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Just an itsy bitsy question


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[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1311566635' post='2763152']
A nation that is raided has every right to fight back and fight off its attackers without any further penalization. We recognize that. However, we also believe that once the raided nation begins nuclear attacks against separate, defenseless nations then this original victim has turned aggressive and become a nuclear rogue in every sense of the word. ]
[/quote]
So if the nations he had chosen to declare on had SDI's he's in the clear? SDI's qualify as "defenses" right?

Sorry, it begged the question.



In my humble opinion, Valhalla should take full responsibility for their raiding policy. They should understand that allowing their nations to raid opens up the possibility of nations retaliating against the alliance (which allowed, if not encouraged, the raiding). Valhalla should be able to respond with the full, individual force and resources of their alliance but should have the good sense and responsibility not to pull other alliances in to the situation. After all, you chose your bed knowing full well what the possible risks entailed.

This means that you shouldn't ask for other alliances to sanction or help with the fight. If you have a senator then sanction him on your team, as that falls within your individual resources, if you do not then you [i]should[/i] understand that it increases the risks undertaken with a free raiding policy. (I have no clue whether you have a senator or not because I can't muster up enough interest in your team to care, heh. For no other reason than that I'm inactive and when I can care about economies they tend to be black ones. I'm also lazy.)

Edited by Wilhelm the Demented
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To clarify, GOONS is not raiding NAAC. NAAC are the targets of what appears to be a group of rogues who have hit multiple alliances. Those rogues are being hit by multiple GOONS nations.

To get back on topic, getting someone sanctioned after you tech raided them is a pretty !@#$%* thing to do, but I somehow doubt Valhalla would just completely refuse to peace with a nuke rogue, especially after raiding them. Needs more full story.

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Following the initial tech raid, King Sin was personally offered peace more than once (and we have screenshots of this). However, he refused to accept anything but the following term:

[quote][20:26] <Sin> All right
[20:26] <Sin> I would like to offer terms
[20:27] <Sin> Well there is only one term...
[20:27] <Levistus> go on
[20:28] <Sin> Your alliance publicly states in the alliance announcements section on the common forums that it will never engage in tech raiding ever again. It must be signed by all the government of your alliance.[/quote]

Not only is this the case, but King Sin was also looking for the opportunity to do just what he is doing now:

[quote]Session Start: Tue May 17 03:18:51 2011
Session Ident: Sin
[03:18] Session Ident: Sin (Coldfront, Jesper) (King--sin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
[03:18] <Sin> lol feel good?
[03:18] <Sin> How good did it feel?
[03:19] <Jesper> Awesome
[03:19] <Sin> You know how long I have been sitting around waiting for someone stupid enough to attack me?
[03:19] <Sin> You know the last time I actually bouth something?
[03:19] <Sin> Years ago
[03:20] <Sin> this is going to be a very very long war with a lot of nukes. I can hardly wait!!
[03:20] <Jesper> You know how long me and tronix been waiting for achance to blow stuff up?
[03:20] <Jesper> Yay
[03:20] <Jesper> My casulties have become embarrasing after this last war <.<
[03:20] <Sin> Yea it won't just be you. I intend to pleague your alliance for years
[03:20] <Sin> so have fun with that
[03:20] * Sin (King--sin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) Quit (Quit: )[/quote]

Clearly, this is more than an innocent raid victim seeking justice. This is a man hellbent on an unreasonable term or permanent holocaust, with no room for compromise.

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[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1311567904' post='2763180']
I'm guessing King Sin would want $$$ for Valhalla's original raid.[/quote]

You would think so, eh? <_<

He's not interested. :shrug:

Most [b]rational[/b] nation leaders would be seeking compensation for damages if they felt strongly about it, not decide it's time to go up in the bell tower. :shrug:

[quote name='Wilhelm the Demented' timestamp='1311568613' post='2763190']
In my humble opinion, Valhalla should take full responsibility for their raiding policy. [/quote]

I don't recall us not taking responsibility for it.

As for not making use of our allies...at this point why would we fight with one arm tied behind our back? We deserved to be punished? <_<

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[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1311569437' post='2763205']
Clearly, this is more than an innocent raid victim seeking justice. This is a man hellbent on an unreasonable term or permanent holocaust, with no room for compromise.
[/quote]

Even so, he is no rogue. The sanctions should never have been placed.

Where do people get this idea that the one who starts the war gets to decide when it's over? You attacked him and now you are at war until he is satisfied. Deal with it.

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[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1311570589' post='2763221']
Even so, he is no rogue. The sanctions should never have been placed.

Where do people get this idea that the one who starts the war gets to decide when it's over? You attacked him and now you are at war until he is satisfied. Deal with it.
[/quote]
Actually, he is. A tech raid is limited to individual attackers, without support from their alliance most of the time. When you choose to attack an alliance, you have now entered a different realm then if you attack the people attacking you. You have become a rogue. The sanctions are justified if you believe sanctions should be used on a nuclear rogue.

That being said, Valhalla has offered him a way out, and I have offered to help him pursue that way out. I don't see the problem with their actions here.

Edited by Penlugue Solaris
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To be clear. I did not post here to complain about being attacked or being in any war. I came here because I feel that this is too far and these sanctions should not have happened and more importantly, should not happen again in the future. Valhalla offered no monetary compensation for their attacks on me nor do I seek any. I am sure Valhalla knows full well I have a warchest bigger than every nation I have fought so far combined, but that is besides the point.

This started out as an aggressive war on my by an alliance. I looked forward to flexing my muscles and doing some damage, as you can see from the logs RePePe has posted. By the way thanks for adding the dates for those. The logs depicting me lusting at the chance to fight are from days after the conflict started. The other logs talking about terms was after they sanctioned me the first time on the red sphere(when I was a member there).

Everything including how the war will end does not really matter. This is about Valhalla not having the ability to defend itself and its willingness to lie to its allies in order to benefit itself in a war they began. I see a lot of people from Valhalla talking about how I am a rogue and whining about how I do not fight fair ect. but I do not see any of them denying they lied to their allies. So come here and tell me you did not lie. Tell me you told all those alliances that have sanctioned me on their respect teams the full story. You certainly did not tell Cult of Justitia the only time I was sanctioned by them... It appears IRON did not know either:

[IMG]http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/1259/unledcut.png[/IMG]

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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311572195' post='2763233']
To be clear. I did not post here to complain about being attacked or being in any war. I came here because I feel that this is too far and these sanctions should not have happened and more importantly, should not happen again in the future. Valhalla offered no monetary compensation for their attacks on me nor do I seek any. I am sure Valhalla knows full well I have a warchest bigger than every nation I have fought so far combined, but that is besides the point.

This started out as an aggressive war on my by an alliance. I looked forward to flexing my muscles and doing some damage, as you can see from the logs RePePe has posted. By the way thanks for adding the dates for those. The logs depicting me lusting at the chance to fight are from days after the conflict started. The other logs talking about terms was after they sanctioned me the first time on the red sphere(when I was a member there).

Everything including how the war will end does not really matter. This is about Valhalla not having the ability to defend itself and its willingness to lie to its allies in order to benefit itself in a war they began. I see a lot of people from Valhalla talking about how I am a rogue and whining about how I do not fight fair ect. but I do not see any of them denying they lied to their allies. So come here and tell me you did not lie. Tell me you told all those alliances that have sanctioned me on their respect teams the full story. You certainly did not tell Cult of Justitia the only time I was sanctioned by them... It appears IRON did not know either:
[/quote]
They aren't assisting on a tech raid, since you started the war against their alliance dude. See my above post.

It was started as a tech raid by individuals, and you decided to expand it to their alliance. As a result, you became a rogue. They aren't lying to their allies, they are telling them exactly what happened. You may disagree with the fact that you are now a rogue because of you attacking their alliance, but that's how it is viewed by probably half of the game, the other half being more moral/against tech raids.

To be clear, this is how it occured:

Jesper/TRON IX raid you. You attack back. Not a rogue, just someone defending himself.
You attack Valhalla after that war. Now you are a rogue, and a nuclear one at that. They are then entitled to the protection of their allies if necessary and yes, nuclear rogues are sometimes sanctioned. There is nothing wrong occurring here, just something that happens in the game. If you want out, then let me know. If not, don't complain about their methods to try to keep you from hurting them.

Edited by Penlugue Solaris
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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311572195' post='2763233']
To be clear. <snip>[/quote]

Not really.

Valhalla is nearing the 5 million NS mark and will pass it in the coming days. We will continue to grow in numbers, strength and on those occasions that you decide that you need attack us, we'll fix any damage you do and aid your target up quickly and easily such that they'll never be bothered with you again. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if we actually have nations in our lower mid-tier that [b]want[/b] to be attacked by you so they can get all that aide. :)

You want war, you got it. Let's just leave it at that...and oh btw, we won't be fighting fair either. After you've spent $3.4 billion and have absolutely nothing to show for it but bill lock, we might even throw you a going away party.

You see, you might [i]think[/i] you're a killing machine, but in reality you're really pretty impotent. A fool rushing about trying to make people feel sorry for you while you continue raging against us. You deserve no sympathy, no comfort, indeed no quarter.

Have fun I guess?

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[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311572588' post='2763236']
They aren't assisting on a tech raid, since you started the war against their alliance dude. See my above post.

It was started as a tech raid by individuals, and you decided to expand it to their alliance. As a result, you became a rogue. They aren't lying to their allies, they are telling them exactly what happened. You may disagree with the fact that you are now a rogue because of you attacking their alliance, but that's how it is viewed by probably half of the game, the other half being more moral/against tech raids.

To be clear, this is how it occured:

Jesper/TRON IX raid you. You attack back. Not a rogue, just someone defending himself.
You attack Valhalla after that war. Now you are a rogue, and a nuclear one at that. They are then entitled to the protection of their allies if necessary and yes, nuclear rogues are sometimes sanctioned. There is nothing wrong occurring here, just something that happens in the game. If you want out, then let me know. If not, don't complain about their methods to try to keep you from hurting them.
[/quote]
Let me out forward this scenario I have all ready mentioned to you. A few members of Valhalla's government decide to attack a member of The Dark Templar. You being the responsible person go and talk to their government to find out that that attack was approved by them. Their government stands behinds their members and condones all their actions in the war. Do you attack only those nations that attacked your alliance or the entire Valhalla alliance? What must it take for you to recognize an action has been taken by the alliance as a whole, what are the 'ingredients'?

Valhalla's charter states under Article 1 Section 2 B. "Valhalla seeks for peace in the world. Therefore, member nations are forbidden from engaging in aggressive wars without prior approval from the Marshall", the Marshall being a government office would lead me to believe it was approved by the government therefor it is an action their alliance has taken. Their alliance attacked me and we are now at war. I did not declare war on their alliance. This would not have happened and we would not be here today discussing it if they had not attacked me. They brought this upon themselves. That much is clear.

This is not a difficult concept to get.

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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311573744' post='2763247']
Let me out forward this scenario I have all ready mentioned to you. A few members of Valhalla's government decide to attack a member of The Dark Templar. You being the responsible person go and talk to their government to find out that that attack was approved by them. Their government stands behinds their members and condones all their actions in the war. Do you attack only those nations that attacked your alliance or the entire Valhalla alliance? What must it take for you to recognize an action has been taken by the alliance as a whole, what are the 'ingredients'?[/quote]
They condone their actions by sending them aid and declaring an alliance war, or by offering you peace like they have been, which you ignore and attack them again? And yes, I would just attack the nations responsible for the attacks against my alliance, and if they decided to defend the $%&@s for attacking me, that's their problem not mine.

[quote]
Valhalla's charter states under Article 1 Section 2 B. "Valhalla seeks for peace in the world. Therefore, member nations are forbidden from engaging in aggressive wars without prior approval from the Marshall", the Marshall being a government office would lead me to believe it was approved by the government therefor it is an action their alliance has taken. Their alliance attacked me and we are now at war. I did not declare war on their alliance. This would not have happened and we would not be here today discussing it if they had not attacked me. They brought this upon themselves. That much is clear.[/quote]
Difference between declaring war on you and tech raiding you. Approving two individual members to engage in a tech raid is different from an alliance DoW. They do not have the support of their alliance when they engage in a tech raid, and thus the alliance is not responsible for defending them should the person choose to fight back. When you decide to engage the alliance, then the alliance responded in kind.
[quote]
This is not a difficult concept to get.
[/quote]
I find it hard to believe you are missing the point, and rather instead appear to be ignoring it in order to advance your own personal agenda. Enjoy, I won't be spending my time trying to help you since you are just being a martyr here, not actually looking for a solution.

Edited by Penlugue Solaris
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[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1311573524' post='2763245']
Not really.

Valhalla is nearing the 5 million NS mark and will pass it in the coming days. We will continue to grow in numbers, strength and on those occasions that you decide that you need attack us, we'll fix any damage you do and aid your target up quickly and easily such that they'll never be bothered with you again. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if we actually have nations in our lower mid-tier that [b]want[/b] to be attacked by you so they can get all that aide. :)

You want war, you got it. Let's just leave it at that...and oh btw, we won't be fighting fair either. After you've spent $3.4 billion and have absolutely nothing to show for it but bill lock, we might even throw you a going away party.

You see, you might [i]think[/i] you're a killing machine, but in reality you're really pretty impotent. A fool rushing about trying to make people feel sorry for you while you continue raging against us. You deserve no sympathy, no comfort, indeed no quarter.

Have fun I guess?
[/quote]
Is this a joke? You actually just dodged everything I said and asked and you say this nonsense... You obviously do not get it. I DO NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY NATION! I have said that from the start. Please reread what I said an respond to my questions regarding your alliance's lying to your own allies.

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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311574005' post='2763249']
Is this a joke? You actually just dodged everything I said and asked and you say this nonsense... You obviously do not get it. I DO NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY NATION! I have said that from the start. Please reread what I said an respond to my questions regarding your alliance's lying to your own allies.
[/quote]

But you stay here and whine. :ph34r:

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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311574005' post='2763249']
Is this a joke? You actually just dodged everything I said and asked and you say this nonsense... You obviously do not get it. I DO NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY NATION! I have said that from the start. Please reread what I said an respond to my questions regarding your alliance's lying to your own allies.
[/quote]
I do believe I replied to that in full. They did not lie, you just have a different view on the situation then they do.

Edited by Penlugue Solaris
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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311574005' post='2763249']
Is this a joke? You actually just dodged everything I said and asked and you say this nonsense... You obviously do not get it. I DO NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY NATION! I have said that from the start. Please reread what I said an respond to my questions regarding your alliance's lying to your own allies.
[/quote]
Then why the OWF topic complaining about what's happening to your nation?

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[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311573982' post='2763248']
They condone their actions by sending them aid and declaring an alliance war, or by offering you peace like they have been, which you ignore and attack them again?


Difference between declaring war on you and tech raiding you.

I find it hard to believe you are missing the point, and rather instead appear to be ignoring it in order to advance your own personal agenda. Enjoy, I won't be spending my time trying to help you since you are just being a martyr here, not actually looking for a solution.
[/quote]
My experiences when being in alliances is that you do not except peace offers until terms have been worked out. I can see your point quite clearly. You have presented it very nicely and attempted to [pun]tailor[/pun] it to this situation but it simply does not [pun]fit.[/pun] I suppose I must break this down even further for you and presumably others to understand. What is an act of war by an alliance? I believe it to be an attack sanctioned by the government of that alliance. This is not a rhetorical question.

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[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1311574243' post='2763253']
Then why the OWF topic complaining about what's happening to your nation?
[/quote]
I care about the sanctions being used the way they were and how they were brought about. It is unjust and sets a horrible precedent.

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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311574517' post='2763258']
My experiences when being in alliances is that you do not except peace offers until terms have been worked out. I can see your point quite clearly. You have presented it very nicely and attempted to [pun]tailor[/pun] it to this situation but it simply does not [pun]fit.[/pun] I suppose I must break this down even further for you and presumably others to understand. What is an act of war by an alliance? I believe it to be an attack sanctioned by the government of that alliance. This is not a rhetorical question.
[/quote]
You can accept peace offers whenever you choose to, however your government may not be happy with you if you choose to do so.

I think there is a separation of what is an act of war from a tech raid. Tech raids must be approved in order to confirm they are actually not aligned nations. Wars (being alliance v alliance war) must be approved because they involve the whole alliance.

[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311574688' post='2763260']
I care about the sanctions being used the way they were and how they were brought about. It is unjust and sets a horrible precedent.
[/quote]

The precedent is just, the way we reached it is not the best, however. You have put yourself into a situation where you are a nuclear rogue. You could have chosen to attack Jesper and TRON IX, instead you decided to attack their alliance.

Edited by Penlugue Solaris
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[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1311574935' post='2763263']
You can accept peace offers whenever you choose to, however your government may not be happy with you if you choose to do so.

I think there is a separation of what is an act of war from a tech raid. Tech raids must be approved in order to confirm they are actually not aligned nations. Wars (being alliance v alliance war) must be approved because they involve the whole alliance.
[/quote]
So what must take place for an alliance to declare on a single nation? Can you even distinguish between the two?

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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311574688' post='2763260']
I care about the sanctions being used the way they were and how they were brought about. It is unjust and sets a horrible precedent.
[/quote]

So you are saying that it is OK for you to do whatever you want for as long as you want in response to the initial raid but you came here to complain that Valhalla had options as well and exercised them after you would not accept peace?

Good luck with that.

Edited by Rampage3
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[quote name='King sin' timestamp='1311575058' post='2763265']
So what must take place for an alliance to declare on a single nation? Can you even distinguish between the two?
[/quote]
An alliance declaration of war, decided by the leader of the alliance. Chefjoe is the only person in the alliance capable of declaring a war against an alliance (or a single nation, for that matter), while the marshal of war is capable of authorizing tech raids. One is war until peace is reached between alliances, while the other is peace between nations. You stretched out and instead of keeping at TRON IX and Jesper, made it into a war against their alliance. You were capable of keeping it between you three, so why didn't you if you didn't want to attack their alliance?

Edited by Penlugue Solaris
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