance' card, but really, if you don't want influence, why are you even playing the political game in the first place? Of course you want influence, even if it's just enough sway in world affairs to keep your bloc safe and out of the target sights of others (that's what we tried to do in Citadel and I expect a similar approach in PF).

[Drai]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1313106908' post='2778021']
It really sounds like the post was thought out. People typically write WOTs when they're thinking things through, not shooting off the cuff. Unless you are claiming Ardus suffers from ET syndrom.



That an NG member asked about this, and especially asked specifically about mj, which he then specifically mentioned, is not helping your case.
[/quote]
"If I made a mistake it was doing so in the middle of the night..."

I won't repeat what I said in my last post but couple that with the above quote and you can hardly say he was completly focused on that specific sentence at the time.

It wasn't an NG member, I don't know where you're getting that from. Not being our ally might be the first place to realize that's incorrect. You'll notice however that he doesn't build off that sentence in the rest of the post. It was not a key point in any of his plans, but rather just touching on the bloc to give an honest opinion about how MJ is related to his plans. He answered the question with the level of detail required for a satisfactory answer and moved on to the main point about what his vision was.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Drai

[Ardus]

[quote name='Autocrat' timestamp='1313106181' post='2777996']
There seem to be a few problems with this defense of Ardus' post.

First of all, the use of the word 'nominal' is important. That's not just saying that their power will be small, or reduced- it suggests that they will have power in name, but not in action. Giving you false power does suggest a good bit of "evil puppeteering" to make you feel safe in your influence but really have you at the mercy of PB/CnG/DH.[/quote]

Evil puppeteer? Wow. I wish I had that kind of power. I ought to dig up that "Master of Puppets" avatar from way back when. Who used it again? Was it Bilrow?

Anyway, you're trying really hard to pick on that word. I tend to use it interchangeably with "minimal" or "small", I already clarified what I meant to Mjolnir. It was never intended as a threat or insult, but rather cold analysis: I don't see them exerting an inordinate degree of influence over people, nor do I see them as a threat (as certain individuals wanted us to believe). I also believe them when they say "we really just want to keep to ourselves." They formed the bloc on lines of clear friendship and had targets on their backs for various reasons. It wasn't a particularly advantageous strategic move, but clearly one of camaraderie.

[quote]suggests that this might be an issue in the future, as it seems that MK at the very least both dislikes and distrusts you to some degree.[/quote]

There are some folks in Mjolnir I'm still warming to, but on the whole I like the bloc. There are plenty of other folks I know who still have reservations toward them and I (as well as the rest of MK) have been spending considerable time and effort arguing in favor of MJ. If I had malevolent designs on our viking friends, I don't think I'd have spent my time since their formation working to get my allies to give them a chance.

[quote]And finally, if Mj is really a tiny bloc with no aspirations of power and no way of getting it, why even include it in the post? What need is there to tell people that you'll remain powerless, if it's not a goal that they would work toward?[/quote]

Mjolnir formed under a cloud of suspicion derived from assertions that proved inaccurate. Though it's plenty well known among active government types that MJ harbors no ill intent for Pandora's Box, there are some less informed folks that still worry about them. I included the line as a passing thought to say "they're not a threat and they won't be."

[Ardus]

[quote name='Autocrat' timestamp='1313106987' post='2778023']
I did in fact read the thread, thanks. Forgive me, but this is a [OOC]text-based game[/OOC], and it would seem to me that as such, the words you use matter. I have absolutely no desire to smear MK, I'm simply stating my opinion on why the sentence is important.

And again, it's not just the "nominal" word, it's that coupled with the mistrust and dislike of Mj shown in the post.
[/quote]
Between CN, work, and study, I type thousands upon thousands of words each day. I'm bound to make mistakes in word choice.

[berbers]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1313107658' post='2778039']
Between CN, work, and study, I type thousands upon thousands of words each day. I'm bound to make mistakes in word choice.
[/quote]


That's exactly the sort of thing someone would say to minimize the impact of a leaked document.

[Ardus]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1313108132' post='2778049']
That's exactly the sort of thing someone would say to minimize the impact of a leaked document.


[/quote]
I'm flattered that you think I'm flawless in execution.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1313107658' post='2778039']
Between CN, work, and study, I type thousands upon thousands of words each day. I'm bound to make mistakes in word choice.
[/quote]

Oh never mind MJ, Ardus is just tired and gets cranky when he's tired. He's not out to make your influence marginal or anything it was a bad choice of words said in anger.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1313108222' post='2778050']
I'm flattered that you think I'm flawless in execution.
[/quote]

Just don't let it happen again, OKAY. You're supposed to be our master, now act like it.

[Aeros]

The idea that Mjolnir is somehow bent on world domination is borderline laughable. Obviously, our bloc has some of the most aggressive and militarily competent alliances in them, but the military competency has come at the price of sustaining heavy losses over the years compared to some other alliances that have managed to avoid being directly involved in the slaughter.

[Diabloz]

Some people are trying way too hard in this thread.

[Autocrat]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1313107590' post='2778037']
Evil puppeteer? Wow. I wish I had that kind of power. I ought to dig up that "Master of Puppets" avatar from way back when. Who used it again? Was it Bilrow?

Anyway, you're trying really hard to pick on that word. I tend to use it interchangeably with "minimal" or "small", I already clarified what I meant to Mjolnir. It was never intended as a threat or insult, but rather cold analysis: I don't see them exerting an inordinate degree of influence over people, nor do I see them as a threat (as certain individuals wanted us to believe). I also believe them when they say "we really just want to keep to ourselves." They formed the bloc on lines of clear friendship and had targets on their backs for various reasons. It wasn't a particularly advantageous strategic move, but clearly one of camaraderie.



There are some folks in Mjolnir I'm still warming to, but on the whole I like the bloc. There are plenty of other folks I know who still have reservations toward them and I (as well as the rest of MK) have been spending considerable time and effort arguing in favor of MJ. If I had malevolent designs on our viking friends, I don't think I'd have spent my time since their formation working to get my allies to give them a chance.
[/quote]

Evil puppeteer was a joke, a reference to the quote in my post.

Perhaps too much emphasis was placed on the analysis of the word, I'll concede- it only really has importance when coupled with your later comments on how SF is much "more likely" to cut your throat. I don't know you at all, so it's entirely possible that what you said about Mj in your most recent reply is true- but in what you said behind closed doors, your view certainly seems to be more negative.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1313108330' post='2778051']
Oh never mind MJ, Ardus is just tired and gets cranky when he's tired. He's not out to make your influence marginal or anything it was a bad choice of words said in anger.
[/quote]
I wasn't angry at the time, though I was tired. I do get less self-critical when I'm exhausted.

Now hungry. I do get angry when I haven't eaten in a while. I try to avoid sensitive work just before lunch and dinner.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1313108874' post='2778070']
though I was tired. I do get less self-critical when I'm exhausted.
[/quote]

So you just let yourself talk un-inhibited when you're tired like you were in the leaked post. That's pretty dangerous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwT9ltDBG14 For you