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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1310532645' post='2755345']
[color="#0000FF"]Eventually. Though I had some doubts about Moo's abilities for sometime, I passively stood by and did nothing. The only person to vocally support Ivan was Musso. Had the chance to do it again I wouldn't make that mistake.

But yes, they knew my sympathies were with Ivan, and also with ES (who gave me more information about what the NPO was doing than the IOs). They gradually purged all those who were no cronies. I was one of the first to go (if we're not counting the military exodus the was in the wake of Anthony's expulsion). The bled more as well. Lesser positions too, such as battalion lieutenants, were filled with incapable people. Two reasons for this. One, they didn't want people to ask questions, and lieutenants were prominent enough in the alliance that people might look to them, and if they asked questions, so would others. Secondly, the vanity of the IOs couldn't allow for others to outshine them, lest people see how mediocre that majority of them really were. The NPO was great at bleeding talent, almost rivaling GGA I'd say. Granted NPO has such an abundance that they'll never reach GGA level, but they lost a lot of good people. They realized that their work would never pay off. The only ones who got recognition and reward were Moo's cronies and their yes-men. It is no wonder the NPO fell as it did with that sort of management.[/color]
[/quote]

Interesting reading, I notice you became Intel director of NPO after the Moldavi Rebellion and stayed in the position 3 months.

Edited by Alterego
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[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1310534799' post='2755362']
Interesting reading, I notice you became Intel director of NPO after the Moldavi Rebellion and stayed in the position 3 months.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I had been acting as the head of intelligence for months prior, although I had the title Colonel. That was still my work. The reshuffle after that incident landed me only a new title, not a new position. The only noticeable change was the increased influence of IOs in my department, and they assumed much of my duties. Eventually I was marginalized, cast aside, and then formally axed. Well, not formally. I was told it would be best if I took a permanent vacation, or else.[/color]

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[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1310433934' post='2754616']Moo could decide to keep [b]Polaris, an alliance with myriad enemies and a leader who was at times openly hostile[/b] toward the NPO, or Q, the game's main power. In the event, he tried to do both, but I think that giving up Polaris rather than giving up eleven other alliances was the better decision.[/quote]
[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1310486427' post='2754944']As [b]ES kept doing things to tick people off across Planet Bob[/b] people within Q started dropping treaties with Polar.[/quote]
[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1310493711' post='2754989']Remember that within the member alliances of Q, and those alliances that were their closest allies, there were literally hundreds of members that were former members of alliances that [b]disbanded as a result of the Unjust War[/b]. Add to that the fact that there were Q members and close allies to Q members themselves that [b]had surrendered to NpO and its allies[/b] during the Unjust War.[/quote]
At Karma's time I always found it funny how people quickly had "forgotten" what an aggressive tyrant Sponge had used to be. To be clear: I think that ES was a great player and the character he played was absolutely awesome, yet it was a very aggressive and (legitimately) destructive one which, surprisingly, after a while "magically" ended being considered almost a saint.
Hilarious.

On the other hand I am among those that think that NPO's position of power stopped being unassailable exactly when they "lost" Polaris. They probably tried to avoid it and, as Crymson put it, they probably chose between Polar and Q only at the last available moment, when ES's FA eventually left them with no other choice, but it was a hit for their power the same.

Had Ivan been Emperor instead of Moo he could have gotten along very well with ES or maybe their two huge egos would have clashed - I can't really tell about that. I tend to think it would have been the latter.

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[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1310550564' post='2755406']
At Karma's time I always found it funny how people quickly had "forgotten" what an aggressive tyrant Sponge had used to be. To be clear: I think that ES was a great player and the character he played was absolutely awesome, yet it was a very aggressive and (legitimately) destructive one which, surprisingly, after a while "magically" ended being considered almost a saint.
Hilarious.

On the other hand I am among those that think that NPO's position of power stopped being unassailable exactly when they "lost" Polaris. They probably tried to avoid it and, as Crymson put it, they probably chose between Polar and Q only at the last available moment, when ES's FA eventually left them with no other choice, but it was a hit for their power the same.

Had Ivan been Emperor instead of Moo he could have gotten along very well with ES or maybe their two huge egos would have clashed - I can't really tell about that. I tend to think it would have been the latter.
[/quote]

What I did notice during Frostbite, while the Liquor Cabinet still existed, Sponge kind of acted like the glue who kept the other 3 alliances together. I personally do think Ivan and Sponge would have gotten along better and kept the two alliances together.

I think Ivan-Sponge would've kept the two alliances much closer together politically, and I think there would have been a lot more GW2s/GWs/UJWs rather than WotC and whatnot, basically much more even sides. I wonder if NPO would have gotten their day of reckoning sooner, or not at all, had they not split apart.

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[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1310550564' post='2755406']
To be clear: I think that ES was a great player and the character he played was absolutely awesome.
[/quote]

Though my major feud in my time in CN government was with Sponge, and though I disliked him IC for the threat he presented to TOP, I think he was great for the game. He was one of those rare government leaders who both know that conflict is necessary in order for the game to be fun [b]AND[/b] had the guts to go and make it happen. I remember a Q&A he did once for everyone in CN; one of the questions was "Can't we all just get along?", and his answer was, "No, we can't all just get along, because CN would be boring if we all got along." This was an absolutely true and factual answer, but it's a fact that many of us constantly forget or don't have the courage to live by.

That said, I agree that he wasn't a CN saint, but you can't be feared [b]and[/b] loved.

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1310576689' post='2755495']
What I did notice during Frostbite, while the Liquor Cabinet still existed, Sponge kind of acted like the glue who kept the other 3 alliances together. I personally do think Ivan and Sponge would have gotten along better and kept the two alliances together.[/quote]

It's worth noting that in his Sponge's Polar days, he was highly motivated, highly active, and very powerful within the game. He led a strong alliance with a boatload of large allies. In his tLC days, by contrast, he was only moderately active, had much less interest in the game, and held very little power.

Edited by Crymson
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[quote name='WalkerNinja' timestamp='1310531235' post='2755333']
I suppose you're referring to the implosion? I don't see how Ivan could have prevented GOONS from OOC attacking Bilrow to the degree that their entire coalition abandoned them.
[/quote]

That is true about GOONS but I believe that if you change one thing everything changes.

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[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1310550564' post='2755406']
At Karma's time I always found it funny how people quickly had "forgotten" what an aggressive tyrant Sponge had used to be. To be clear: I think that ES was a great player and the character he played was absolutely awesome, yet it was a very aggressive and (legitimately) destructive one which, surprisingly, after a while "magically" ended being considered almost a saint.
Hilarious.[/quote]

OOC, I have two reactions to Sponge. First, everything I've heard from people who have taken the time to get to know him over a extended period of time seem to like him. I never did, so could be that he is genuinely a good guy. On the other hand, his insistence on playing through and not pausing the Unjust War while the whole Bilrow mess was resolved was disappointing. It made it appear as though he was obsessed with "winning" over any OOC considerations, which at that point most people on both sides were feeling pretty disgusted and genuinely not in the mood to play a browser-based game (not to mention facepalming in thought of the two months of lead up to the war going up in ashes). I've played many hours of RPGs, and done tons of wargaming in all forms and when something of the magnitude of the Bilrow Incident happened, the gaming session ended for the night. Had I been sitting around a table with Sponge playing D&D and he had insisting on playing through after something like that, he would have likely been asked if he had a drug problem and advised him to seek help as I packed my books and manuals to leave.

IC...I always saw Sponge as a nemesis and nothing I saw IC from the logs I read of secret back channel WUT leadership meetings before my time in power at \m/ through \m/'s attempts to get peace in the Unjust War to the days of BLEU supremacy led me to believe that Sponge was anything but an egomaniac that didn't really care about anything beyond himself, Polaris, and what other people could do for him or Polaris. I took great delight in poking him or NpO in general with a fork on the OWF and behind the scenes to others whenever the opportunity presented itself and given the actions of NpO from September 2007 on there was much to poke a fork at. I danced when Sponge lost power, danced when he left Planet Bob, and when he made his return with Vox that pretty much effectively poisoned any sort of relationship I was going to have with that organization. The arguments I had with Lady Dakota over why I wouldn't join Vox always included at some point the fact that any organization that Sponge was a part of was an organization that I wouldn't join under any circumstances. The consensus around the leadership circles of Rok was that Sponge was back to try to get his crown back and Vox was his vehicle. Whether that was actually true or not, I don't know. I will tell you however that whatever assistance he provided Vox Populi never made up from the evil he did as Emperor of NpO and I'm not alone in thinking that, whatever Schatt, Doitzel, and company want to say about it.

All that said...both IC and OOC, I've made my own sort of peace with what went on in the past and if he returns again (haven't checked in a long time to see if he's rerolled), I'd welcome him back. This game needs more charismatic characters, even Electron Sponges.

[quote]On the other hand I am among those that think that NPO's position of power stopped being unassailable exactly when they "lost" Polaris. They probably tried to avoid it and, as Crymson put it, they probably chose between Polar and Q only at the last available moment, when ES's FA eventually left them with no other choice, but it was a hit for their power the same.[/quote]

Before the WotC I spoke at length with members of Browncoats and Rok at various times about how there would be no way to ever assail NPO so long as the OoO existed. When that was cancelled, and NpO taken down several notches, the next logical target, the next "mountain to climb" was taking down NPO. I always believed that--indeed the game needed NPO to be defeated in a war if the game was going to progress. I thought Karma was that war, but ultimately we had an extended period of "welcome the new boss, same as the old boss" instead. It was like those that defeated NPO couldn't believe they actually did it, and that those who had been NPO's strongest allies hadn't seen the light and moved on with their FA. I think that attitude is now finally changed, but...I question if it happened soon enough.

[quote]Had Ivan been Emperor instead of Moo he could have gotten along very well with ES or maybe their two huge egos would have clashed - I can't really tell about that. I tend to think it would have been the latter.[/quote]

Typical back channel WUT leadership meetings included a lot of bickering that Moo had to mediate. I felt sorry for him after reading some of what went on. If Ivan had been of a mind to kick some tails and get people moving in the same direction, then perhaps the WUT doesn't break up for considerably longer but...I just can't see that taking place. Ivan, Sponge, and NinR in one space makes me envision some sort of world shattering explosion just waiting to happen.

Edited by ChairmanHal
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Too many long posts I want to reply, but in a nutshell:

The Second Patriotic War was rooted as much in the Viricide as the cancellation of the OoO. By which I mean the Second Patriotic War was the result of trends years in the making and anyone who talks about it as a result of a few decisions or actions is either misguided, misinformed, or flat out dumb. But, for the sake of posterity, I'll provide a narrative and start at the beginning:

Neither Order liked the destruction of the original Viridian Entente. Not just because VE did not deserve such a fate, but because the conflict proved how certain significant elements of the World Unity Treaty had very little compunction when it came to the mass murder of a former friend and ally. This general amoral lust for violence as well as the growing statistical strength of two of its chief proponents, FAN and GOONS, led the Orders to discuss long term strategy in late May. Sponge, with Ivan's support, wanted to begin making active preparations for an eventual break. Moo, while recognizing the long term threat, thought dialogue with moderate elements could still be constructive and diplomacy could maintain Order supremacy.

Fast forward three months. FAN is dead, Random has built the Polar MDP web under orders from Sponge, and certain players have been removed in a major scandal. As a result, those players' alliances, who would become known as the Unjust Path, start screaming bloody murder and demanding the sacrifice of certain other players. Convinced the break in WUT is at hand, Sponge and Ivan push Moo to starting aligning NPO more clearly with Polar's position. Moo refuses, believing diplomacy could still settle things. Out of patience, Sponge and Ivan, with the assistance of BlackAdder, pressure Moo into resigning. NPO's other leadership does not respond well, Ivan is overthrown and Moo retakes the thrown. Before things spiral too far out of control, however, diplomacy wins out and a month long cold war begins between Polar and the Unjust Path, with NPO caught in the middle.

Long story short, Moo brings the NPO down on Polar's side as a non-belligerent ally, the Polar MDP Web works like a charm, and the leadership of GOONS effectively self-destructs. A major victory for the Orders, but tension remains and Sponge, in his uniquely blunt way, tells Moo that Polar is no longer playing second fiddle and that Polar has the power of life and death over NPO (NPO claims this is a threat meant to keep them in line, while I take the view that Sponge was warning off retaliation now that the mutual enemy was dead).

At this point, I think, NPO made a conscious decision. They did not like that Polar had the power over them it did and they no longer believed Sponge (and through Sponge Polar) could be relied upon to act fraternally. So they rarely intervened to help Polar when it made poor decisions, they actively undermined Polar's position, and they built a new power base by reaching out to alliances who outright hated Polar (first Citadel, then Superfriends). As best as I can figure, the moderates in NPO thought they could break Polar and turn it into a subsidiary once again while the hardliners thought NPO would be better without Polar altogether.

Problem is once the engine picks up steam you can't just stop it by asking it to, and sending your brother on a collision course with death is bad press. The NPO moderates underestimated how hard Polar's enemies would come for blood once it was weakened and the hardliners severely underestimated just how poorly the death of one Order and the prosperity of the other would be received, both internally and externally. So Polar got smashed, NPO lost political capital and the NPO brand was irrevocably damaged.

Now do I think NPO ordered TOP et al into battle against Polar in the SPW? Nope. But I sincerely believe NPO, sometimes gleefully, helped Polar and it's enemies pave the way to war, at least until they realized how counter-productive it was to their own agenda. But at that point it was too late.

So tl;dr, NPO made a political play in the post-UJW world which didn't pan out as they expected.


Also in regard to the OP, I think sooner or later the Orders would have ended up at each others throats. I love Sponge and Ivan dearly, but they're both massive egomaniacs and without a common enemy they would've clashed eventually.

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[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1310486427' post='2754944']
To be fair many others were working to isolate Polar from the moment the Unjust War ended. What NPO may have talked about and what they might have done with other alliances outside of Q is not what I can speak to. However, withing Q NPO was often alone in defending Polar. As ES kept doing things to tick people off across Planet Bob people within Q started dropping treaties with Polar. After the VE incident we decided we needed to send Polar a message and killed our treaty. When we informed Q I got two queries one was Moo asking why we had dropped the treaty and he did not seem happy. The second was from one of Spartas Kings, I dont recall whom, who asked what they should do with the treaty they held with Polar. I said they should whatever they wanted, that we had cancled because we hoped it would send a message to Polar and that we hoped things would get fixed and we could then re-sign. Spata then followed and cancled on Polar. After ES stepped down some within Q, TPF included, chilled to the idea of acting against Polar. At this point with TOP leading the charge the Citadel memebers of Q plus MCXA were still in a full court press on the issue and were joined from the outside by SF. At this point Q started to slip away from NPO as more and more they had to go from asking that Polar be left alone to demanding it. Things at this point were out of NPOs control and they had to make some hard choices. I agree with Crym when he says continued support to Polar would have cost NPO Q right then.

When the war planning began TPF was asked to be in on Polar something I refused. Honestly with ES gone I did not see the point of it all but, to many people wanted war and so we honored out treaties. At no point did NPO ever even suggest we cancel on Polar and often to be honest NPO was the one voice defending Polar. What Pacifica did outside of Q I can not say.
[/quote]

I can attest to that as well. If anything, NPO wanted to shelter Polaris from the inevitable !@#$storm. In the end, they realized they couldnt risk Q's integrity over it. I remember facepalming really hard when Moo made that "Hell is gonna freeze over before the OoO gets cancelled" thread.

Edited by HellAngel
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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1310680283' post='2756262']
Too many long posts I want to reply, but in a nutshell:

The Second Patriotic War was rooted as much in the Viricide as the cancellation of the OoO. By which I mean the Second Patriotic War was the result of trends years in the making and anyone who talks about it as a result of a few decisions or actions is either misguided, misinformed, or flat out dumb. But, for the sake of posterity, I'll provide a narrative and start at the beginning:

Neither Order liked the destruction of the original Viridian Entente. Not just because VE did not deserve such a fate, but because the conflict proved how certain significant elements of the World Unity Treaty had very little compunction when it came to the mass murder of a former friend and ally. This general amoral lust for violence as well as the growing statistical strength of two of its chief proponents, FAN and GOONS, led the Orders to discuss long term strategy in late May. Sponge, with Ivan's support, wanted to begin making active preparations for an eventual break. Moo, while recognizing the long term threat, thought dialogue with moderate elements could still be constructive and diplomacy could maintain Order supremacy.

Fast forward three months. FAN is dead, Random has built the Polar MDP web under orders from Sponge, and certain players have been removed in a major scandal. As a result, those players' alliances, who would become known as the Unjust Path, start screaming bloody murder and demanding the sacrifice of certain other players. Convinced the break in WUT is at hand, Sponge and Ivan push Moo to starting aligning NPO more clearly with Polar's position. Moo refuses, believing diplomacy could still settle things. Out of patience, Sponge and Ivan, with the assistance of BlackAdder, pressure Moo into resigning. NPO's other leadership does not respond well, Ivan is overthrown and Moo retakes the thrown. Before things spiral too far out of control, however, diplomacy wins out and a month long cold war begins between Polar and the Unjust Path, with NPO caught in the middle.

Long story short, Moo brings the NPO down on Polar's side as a non-belligerent ally, the Polar MDP Web works like a charm, and the leadership of GOONS effectively self-destructs. A major victory for the Orders, but tension remains and Sponge, in his uniquely blunt way, tells Moo that Polar is no longer playing second fiddle and that Polar has the power of life and death over NPO (NPO claims this is a threat meant to keep them in line, while I take the view that Sponge was warning off retaliation now that the mutual enemy was dead).

At this point, I think, NPO made a conscious decision. They did not like that Polar had the power over them it did and they no longer believed Sponge (and through Sponge Polar) could be relied upon to act fraternally. So they rarely intervened to help Polar when it made poor decisions, they actively undermined Polar's position, and they built a new power base by reaching out to alliances who outright hated Polar (first Citadel, then Superfriends). As best as I can figure, the moderates in NPO thought they could break Polar and turn it into a subsidiary once again while the hardliners thought NPO would be better without Polar altogether.

Problem is once the engine picks up steam you can't just stop it by asking it to, and sending your brother on a collision course with death is bad press. The NPO moderates underestimated how hard Polar's enemies would come for blood once it was weakened and the hardliners severely underestimated just how poorly the death of one Order and the prosperity of the other would be received, both internally and externally. So Polar got smashed, NPO lost political capital and the NPO brand was irrevocably damaged.

Now do I think NPO ordered TOP et al into battle against Polar in the SPW? Nope. But I sincerely believe NPO, sometimes gleefully, helped Polar and it's enemies pave the way to war, at least until they realized how counter-productive it was to their own agenda. But at that point it was too late.

So tl;dr, NPO made a political play in the post-UJW world which didn't pan out as they expected.


Also in regard to the OP, I think sooner or later the Orders would have ended up at each others throats. I love Sponge and Ivan dearly, but they're both massive egomaniacs and without a common enemy they would've clashed eventually.
[/quote]
This is an excellent post and I insist everybody read it.

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[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1310680283' post='2756262']
Too many long posts I want to reply, but in a nutshell:

The Second Patriotic War was rooted as much in the Viricide as the cancellation of the OoO. By which I mean the Second Patriotic War was the result of trends years in the making and anyone who talks about it as a result of a few decisions or actions is either misguided, misinformed, or flat out dumb. But, for the sake of posterity, I'll provide a narrative and start at the beginning:

Neither Order liked the destruction of the original Viridian Entente. Not just because VE did not deserve such a fate, but because the conflict proved how certain significant elements of the World Unity Treaty had very little compunction when it came to the mass murder of a former friend and ally. This general amoral lust for violence as well as the growing statistical strength of two of its chief proponents, FAN and GOONS, led the Orders to discuss long term strategy in late May. Sponge, with Ivan's support, wanted to begin making active preparations for an eventual break. Moo, while recognizing the long term threat, thought dialogue with moderate elements could still be constructive and diplomacy could maintain Order supremacy.

Fast forward three months. FAN is dead, Random has built the Polar MDP web under orders from Sponge, and certain players have been removed in a major scandal. As a result, those players' alliances, who would become known as the Unjust Path, start screaming bloody murder and demanding the sacrifice of certain other players. Convinced the break in WUT is at hand, Sponge and Ivan push Moo to starting aligning NPO more clearly with Polar's position. Moo refuses, believing diplomacy could still settle things. Out of patience, Sponge and Ivan, with the assistance of BlackAdder, pressure Moo into resigning. NPO's other leadership does not respond well, Ivan is overthrown and Moo retakes the thrown. Before things spiral too far out of control, however, diplomacy wins out and a month long cold war begins between Polar and the Unjust Path, with NPO caught in the middle.

Long story short, Moo brings the NPO down on Polar's side as a non-belligerent ally, the Polar MDP Web works like a charm, and the leadership of GOONS effectively self-destructs. A major victory for the Orders, but tension remains and Sponge, in his uniquely blunt way, tells Moo that Polar is no longer playing second fiddle and that Polar has the power of life and death over NPO (NPO claims this is a threat meant to keep them in line, while I take the view that Sponge was warning off retaliation now that the mutual enemy was dead).

At this point, I think, NPO made a conscious decision. They did not like that Polar had the power over them it did and they no longer believed Sponge (and through Sponge Polar) could be relied upon to act fraternally. So they rarely intervened to help Polar when it made poor decisions, they actively undermined Polar's position, and they built a new power base by reaching out to alliances who outright hated Polar (first Citadel, then Superfriends). As best as I can figure, the moderates in NPO thought they could break Polar and turn it into a subsidiary once again while the hardliners thought NPO would be better without Polar altogether.

Problem is once the engine picks up steam you can't just stop it by asking it to, and sending your brother on a collision course with death is bad press. The NPO moderates underestimated how hard Polar's enemies would come for blood once it was weakened and the hardliners severely underestimated just how poorly the death of one Order and the prosperity of the other would be received, both internally and externally. So Polar got smashed, NPO lost political capital and the NPO brand was irrevocably damaged.

Now do I think NPO ordered TOP et al into battle against Polar in the SPW? Nope. But I sincerely believe NPO, sometimes gleefully, helped Polar and it's enemies pave the way to war, at least until they realized how counter-productive it was to their own agenda. But at that point it was too late.

So tl;dr, NPO made a political play in the post-UJW world which didn't pan out as they expected.


Also in regard to the OP, I think sooner or later the Orders would have ended up at each others throats. I love Sponge and Ivan dearly, but they're both massive egomaniacs and without a common enemy they would've clashed eventually.[/quote]

First off good post, interesting perspective. I'll not going to quote and comment line for line...as you suggest, it gets wordy.

Something though that I always point out whenever someone from one or other of The Orders posts something that smacks of "I am a legitimate business man and I have no idea how that body ended up in a car trunk at my junkyard, your honor". The blood of the first VE is and always was on The Orders' hands, just as it was on the hands of GGA, GOONS, FAN and the rest. Never insist that yours was a lesser role or that because you didn't "like" it that somehow you are less guilty. As you suggest, FAN was similarly crushed. Why? Pure and simple, when a hitman is on the outs with the crime boss, his life expectancy dwindles dramatically. That is why the likes of \m/ and Genmay were allowed by NPO to burn (and never allowed to reform). Indeed, NPO had a long string of allies that met bad ends. It was in the lead up to the Karma War that you finally saw people be able to cut their ties with NPO and not suffer some sort of repercussion from it. That as much as anything should have clued people in that the world was soon going to be different--or could have been different.

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[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1310743859' post='2756639']
NSO not existing is enough for me to wish Ivan took the throne back.
[/quote]
It's these kind of posts that make me glad to be under the NSO banner.

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[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1310743859' post='2756639']
NSO not existing is enough for me to wish Ivan took the throne back.
[/quote]
I guess it must be quite embarrassing to be consistently shown up in the 'ability' and 'balls' categories by an alliance much smaller than your own.

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[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1310794474' post='2757113']
I guess it must be quite embarrassing to be consistently shown up in the 'ability' and 'balls' categories by an alliance much smaller than your own.
[/quote]

Ability? Really? Surely you can't be referring to NSO.

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[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1310807076' post='2757165']
We may not be the most skilled alliance, but even we far surpass Sparta.
[/quote]

I am not quite sure if this is an insult or a compliment. :awesome:

Edited by Charles Stuart
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[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1310807076' post='2757165']
We may not be the most skilled alliance, but even we far surpass Sparta.
[/quote]

Sparta does fairly well in war. NSO's skill lies in being target practice.

Edited by Crymson
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[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1310794474' post='2757113']
I guess it must be quite embarrassing to be consistently shown up in the 'ability' and 'balls' categories by an alliance much smaller than your own.
[/quote]
Looks like somebody is still mad that we used the Moldavi Doctrine before them.

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