Just an itsy bitsy question

[Sardonic]

[quote name='not adolf hitler' timestamp='1311626491' post='2763567']
0114:07:03 (Notadolfhitler[IRON]) NO
0114:07:09 (Notadolfhitler[IRON]) oh hi!
0114:07:13 (Notadolfhitler[IRON]) you are the person we are attacking
0114:07:14 (Notadolfhitler[IRON]) whats up
[/quote]
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has conversations that begin like this.

[onbekende]

You promised me ZI, you only did 1 spy attack

Good thing you got back into my range with you rebuying infra to stock up on nukes to attack that Valhalla nation after we left you alone. Can I get invite?

[Lord Levistus]

[quote]19:59:54 [Levistus] oh, he's goingto rage on you, and tell you how evil we are because Tronix and jesper raided him 6 weeks ago
20:00:17 (MultiplyingMongoose{IRON}) i would rage if jesper raided me too
20:00:48 (MultiplyingMongoose{IRON}) yea
20:00:53 (MultiplyingMongoose{IRON}) if onbekende declares itll be tomorrow[/quote]

(that's NAH, btw, in one of his numerous random name changes, and sorry for the poor typing)


As you can see, i was never keeping the reason for why King Sin went rogue hidden. I was always upfront about it.

[Bob]

[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311625579' post='2763556']\
Valhalla lied to its allies. People talk about facts of our case a lot in this thread and this is one of them. They deceived their allies in a most dishonorable way and they have never denied it, ever.
[/quote]
No. one. lied. to. their. allies.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1311609345' post='2763430']
Joking aside,

Oh for christssakes, it's a tech raid target turned nuclear rogue, get over it. The fact of the matter is that unaligned are not sovereign, individual nations are not (typically) sovereign. They are not even so much as permitted to keep their tech. It is only by forming and alliances that we gain sovereignty. The individual nation is essentially nothing. Consequentially, the unaligned have no rights, and any action against them by an aligned party is justified.

Valhalla, though not my favorite alliance, have done nothing wrong. They used the tools at their disposal to deal with an unaligned nonperson who was asking for trouble.
[/quote]

I know we disagree as often as not, but I have always liked you.

And I do like what you do here, though I dont agree with you. What I like is you have the balls to say what you mean up front instead of whining about every corner-case you can imagine and trying to avoid the crux of the issue.

This is the Internationalist position in a nutshell. "Only membership in a large gang means anything, and anyone who isnt one is effectively subhuman, a designated victim class." It is the logical consequence of believing that might makes right, plus a belief that in CN game mechanics a large numerical advantage trumps everything else. This particular nation is currently proving that, at least in some cases, that belief is incorrect. He must be causing them a good deal of pain to generate the response he has gotten, which means that their "raid" was an expensive mistake.

You even leave room for this in your own statement, with the parenthetical "typically" you leave room for an occasional exception exception. Yet logically it seems incredible to me that his response to being "raided" could be uncommon or exceptional. What kind of slugs are your "typical" targets? 23 day inactives? You do realise you cant gain *anything* after day 13 of inactivity right?

[RePePe]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1311628409' post='2763585']He must be causing them a good deal of pain to generate the response he has gotten, which means that their "raid" was an expensive mistake.[/quote]

Stopped reading here due to the inaccuracy of your statement. Utilizing all tools that you can does not mean you are taking heavy losses, it simply is a means to make the small losses even smaller.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1311618047' post='2763512']
It is entirely irrelevant what an individual nation can do. It is a rare individual nation who is able to change the course of history while acting alone with no alliance backing. The history of CN is a history of the interactions of Alliances of government members, of the aligned. The unaligned are not party to that.
[/quote]

That's a little bit better than the vague guidelines you set before, but I don't agree with your point of the relevance of an alliance. History in CN has been written by a very, very small number of people who actually yield power, and those who contest them. Often, these people act independently to write history. Take into consideration De Profundis, The Tattler, This Week in Pacifica, Lennox's spy actions, and ivanelterrible (the obvious example, clearly). Often without knowledge or consent of the "aligned" individual players have written the history books of CN; alliance strength is simply a tool individuals can use as a measure of power.

[Heft]

You were raided weeks (months?) ago and are still at war through your own actions and choice. I'm not a fan of wanton tech raiding or whining about retaliation or anything but it seems like this has gone a bit beyond self-defense.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1311628409' post='2763585']
I know we disagree as often as not, but I have always liked you.
[/quote]
Why thank you.
[quote]
And I do like what you do here, though I dont agree with you. What I like is you have the balls to say what you mean up front instead of whining about every corner-case you can imagine and trying to avoid the crux of the issue.

This is the Internationalist position in a nutshell. "Only membership in a large gang means anything, and anyone who isnt one is effectively subhuman, a designated victim class."
[/quote]
Interesting choice of the word "gang". But yes, essentially unaligned are not people, they are merely the motor oil by which to keep the alliance machine interested in the game and running.
[quote]
It is the logical consequence of believing that might makes right, plus a belief that in CN game mechanics a large numerical advantage trumps everything else. This particular nation is currently proving that, at least in some cases, that belief is incorrect. He must be causing them a good deal of pain to generate the response he has gotten, which means that their "raid" was an expensive mistake.
[/quote]
I see what you're getting at, but your statement and conclusion don't add up. Just because Valhalla is responding with maximum available force (allies, sanctions and all) does not reflect on the amount of damage being caused by the rogue. When a rogue attacks GOONS for example, he is added to the EoG list and attacked, usually sanctioned if nuclear. Damage doesn't come into it, it's just part of the rogue handling process.
[quote]
You even leave room for this in your own statement, with the parenthetical "typically" you leave room for an occasional exception exception. Yet logically it seems incredible to me that his response to being "raided" could be uncommon or exceptional. What kind of slugs are your "typical" targets? 23 day inactives? You do realise you cant gain *anything* after day 13 of inactivity right?
[/quote]
I wouldn't know, I don't tech raid, I have people to do that for me.

His response is amusing though, I'll give you that much, though it's much more entertaining if it's an entire AA, such as in the RLMMO incident.

[MaGneT]

Again, if you guys continue fighting, nothing gets accomplished. Sin, you aren't changing anyone's opinions. Valhalla, you already know nothing productive is coming out of this. Bob and I have already offered to try to broker some sort of an agreement between you. I'm sure it's doable.
Or Valhalla can just ride Sin into bill lock, for however long it may take. I wouldn't like to see that and something tells me neither would they.

Also, I think this belongs in World Affairs?

[chefjoe]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1311633120' post='2763615']
Again, if you guys continue fighting, nothing gets accomplished. Sin, you aren't changing anyone's opinions. [b]Valhalla, you already know nothing productive is coming out of this. Bob and I have already offered to try to broker some sort of an agreement between you. I'm sure it's doable.[/b]Or Valhalla can just ride Sin into bill lock, for however long it may take. I wouldn't like to see that and something tells me neither would they.

Also, I think this belongs in World Affairs?
[/quote]

We have offered him peace on many occasions, he refuses it outright and keeps offering his rediculous term of changing our charter. He obviously doesnt know me or Valhalla very well as, (Listen here closely King Sin) THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN...ever.

So Sin can continue his little war, its his own choice, but we shall use every means at our disposal to prevent as much damage as possible to the(yes im saying it) [i]innocent[/i] nations of Valhalla that Sin continues to attack [b]by his own choice [/b]at this point. It really has raised activity levels down in that nation range so although mildly annoying it certainly isnt close to anything dire or even threatening to us as a whole. Sin could have duked it out with tronix and jesper for as long as he desired without drawing flak from the AA as a whole or our allies, once he took the fight to others in the AA whom were bystanders he crossed a line that demands action(just as tronix and jesper did when they raided).

Right now Sin the offer of white peace and everyone walks away is still on the table, at some point we shall just get used to the fact of you being around and adopt you as a training/first nuke medal sparring partner for our noobs at which point we may not be so generous as we would miss you....so think it over because as you can see this topic went nowhere, kinda like your vendetta.

[MaGneT]

CJ, you guys are being immensely reasonable about this. There were days where people would be EZI'd over something less than this. I hope you didn't think I was slighting you, I just figured that Sin might prefer a third party in between y'all.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1311635201' post='2763633']
CJ, you guys are being immensely reasonable about this. There were days where people would be EZI'd over something less than this. I hope you didn't think I was slighting you, I just figured that Sin might prefer a third party in between y'all.
[/quote]

No offense taken magnet, and we would never turn down help in getting issues resolved. Its whats friends are for

[Thrash]

All I got out of this is "crux" is a strong contender to "ad hominem."

Edited July 26, 2011 by Thrash

[ChairmanHal]

Let's run this through the b.s. filter...

[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311625579' post='2763556']
It is true I would not have any problem fighting on with being sanctioned on every team in the game. I believe I am now with the exception of red, because Schatt didn't understand I had gone full moonbat. But what those that are opposed to what my position seem to still not understand is that it is not about me and my nation. I am from the Andromeda Galaxy and I have a Wookie disguised as a beagle for a pet. I can't even manage to recognize that it is acceptable to use sanctions against a nation that refuses all efforts at a reasonable peace for all concerned. If reasonable peace for all is deemed right just now it will be deemed just forever, and that goes against my agenda.

Valhalla didn't lie to its allies. People talk about facts of our case a lot in this thread and this is one of them. I have deceived a few bystanders and the usual moralists in a most dishonorable way. Valhalla has never denied its part in this affair, ever.

What Valhalla has done here is decided that I am a nuclear rogue and told several if not all of the senate holding alliances that. Those alliances were given the opportunity to decide for themselves based on the facts of the situation and they agreed. There are probably a lot of actual people that deserve sanctions and this kind of interaction between alliances requesting sanctions is most likely common. I do not really follow the sanctions list closely. I think that Valhalla knows this and decided to request the sanctions giving complete disclosure because they do thinks the right way. Perhaps I could be more vigilant in my use of tinfoil the future. Valhalla spies are reading my thoughts in my sleep, I know it.

The biggest reason people join the alliance and the biggest reason alliances say to join them is security. Security from the unlawful barbaric realm of the nonaligned. Valhalla provides for their members. A member of Valhalla has all ready said that I have used nuclear weapons again nations that are defenseless against nuclear attack, further reinforcing the fact that I am a nuke rogue and claim to have caused an already inactive Valhalla nation to deleted as act of frustration at my inability to cause any perceivable damage against Valhalla. It is getting increasingly hard to recognize my own hands when I type. Must buy more tinfoil to protect myself from Valhalla mind control rays. But I still invite them to come forward and address the points I have made here.

I would just like to say this about IRON and the others. IRON had attacked me with a few nations about a month ago and began using Nuclear Weapons almost immediately because they don't fight fair and allow me to nuke them first. I have not retaliated in any way because assuming the fetal position seemed like the best strategy. I do not recognize a state of war between myself and IRON, doodle, doodle, dee, wubba, wubba, wubba. IRON and to a lesser extent the other alliances are also victims in this case not me. Valhalla has strengthened their relationships with all these alliances during this period because their mind control ray turned them into puppets.

The true impotence and dishonor of my nation has now been shown for all to see.
[/quote]

Fixed that for you. You've made me find Sardonic articulate, intelligent, and made it impossible for me to argue with GOONS now for weeks. You should be embarrassed and feel bad. Go outside and think about what you've done.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1311602143' post='2763377']
Tech raiding a guy with nukes is just asking for trouble.
[/quote]
Ive raided countless guys with nukes and the vast majority peaced out without even a whimper

[Teddyyo]

Here we go.
Valhalla - wants it to be considered a tech raid gone bad, but then the raided nation continued attacking
King sin - he was declared war on by the alliance of Valhalla, and so he's waging war as an 'army of one'.

To me, an 'army of one' is still an army, not a bandit. He's not hitting-and-running - sure, he's hitting SDI-less nations, but that's simple strategy - he's waging an all-out, continuing war against Valhalla. The event that set off the war was a tech raid. While Valhalla wants it considered as two seperate conflicts (tech raid THEN LATER nations attacked), King sin clearly sees it as the same fluid conflagration (tech raid CAUSED nations attacked).

Looking at the cases of each side, I must agree with King sin. Despite Valhalla starting it with a tech raid, the raided nation has responded as a sovereign entity - like an alliance - and replied to the attack upon it as a threat to its sovereignty, and looks to end that threat.

The attacks upon Valhalla were clearly a result of the tech raid, therefore they should be considered as being in the same conflict. Valhalla's position that, the fact Valhalla classified the attack as a tech raid means further response should be considered unwarranted, and, therefore, silently implying it is unconnected, is meager at best at a glance, and ludicrous under even just a little scrutinizing.

There is a "Declare War" button in Cyber Nations. There is no "Tech Raid" button. The interpretation of that declaration of war is made by the one warred, and therefore, what qualifies as a warranted response is made by the warred entity. If they do not like your idea of limited war and tech raiding, well, that's too bad. You warred a sovereign entity. The entity has chosen a response of massive retaliation rather than cooperation.

It boils down to this: Does the response of an entity to continue a conflict, rather than concede after the initial fight, classify it as a 'rogue'?

In this question, to me, the clear answer is 'no', and therefore, King sin should be treated as a legitimate warring entity, and, in my opinion, unless a precedent to use sanctions as a tool for war wants to be set, those sanctions should be lifted.

Tedd.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Teddyyo

[Bob]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1311651928' post='2763839']

There is a "Declare War" button in Cyber Nations. There is no "Tech Raid" button. The interpretation of that declaration of war is made by the one warred, and therefore, what qualifies as a warranted response is made by the warred entity. If they do not like your idea of limited war and tech raiding, well, that's too bad. You warred a sovereign entity. The entity has chosen a response of massive retaliation rather than cooperation.
[/quote]
Tech raids are an accepted part of the game. Deal with it.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Valhalla more likely than not sees this is as a much welcome training exercise for its lower middle order handling busted down WRC nukers. Lots of fun and casualties to be harvested here. It seems to be a win-win situation for both the parties directy involved, Sin gets to stick it to the man and play the griefer, be the thorn in the side or the worm in the apple, and Valhalla gets to boost the only stat that seems to matter to them, casualties.

The only losers in this exchange are the owf denizens.

[philp110]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1311632572' post='2763611']

His response is amusing though, I'll give you that much, though it's much more entertaining if it's an entire AA, such as in the RLMMO incident.
[/quote]

Oh the RLMMO incident! I remember starting that war when I was part of Kronos, along with Nippy and I believe it was Majik from Kronos as well. Talk about a raid gone great! I believe the nukes I received from that one put me up over 2M casualties. Ah, the good old days!

[foxfire99]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1311656748' post='2763920']

The only losers in this exchange are the owf denizens.
[/quote]

Only if you view 8 pages and counting of drama as a defeat.

[President S O]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311654625' post='2763876']
Tech raids are an accepted part of the game. Deal with it.
[/quote]

This.

Getting a protector/joining an alliance are accepted parts of preventing raids.

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311654625' post='2763876']
Tech raids are an accepted part of the game. Deal with it.
[/quote]
I'm saying that retribution by the raided in the form of [i]continuing[/i] what started as a tech raid doesn't make him a rogue. He made the choice to reply to the tech raid with all-out war. Valhalla therefore warred him first, so why why should he be considered a rogue?

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1311683621' post='2764080']
I'm saying that retribution by the raided in the form of [i]continuing[/i] what started as a tech raid doesn't make him a rogue. He made the choice to reply to the tech raid with all-out war. Valhalla therefore warred him first, so why why should he be considered a rogue?
[/quote]

Consider him to be whatever you want but the bottom line is he will be fought using all tools and means at the alliances disposal. So rogue, no rogue, blah blah blah....meaningLESS.

Zero teching Sin in a few weeks?

MeaningFULL.

Edited July 26, 2011 by chefjoe

[Teddyyo]

All right. To me, sanctions are placed on rogues and such, but if it is considered by you guys to be a war tactic, then that's that. If it's used against you when you fight a war, then, don't complain.