What if...

[D34th]

If Crymson is saying so, then should be true.

[Dajobo]

Please don't D34th. It's nice having a sensible debate/discussion with Crymson without the antagonism for once.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1310444746' post='2754736']
Please don't D34th. It's nice having a sensible debate/discussion with Crymson without the antagonism for once.
[/quote]

The facade of levelheadedness you try so hard to project in public is really wasted on me.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Crymson

[Callebaut]

From what I understood about the whole cancellation of the OoO business, I never could determine Pacifica's motive at the time. Once the noCB war started, it became clear, though, that NPO decided to run the whole internal smear campaign (Doitzel's big info dump) in order to ready their public for the inevitable situation in which Polar would be getting rolled, and making sure that the Pacifican community would be safely distanced from them by that point.

I think the fact that Moo ran an internal propaganda campaign and the fact that he attempted to prevent noCB are two compatible situations. The first was a safety measure knowing the second would only be viable temporarily.

[Feanor Noldorin]

I think its safe to say (maybe not) that NPO would have teamed with the NpO to take out the UnJust Path. I only say that because from my memory Ivan really disliked GOONS. After that I have no clue.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Feanor Noldorin

[Conformist Maryland]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1310441979' post='2754686']
You weren't inside of Q. You didn't see the NPO stand in the way of the rest of us attacking your alliance, at the cost of badly pissing all of us off. The idea that it was a war-by-proxy is completely incorrect.
[/quote]

But Doitzel was. Just because NPO said one thing to its' allies, didn't mean that its motives weren't something else.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1310445406' post='2754744']
The facade of levelheadedness you try so hard to project in public is really wasted on me.
[/quote]

Way to be the better man! That really showed 'em! If anything, Dajobo just earned points with moderates. Heh...I just implied that there are moderates in CN..funny. Nevermind, carry on.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Conformist Maryland

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1310445545' post='2754748']
I think its safe to say (maybe not) that NPO would have teamed with the NpO to take out the UnJust Path. I only say that because from my memory Ivan really disliked GOONS. After that I have no clue.
[/quote]

Pretty much correct, from what I understand a great dislike of GOONS and \m/ was the reason behind the coup and that ES, who also hated those two, worked with Ivan to pull it off.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Conformist Maryland' timestamp='1310450358' post='2754792']
But Doitzel was. Just because NPO said one thing to its' allies, didn't mean that its motives weren't something else.
[/quote]

Does that mean that the WotC was NPO's "war by proxy" on NpO? No. It certainly wasn't, and that was my original point.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1310442501' post='2754697']
NPO spent months isolating Polaris, then decided that they wanted to prevent them being rolled after all. It's like dangling your brother over a pit of wolves and then eventually deciding to save him. Unfortunately for Polaris, the wolves got them. This is the only explanation which fits with the logs from De Profundis.
[/quote]
A likely explanation is that they wanted to keep Polar in check and keep them from becoming a rival, and hopefully maintain them as a meat shield, but keep them from getting rolled due to their historical connection. It didn't look good for NPO to have to let their "sister" alliance get rolled and I imagine that many in NPO still felt some degree of loyalty to NpO.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Azaghul

[zoskia]

Moo was a terrible leader.
Ivan waas a great leader.

And during the days before the "noCB" war I wrote to Moo and most of the NPO IO's asking them to do something about the war that was coming and they wrote back very hostile words.

I do remember telling Umbrae Noctem that if they allowed the NpO to be attacked that way, the NPO would be coming next.
He said: "there is no precedent".

When the NPO got attacked in a massive way I replied to him that very same PM. I wrote: "that's the precedent".


If Ivan was the leader of the NPO and Moo had never done such thing, planet Bob would be a paradise of full of fruits and wisdom and all of us would be running naked and having no shame about it. Period.

Moo was the worst thing that happened to both the NPO and the NpO.

[Letum]

The Polar/Pacific relationship back then was one of a very weird duality - membership being tied to each other, but leadership hostile. That's why NPO was doing seemingly contradicting actions of both saving Polar's skin and launching "bad publicity" campaigns; because we wanted the latter gone with the least possible damage to the former.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1310443167' post='2754703']
If Crymson is saying so, then should be true.
[/quote]

In this case Crymson is right 100%.

[Conformist Maryland]

[quote name='zoskia' timestamp='1310462781' post='2754851']
Moo was the worst thing that happened to both the NPO and the NpO.
[/quote]

You're being a little over-dramatatic I think. Moo wasn't a terrible leader, he made a few poor choices, but he wasn't a terrible leader. (and he's a heck of a nice guy) The worst thing that happened to NPO/NpO was LUE.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1310442501' post='2754697']
NPO spent months isolating Polaris, then decided that they wanted to prevent them being rolled after all. It's like dangling your brother over a pit of wolves and then eventually deciding to save him. Unfortunately for Polaris, the wolves got them. This is the only explanation which fits with the logs from De Profundis.
[/quote]

To be fair many others were working to isolate Polar from the moment the Unjust War ended. What NPO may have talked about and what they might have done with other alliances outside of Q is not what I can speak to. However, withing Q NPO was often alone in defending Polar. As ES kept doing things to tick people off across Planet Bob people within Q started dropping treaties with Polar. After the VE incident we decided we needed to send Polar a message and killed our treaty. When we informed Q I got two queries one was Moo asking why we had dropped the treaty and he did not seem happy. The second was from one of Spartas Kings, I dont recall whom, who asked what they should do with the treaty they held with Polar. I said they should whatever they wanted, that we had cancled because we hoped it would send a message to Polar and that we hoped things would get fixed and we could then re-sign. Spata then followed and cancled on Polar. After ES stepped down some within Q, TPF included, chilled to the idea of acting against Polar. At this point with TOP leading the charge the Citadel memebers of Q plus MCXA were still in a full court press on the issue and were joined from the outside by SF. At this point Q started to slip away from NPO as more and more they had to go from asking that Polar be left alone to demanding it. Things at this point were out of NPOs control and they had to make some hard choices. I agree with Crym when he says continued support to Polar would have cost NPO Q right then.

When the war planning began TPF was asked to be in on Polar something I refused. Honestly with ES gone I did not see the point of it all but, to many people wanted war and so we honored out treaties. At no point did NPO ever even suggest we cancel on Polar and often to be honest NPO was the one voice defending Polar. What Pacifica did outside of Q I can not say.

[Mogar]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1310486427' post='2754944']
When the war planning began TPF was asked to be in on Polar something I refused. Honestly with ES gone I did not see the point of it all but, to many people wanted war and so we honored out treaties. At no point did NPO ever even suggest we cancel on Polar and often to be honest NPO was the one voice defending Polar. What Pacifica did outside of Q I can not say.
[/quote]
I remember posting in our cancellation thread, I was disappointed in ourselves to be honest, Polaris was one of our closest allies besides Pacifica itself.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1310420180' post='2754543']
WUT was what i meant, Moldavi was GOONS last ditch shot at keeping themselves alive, I recall convos with Daemon banned member and Alastor hoping Moo would just accept it.
[/quote]

Not exactly what history records...

[i]On August 14 TrotskysRevenge responded publicly, along with several of the Imperial Officers(Including: Bakunin's Dream(Regent), Mary the Fantabulous(Officer of Internal Affairs), Afslavakistan(Hero of the Order), Koona (IO of Internal Affairs), Frawley(IO of Economic Affairs), and Z'ha'dum(IO of Media Affairs and Propaganda), to Moldavi's statement, announcing that he was reclaiming leadership of the Order and expelling Moldavi for treason against the NPO. It was later discovered that since the 9th, Moldavi had caused a rift between NPO and its ally GOONS over his "inability to work with banned leaders" (parts of the GOONS leadership having been banned from the CN forums shortly before - see Modgate).

Over the following day announcements of support were made for one leader or the other from numerous alliances in the cyberverse, most notably by GOONS in support of TrotskysRevenge and by NpO in support of Moldavi. Within the NPO itself TrotskysRevenge seemed to have support of the majority, perhaps due to his having control of the NPO offsite forum and the banning of Moldavi from same, an advantage that grew as Pacific nations supporting Moldavi slowly emigrated to join him in Polaris. [/i]

Additional note: \m/ also backed Moo, as did MCXA, TOP, TPF, Genmay, Mushroom Kingdom, IRON and NADC.

But let's assume that Moldavi had managed to seize control. NPO would have been racked by departures, more so than after the Moldavi Incident historically. It would have also likely meant war that August--I recall \m/ leadership pretty much expecting it, and it would have meant a massive WUT civil war, with alliances outside the WUT being pulled in as time dragged on.

End result? Would have depended entirely on the outcome of the war. Quite likely though that even if The Orders had won, the Karma War happens a year sooner. Perhaps I'm a top level government member in \m/ (or what's left of it) instead of Ragnarok. Maybe I'm a member of Karma working to help lead and organize it instead of Electron Sponge (no War of the Coalition or BLEU running amok after all), Doitzel (he doesn't leave NPO after all), or one of the other "characters" there. Maybe I'm Schatt.

Whatever the case, it's all highly speculative and entertaining in a way to discuss.

[Mogar]

they supported Moo in the thought he would have prevented the war (lol that worked out well), I think i chose my words poorly in my last two posts, the idea was that had Pacifica directly declared against UjP, it would have brought more people onto UjP side than on the Orders side.

[Crymson]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1310492292' post='2754974']
Whatever the case, it's all highly speculative and entertaining in a way to discuss.
[/quote]

For what it's worth, I can tell you that TOP's treaty with NPO probably would not have survived long with Ivan at NPO's helm. I think the guy gets altogether too much credit. He didn't really do very much for NPO.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1310486427' post='2754944']
To be fair many others were working to isolate Polar from the moment the Unjust War ended. What NPO may have talked about and what they might have done with other alliances outside of Q is not what I can speak to. However, withing Q NPO was often alone in defending Polar. As ES kept doing things to tick people off across Planet Bob people within Q started dropping treaties with Polar. After the VE incident we decided we needed to send Polar a message and killed our treaty. When we informed Q I got two queries one was Moo asking why we had dropped the treaty and he did not seem happy. The second was from one of Spartas Kings, I dont recall whom, who asked what they should do with the treaty they held with Polar. I said they should whatever they wanted, that we had cancled because we hoped it would send a message to Polar and that we hoped things would get fixed and we could then re-sign. Spata then followed and cancled on Polar. After ES stepped down some within Q, TPF included, chilled to the idea of acting against Polar. At this point with TOP leading the charge the Citadel memebers of Q plus MCXA were still in a full court press on the issue and were joined from the outside by SF. At this point Q started to slip away from NPO as more and more they had to go from asking that Polar be left alone to demanding it. Things at this point were out of NPOs control and they had to make some hard choices. I agree with Crym when he says continued support to Polar would have cost NPO Q right then.

When the war planning began TPF was asked to be in on Polar something I refused. Honestly with ES gone I did not see the point of it all but, to many people wanted war and so we honored out treaties. At no point did NPO ever even suggest we cancel on Polar and often to be honest NPO was the one voice defending Polar. What Pacifica did outside of Q I can not say.[/quote]

Remember that within the member alliances of Q, and those alliances that were their closest allies, there were literally hundreds of members that were former members of alliances that disbanded as a result of the Unjust War. Add to that the fact that there were Q members and close allies to Q members themselves that had surrendered to NpO and its allies during the Unjust War. That was not a crowd that was going to be satisfied with Electron Sponge leaving, and if NPO didn't want to come along for the ride they didn't care so long as they stayed out of the way. They wanted blood. Hell, I wanted blood. Too many of Sponge's former henchmen around NpO and too much opportunity for Sponge to return from his "vacation" once the heat died down. No, there [i]was[/i] going to be a war.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1310493711' post='2754989']
Remember that within the member alliances of Q, and those alliances that were their closest allies, there were literally hundreds of members that were former members of alliances that disbanded as a result of the Unjust War. Add to that the fact that there were Q members and close allies to Q members themselves that had surrendered to NpO and its allies during the Unjust War. That was not a crowd that was going to be satisfied with Electron Sponge leaving, and if NPO didn't want to come along for the ride they didn't care so long as they stayed out of the way. They wanted blood. Hell, I wanted blood. Too many of Sponge's former henchmen around NpO and too much opportunity for Sponge to return from his "vacation" once the heat died down. No, there [i]was[/i] going to be a war.
[/quote]

The return of ES when the heat died down was what really put it over for people on the fence. This was a concern TPF had as well. Up until he left and from the day the Unjust War ended I had been working with others to cause dissention between NpOs coalition members, I do not think anyone in TPF beyond Slayer was aware of this however and certainly nobody in Q. When Grub came into power in my opinion Polar had been weakened strategically enough that I supported giving him a chance, I even considered resigning with Polar at that point. I know this would have caused some chaos in Q so though about giving it some time first. Others saw this as a chance for revenge and that is indeed what happened. The ironic part is I like ES, he just posed a threat to TPF so that is how I viewed him.

What is ironic is Polar seemed to think the entire thing was an NPO plot and it was NPO who took the heat for it all. If NPO had indeed been the the force driving to take out Polar then most likely they would have not suffered the decline in influence in Q that they did in being forced into giving up defending them.

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]I'd just like to say that the "Moldavi Rebellion" is a misnomer. Ivan was the rightful Emperor of the NPO. It was Moo who was usurping.

Also, what would have happened? I can tell you that had Ivan not been ousted by Moo and his gang the NPO would not have lost its best members.[/color]

[Alterego]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1310515106' post='2755154']
Also, what would have happened? I can tell you that had Ivan not been ousted by Moo and his gang the NPO would not have lost its best members.[/color]
[/quote]
Is that why you left?

[Mogar]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1310527765' post='2755296']
Is that why you left?
[/quote]
that's why alot of people left Pacifica.

[WalkerNinja]

[quote name='Left_Behind' timestamp='1310427972' post='2754589']
I couldn't agree more.

[u]I am unsure if the UjW would have happened at all or if it would have went down the way it did[/u] so likely NoCB, Karma would never have happened since a fair amount of the NPO hate is based on grudges spanning those Wars. Yes there would have been a war or at least a few wars where people would line up to take a shot out of the Orders but I can't see them being much more then the normal wars of GW2 and 3.
[/quote]

I suppose you're referring to the implosion? I don't see how Ivan could have prevented GOONS from OOC attacking Bilrow to the degree that their entire coalition abandoned them.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1310433467' post='2754614']
You're absolutely wrong on this. The NPO did everything it could to protect Polar and prevent what came to be known as the War of the Coalition. Moo's decision to protect Polaris from the rest of Q after canceling the OoO cost the NPO a tremendous amount of political capital with its allies and its position as de-facto leader of the game's most powerful bloc, and it played a part in Q's gradual decline after the war. Moo paid a lot in his attempts to keep Polaris safe. His efforts only ended when it became clear that he'd need to choose between Q and Polar and lose one of them.

If not for the NPO, the WotC would have happened some time earlier.
[/quote]

I really wonder if we were dealing with a Sponge-Ivan-BlackAdder dynamic instead of a Sponge-Moo dynamic if the TOP/Polaris rivalry would even have actually emerged. I think NPO certainly would have fully entered the Unjust War rather than sitting it out, which would have put TOP in a slightly more precarious position when deciding whether or not to pull FOK's fat out of the fire. Refraining form intervening at that point would have spared TOP the ire of ES meaning that TOP never would have felt threatened by ES, and thus would not have formed the Continuum to check their waxing power.

I really think that the Moldavi Rebellion was one of the most significant crossroads in the game to date.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1310527765' post='2755296']
Is that why you left?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Eventually. Though I had some doubts about Moo's abilities for sometime, I passively stood by and did nothing. The only person to vocally support Ivan was Musso. Had the chance to do it again I wouldn't make that mistake.

But yes, they knew my sympathies were with Ivan, and also with ES (who gave me more information about what the NPO was doing than the IOs). They gradually purged all those who were no cronies. I was one of the first to go (if we're not counting the military exodus the was in the wake of Anthony's expulsion). The bled more as well. Lesser positions too, such as battalion lieutenants, were filled with incapable people. Two reasons for this. One, they didn't want people to ask questions, and lieutenants were prominent enough in the alliance that people might look to them, and if they asked questions, so would others. Secondly, the vanity of the IOs couldn't allow for others to outshine them, lest people see how mediocre that majority of them really were. The NPO was great at bleeding talent, almost rivaling GGA I'd say. Granted NPO has such an abundance that they'll never reach GGA level, but they lost a lot of good people. They realized that their work would never pay off. The only ones who got recognition and reward were Moo's cronies and their yes-men. It is no wonder the NPO fell as it did with that sort of management.[/color]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1310529483' post='2755314']
that's why alot of people left Pacifica.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You know nothing, yet you continue to talk as if you do. Even stranger, some people continue to listen to your inane rambling. How bizarre that is.[/color]

Edited July 13, 2011 by Rebel Virginia