Just an itsy bitsy question

[Sin]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311575286' post='2763269']
An alliance declaration of war, decided by the leader of the alliance. Chefjoe is the only person in the alliance capable of declaring a war against an alliance (or a single nation, for that matter), while the marshal of war is capable of authorizing tech raids. One is war until peace is reached between alliances, while the other is peace between nations. You stretched out and instead of keeping at TRON IX and Jesper, made it into a war against their alliance. You were capable of keeping it between you three, so why didn't you if you didn't want to attack their alliance?
[/quote]
Their charter does say "The Regent is responsible for all facets of the alliance..." which would obviously include approving wars however it also explicitly says the Marshal can also do this. It says it in Article 1 Section 2 B which I have all ready said earlier and it can also be seen in Article 2 Section 2.1 C where it says "[t]he Marshal is responsible for all matters regarding military action." Given that is says all and not some I believe it means including declaring war.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Charter_of_Valhalla

[Sin]

I think I should point out that there were only two original attackers. A third came in support of the first two after I had begun to fight back. Again showing it being an attack by the alliance.

[Bob]

[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311575990' post='2763271']
Their charter does say "The Regent is responsible for all facets of the alliance..." which would obviously include approving wars however it also explicitly says the Marshal can also do this. It says it in Article 1 Section 2 B which I have all ready said earlier and it can also be seen in Article 2 Section 2.1 C where it says "[t]he Marshal is responsible for all matters regarding military action." Given that is says all and not some I believe it means including declaring war.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Charter_of_Valhalla
[/quote]
It does not. Chefjoe alone has the power to declare war, not the Marshal. The Marshal can approve tech raids though, obviously.

Source: Valhalla member

also off to bed

Edited July 25, 2011 by Penlugue Solaris

[Velocity111]

As a big fan of tech (land) raiding, I must say that I fully support King Sin in his endeavor. Getting tech raided sucks. Get yer revenge boy.

I do hope you put up a good a fight as thedestro did.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Velocity111

[TRON IX]

[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311576120' post='2763272']
Again showing it being an attack by the alliance.
[/quote]

As Penlugue has pointed out it is NOT a war by Valhalla's definition. You should also know that waivers are signed by those who tech raid stating that Valhalla will not support them for the raid. (we were on our own)

Thus it's not the Alliance declaring. It was Jesper and I. You made it an alliance war when you attacked someone in Valhalla in retaliation later.


If you are going to quote our system(charter and raid guidelines), then our system clearly says that you are wrong. It's OUR definitions of OUR system. Not yours.

Valhalla's definition of the situation is that you are a rogue. You have been given the option time and time again to peace at any time. However you do not seek peace.

Good Riddance.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1311569779' post='2763211']I don't recall us not taking responsibility for it.

As for not making use of our allies...at this point why would we fight with one arm tied behind our back? We deserved to be punished?
[/quote]
My apologies, I meant [b]sole[/b] responsibility. As is evidenced by the rest of the context in my former statement.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

So let me get this straight, you were sitting in this bar, and some Valhallan dude walked upto you and punched you out, you punched back, you scrapped, both got bloody noses, both went home.

Then the week after that, you go to the bar, and see the dude again, only this time you punch out his buddy, right? Then they sort of get together and beat the snot out of you and invite their good neighbours from IRON to partake in the festivities. Then they warn everyone not to come near you.

It is the last bit that you are opposed to, since it sets a bad precedent? Hello?? This is no precedent, it is how things have been for years now. it is all part of the process of escalation, you escalated by punching the friend of the dude that punched you, they escalated, and this sanction thing is merely another tool available for them to use, escalation, yes.

Since you evidently do not care about how beat up you get, you really should not mind if they keep others from giving you marble and wine.

[Captain Flinders]

I'm really not seeing where the drama comes from in all of this. You were raided. Big deal. It happens all the time. Some are morally opposed to it, and others aren't. That's just the way it goes. You then used all the power at your disposal to strike back at Valhalla. They are now using all the power at their disposal to strike back at you. The problem is, Valhalla is an entire alliance with allies and connections. You chose to retaliate against an entire alliance. You now have to pay the consequences of that choice. Stop being such a baby.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1311586245' post='2763310']
I'm really not seeing where the drama comes from in all of this. You were raided. Big deal. It happens all the time. Some are morally opposed to it, and others aren't. That's just the way it goes. You then used all the power at your disposal to strike back at Valhalla. They are now using all the power at their disposal to strike back at you. The problem is, Valhalla is an entire alliance with allies and connections. You chose to retaliate against an entire alliance. You now have to pay the consequences of that choice. Stop being such a baby.
[/quote]
Actually, he sat and waited for someone to raid him so he can go on nuclear frenzy. Val has given him a way out, Val's ally has given him a way out. He does not wants peace, nor does he wants $$. Yet, he's the one crying too.

Edited July 25, 2011 by shahenshah

[foxfire99]

And this is why it is unwise to tech raid. Some people get a bit vindictive when you attack them without provocation. At this point, how much more have you lost than the tech and land gained? This guy is doing you guys a favor by trying to make you give it up.

Sanctions for this are a bit of a low blow, especially considering how easy it is to fight a single nation four v. one. Still, there isn't really anything you can do about it. I'd recommend finding an alliance to negotiate on you behalf, I see DT has offered. Taking them up on that is your best move in the long run.

If, on the other hand, you are attached to the blaze of glory strategy, best of luck with that too.

[Avakael]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311564792' post='2763124']
You attack people beyond whoever attacked you, and they interpreted that as you going rogue.

I offer you this: join DT, and I'll fix your problems. $%&@, if you want to stop attacking them, I'll fix it for you.
[/quote]

Curious- why would he want to join an ally of the alliance making an enemy of themselves to him, whether it was actually to fix the issue or not?

Valhalla and King Sin: Don't really know or care about who's in the right. I merely suggest you enjoy your opportunity to raise the GRL while it lasts

[Sarmatian Empire]

I'm pretty sure traditional vikings burned everything to the ground or something, be happy Valhalla has been going easy on you

[shahenshah]

[quote name='foxfire99' timestamp='1311587731' post='2763318']
And this is why it is unwise to tech raid. Some people get a bit vindictive when you attack them without provocation. At this point, how much more have you lost than the tech and land gained? [/quote]
VAL isnt the one making any fuss. They're quite content with the situation. Val's faced months of nuclear wars, comparatively, he's nothing. I also think all tech raiding alliances are well aware of the risks associated with it.

[quote]
Sanctions for this are a bit of a low blow [/quote]
I feel that's a matter of opinion honestly. IMO, No they arent a low blow. Its a well built up nation with good wonders and big warchest and low costs, he can keep firing nukes in ranges where there generally are no nukes. He has been offered way out. He does not wants peace, he does not wants $$$, instead he wants to change Valhalla's charter through fighting. He has taken the route to go nuclear rogue, sanctions are kosher.


[quote]
i'd recommend finding an alliance to negotiate on you behalf, I see DT has offered. Taking them up on that is your best move in the long run.
[/quote]
I agree. I hope he realizes, the longer this goes on, the weaker his position will get.

Edited July 25, 2011 by shahenshah

[Kalasin]

If you'd played this right, King Sin, you could have got quite widespread support and made Valhalla look bad. I even considered sending you some aid just to stir things up. Unfortunately you're burning your PR further with every move you make. I wish you a lot of fun with your war, though. Even though I actually secretly like Valhalla for some reason (probably to do with Hal, he's a champ.)

[Bob]

[quote name='Avakael' timestamp='1311587740' post='2763319']
Curious- why would he want to join an ally of the alliance making an enemy of themselves to him, whether it was actually to fix the issue or not?
[/quote]
The point was more the whole "I'll help you find peace regardless". You don't seem to understand that people raided often times join the alliance raiding them: I'd have it happen, and my alliance was founded and we found our protector because they raided us. Clearly that is not the situation here, but that's why I made the offer at the beginning.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Penlugue Solaris

[the rebel]

So lets get this straight King Sin you have a well established nation with every wonder possible, billions in the bank and low infra range. So even with sanctions it wouldnt really effect your nation aslong as you secure just one trade from anywhere thats uranium to carry on your vendetta. So i dont see a problem unless you're that pissed off with with slightly lowered collections? Which shouldnt bother you due to your warchest.

You may be lucky and get some sanctions lifted, but thats a lottery of whether the alliances controlling the senates believe you to be a nuclear rogue or not, its been the way of this world for years and you should of known this.

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1311585497' post='2763308']
So let me get this straight, you were sitting in this bar, and some Valhallan dude walked upto you and punched you out, you punched back, you scrapped, both got bloody noses, both went home.

Then the week after that, you go to the bar, and see the dude again, only this time you punch out his buddy, right? Then they sort of get together and beat the snot out of you and invite their good neighbours from IRON to partake in the festivities. Then they warn everyone not to come near you.
[/quote]

Close, but it's more like this:

He was sitting at said bar, and Tronix and Jesper jumped him, they had a good scrape and every one went home. A week later he attacked our little brother who's still in high school and some more of the family jumped in, they fought it out, and went home. Then the week after THAT he attacked some of our elementary school kids and we did it again.

It was then that I asked NAH for assistance since i knew they had low end nukes available. I never spoke with Rabt, so he never knew the story.

It's only recently that we started seeking sanctions, months down the road. He's been let off free and clear several times and continues to reestablish aggressive nuclear wars, that's no longer defending himself, that's nuclear roguery.

[WarriorConcept]

Well done King Sin. Valhalla declared war on you when they attacked you and you are fighting back trying to do as much damage as possible. It's unfortunate IRON is in essence supporting a tech raid, but they are trying to be good allies.

Also it's humorous the irony that is Valhalla's argument. "We attacked a weak nation out of the blue and now he's attacking our weak nations!"

Keep it up dude.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Avakael' timestamp='1311587740' post='2763319']
Curious- why would he want to join an ally of the alliance making an enemy of themselves to him, whether it was actually to fix the issue or not?
[/quote]
Bob is the patron saint of lost causes.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1311593586' post='2763336']
I even considered sending you some aid just to stir things up.
[/quote]
People like this just annoy the crap out of me. You're like the hipsters of CN. You're not being edgy or entertaining by "stirring things up". Not to mention that sending aid to a rogue (call it what you will, but rogue is close enough) isn't going to stir anything up. You're just going to get in crap with your own alliance for being dumb. Don't be dumb.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1311599241' post='2763364']
Well done King Sin. Valhalla declared war on you when they attacked you and you are fighting back trying to do as much damage as possible. It's unfortunate IRON is in essence supporting a tech raid, but they are trying to be good allies.

Also it's humorous the irony that is Valhalla's argument. "We attacked a weak nation out of the blue and now he's attacking our weak nations!"

Keep it up dude.[/quote]

Bad summary of event, followed by bad advice, and then a not entirely accurate summation of Valhalla's stance on all this. You're losing your edge, old man.

Surely you can't be serious.

[Jrenster]

Tech raiding a guy with nukes is just asking for trouble.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1311601628' post='2763376']
Bad summary of event, followed by bad advice, and then a not entirely accurate summation of Valhalla's stance on all this. You're losing your edge, old man.

Surely you can't be serious.
[/quote]

I've read the entire thread. I know you guys have been and are still offering peace, but he is well within his right to ask for terms considering he's the one who was attacked first. Of course valhalla has more connections and firepower than he does, and they can easily turn him into a PZI target. Regardless of that he's still fighting, so good on him. I'm sure you guys will enjoy the casualties as well.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1311599241' post='2763364']
Well done King Sin. Valhalla declared war on you when they attacked you and you are fighting back trying to do as much damage as possible. It's unfortunate IRON is in essence supporting a tech raid, but they are trying to be good allies.

Also it's humorous the irony that is Valhalla's argument. "We attacked a weak nation out of the blue and now he's attacking our weak nations!"

Keep it up dude.
[/quote]
Hals right your fangs are getting dull WC. We didnt attack a weak nation, two of our members went on a raid. They were on their own with out AA support. Read back to Levis explanation it was quite good.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1311602143' post='2763377']
Tech raiding a guy with nukes is just asking for trouble.
[/quote]
We dont mind the casualties and once again we didnt come here to complain about this guy, he brought it to the OWF.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1311599241' post='2763364']
Well done King Sin. Valhalla declared war on you when they attacked you and you are fighting back trying to do as much damage as possible. It's unfortunate IRON is in essence supporting a tech raid, but they are trying to be good allies.

Also it's humorous the irony that is Valhalla's argument. "We attacked a weak nation out of the blue and now he's attacking our weak nations!"

Keep it up dude.
[/quote]

Okay, I don't get this mentality? If those who are opposed to tech-raiding think that a war was declared, thus allowing the raid victim the capability of declaring war several times over the course of a couple months, how is it a mere tech-raid when Valhalla responds to said attacks? That has got to be some of the most twisted thinking I have seen. Either the raid was always a raid, in which case the raid victim is a nuclear rogue. Or the raid was actually a full on declaration of War in which case, Valhalla is more than free to receive support from allies in pursuit of war.

You simply cannot have it both ways. Be consistent otherwise your entire argument looks stupid and you look utterly biased.

As for a weak nation, I think you have no idea what you speak of. From what I have gathered, the so-called "weak" nation was not only nuclear capable, but had all wonders possible which would include the WRC. Not only that but the so-called "weak" nation also has a billions deep warchest. If you believe that to be a weak nation, then you have no clue what you speak of at all. But considering you flip-flop between the initial raid being a full on Declaration of War and a mere tech-raid, it should be quite obvious that you actually have no clue what you speak of.

You could do so much better WC. So much better.

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1311603399' post='2763388']
I've read the entire thread. I know you guys have been and are still offering peace, but he is well within his right to ask for terms considering he's the one who was attacked first. Of course valhalla has more connections and firepower than he does, and they can easily turn him into a PZI target. Regardless of that he's still fighting, so good on him. I'm sure you guys will enjoy the casualties as well.
[/quote]

Okay, I am sorry, this is actually the stupidest thing you said. PZI target? In this case, Valhalla did not pursue this guy, he pursued them. If he is the one who has continued to attack them, and will obviously do so in the future, how is it that Valhalla is making him a PZI target? Oh because they refuse to change their charter to suit the whims of someone outside their alliance? So, from this, I should take it that you, WC, are perfectly fine with someone outside of VE attempting to force VE to change their charter? Gotcha. Just do not flip flop again. Well actually, I should say inb4WCflipflopsagain.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1311604061' post='2763393']
We dont mind the casualties and once again we didnt come here to complain about this guy, he brought it to the OWF.
[/quote]

Fair enough. Just wanted to point out the obvious and that nuclear capable nations usually aren't exactly the same cakewalk to raid as non-nuclear capable nations.

Personally, I think you guys are fully in your right to use sanctions and whatever means you have to destroy him, despite the fact that you were tech raiding him. This argument about whether or not he's a rogue is moot. The fight remains that he's fighting back. Then it's escalation and Valhalla is in their right to respond accordingly.