R&R Announcement regarding UINE terms

[King Louis the II]

Classy movement RnR. Congrats.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1309480215' post='2745443']
UINE is lucky it was R&R they pissed off. After everything they had to put up with, most alliances would have done a lot worse for a lot longer.
[/quote]
Alright folks, wrap it up, go home. Hyperion has shut this one down with the "coulda been worse" deathkiss. Coulda been worse than forcing regime change at the point of a gun. NPO used viceroys while Sparta propped them up, so Hyperion knows.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Azaghul]

This is good to see.

I just have one point to make:
[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1309402236' post='2744670']
[B]What about that sovereignty?[/B]

A lot of people asked me about this so i might as well address it. I can be very plain about that, sovereignty is out of the window the minute someone surrenders. If you demand reps YOU decide how they should use their slots and thus trespass on their sovereignty, when you force someone to not reenter or aid any ally still at war you trespass on their sovereignty, when you decide someone has to get X amount of toptier nations out of peace mode you trespass on their sovereignty. In short, everything but complete white peace is trespassing on someones sovereignty.
[/quote]
While this is true, there is an important distinction to make between infringing on an alliance's sovereignty over their nations and sovereignty over the community and their internal politics.

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='Jon the Warlord' timestamp='1309452400' post='2745113']
Funny, how the people that complained over the terms are now complaining over the release of them.

Trolls gonna troll, I guess.
[/quote]
Or still think that they shouldn't have been given in the first place.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1309488904' post='2745556']
Alright folks, wrap it up, go home. Hyperion has shut this one down with the "coulda been worse" deathkiss. Coulda been worse than forcing regime change at the point of a gun. NPO used viceroys while Sparta propped them up, so Hyperion knows.
[/quote]
Hey, I'm just saying people have been killed a lot harder for a lot less. R&R is a lot more patient and compassionate than I personally would have been. If UINE caused me as much a headache as they caused ego, they'd have gotten a lot worse than a wake up call and mercifully repealed terms.

If you take anything away from this Schatt, it's that R&R is a better group of people than most of us.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1309508315' post='2745810']
Hey, I'm just saying people have been killed a lot harder for a lot less. R&R is a lot more patient and compassionate than I personally would have been. If UINE caused me as much a headache as they caused ego, they'd have gotten a lot worse than a wake up call and mercifully repealed terms.

If you take anything away from this Schatt, it's that R&R is a better group of people than most of us.
[/quote]

Where does the headache come from 18m of missed reparations five months ago? The nation hit would've more than rebuilt, UINE had been decimated in a war and so had other things to think about. Personally, I'd have just sacked it off instead of running around in circles chasing down such a small amount, nevermind attacking the entire alliance then forcing those !@#$@#$ ridiculous terms on them.

[MinuteVariance]

[quote name='AmbroseIV' timestamp='1309447265' post='2745051']
In my eyes the priority wasn't to help you, it was to resolve the entire situation for AiD
[/quote]

I posted at the start of the war here offering to pay all UINEs reps personally and admitting UINE was at fault. Many of UINE's members came to you and admitted we were at fault throughout the whole thing. We all offered to pay reps in excess of the original amount. You're objectives clearly went beyond those stated above.

And EgoFreaky, I cbf quoting your hypocritical paragraphs of contradictory rubbish - but suffice it to say that by asking us to do anything more than fight or pay, you went beyond what you state in your posts here. You sought to change us. You sought to do so over and above the removal of our leader and the payment of reps. You can't go back on what you have already done by 'releasing' us.

You are right about one thing though - I don't speak for UINE. I speak for me personally. You missed the opportunities my colleagues and I offered to stand on any kind of moral high ground some weeks ago. So I'm calling you on your bs. Stand up and be seen, you despicable, backpedalling hypocrites.

I'll finish by quoting myself in a much more conciliatory frame of mind way back at the start of the war:

[quote name='MinuteVariance' timestamp='1307352976' post='2725286']
Up front I'd like to apologise to my friends in UINE for what I am about to say by way of an apology to RnR and the AiD guys who are the real injured party here. Basically someone needs to eat a little !@#$, and here I believe it is UINE, which is us - which might as well be me.

Like most of UINE I have been largely inactive since the last war when we copped a real hiding. See I got bored because as MoF I found it impossible to get any aid (of any kind be it tech deal, rebuilding aid or whatever) flowing in the alliance at all without getting Keve to personally PM the bank in question for the money. Nothing in UINE works without Keve, so if Keve is on holiday - the bus aint making that next stop. Actually that's unfair. There are a number of things that do work but none of them are positive. Also, please don't discount the fact that I may indeed be grossly incompetant.

So this whole thing is not a surprise to me.

However, I am still a member of UINE and largely they are a nice bunch of guys with cool ideas like 'stick up for your allies' and 'why have a war chest?' and 'let's have a laugh' and 'fight like a man!' and 'nukes are too expensive to shoot!'. Infact if you repeat those statements over and over for a few minutes, you will have a pretty good understanding of what it is like to be in UINE.

Anyway, moving on.

I'd like to apologise to RnR for the inability of UINE to pay the reps. As an individual citizen of planet Bob and a current member of UINE, I am very upset to find that this wrong doing has occured and more upset to find that, by proxy, I have been a part of it. Also I guess I am still MoF at the moment even though I resigned and went inactive weeks ago...but I still have the mask and everything and no one has replaced me, so allow me to add that (incredible) weight to the apology. As MoF I am truly sorry for our inability to get this small amount of money (even though based on our ability to shift aid, it is significant proportionally) to you guys in anything that even remotely resembles a reasonable amount of time.

UINE are not bad guys at all, they are infact almost all awesome guys that mean no harm. They are just mostly inactive guys nowadays that don't pay attention (myself included) and the guys with the ability to pay reps generally either don't care or don't care to listen to aid requests.

So, now while I still retain membership (as I said these guys are quite inactive so I probably have a little while), I feel the desire to repay those within UINE I have potentially insulted and annoyed with my honest and candid post, by offering to accept the burden of these reps soley upon my shoulders in whatever form RnR sees fit.

I have 5 slots free right now and will send an amount you decree starting as soon as I get the communication in either tech or money to your desired targets.

Please allow me to do this small service to UINE by helping to resolve this issue. There is more at stake here than just mere money - that is why I am giving you the reality of the situation as I see it - and I agree you have just cause to feel severely wronged and insulted. Again, my apology for that.

Oh yes and you may have guess I haven't discussed this with anyone at UINE - but tbh I am not convinced they can do any better than what has been done before. Wheras myself, for all my incompetance, political disatrousness and certainly interesting spelling and grammar, I can trust with this simple task.
[/quote]

Edited July 1, 2011 by MinuteVariance

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1309494287' post='2745633']
This is good to see.

I just have one point to make:

While this is true, there is an important distinction to make between infringing on an alliance's sovereignty over their nations and sovereignty over the community and their internal politics.
[/quote]

interesting point you bring up here.

I disagree, yes internal community for sure, i would not meddle in what kind of members an alliance allows, or what theme their alliance has, that's something for each alliance to manage on their own. Alliance politics however have IC effects and if their politics conflict with things that have to be done i have no problem doing so.

I like to make things more extreme in examples because extremes have less gray area, so let's do a hypothetical.

Your alliance has a protectorate, a small bunch of friendly people. Then an alliance comes and makes a policy that every new member has to attack them as right of passage. Of course this leads to discussions and after a while they are still unwilling to fix it. You go to war with them and then what? After all that you are gonna tell me you're not gonna have them remove that policy and fix the problem?

Like i said, this is an extreme, our case was a bit less black and white but the general idea was the same, there was something in their political structure that dragged a clear cut case which should have taken maybe a week to fix out for 6 months. So yeah we did not attack without any idea about an end, we made them change stuff so we where sure we could close this issue once and for all. Was it a popular thing to do? Nope. Was there another way to go? Sure, most of them probably worse for them then this though. So again, being put in the same situation again, i would again do the exact same thing. Maybe adjust it a little bit here and there, given i know more now then ad the start of this of course but overall the plan to solve it would not change that much. If that makes us a bad alliance, me a bad person and us hegemonic.. so be it, the problem is fixed we accomplished our goal and thats all i really care about frankly.

[quote name='MinuteVariance' timestamp='1309517918' post='2745857']
I posted at the start of the war here offering to pay all UINEs reps personally and admitting UINE was at fault. Many of UINE's members came to you and admitted we were at fault throughout the whole thing. We all offered to pay reps in excess of the original amount. You're objectives clearly went beyond those stated above.

And EgoFreaky, I cbf quoting your hypocritical paragraphs of contradictory rubbish - but suffice it to say that by asking us to do anything more than fight or pay, you went beyond what you state in your posts here. You sought to change us. You sought to do so over and above the removal of our leader and the payment of reps. You can't go back on what you have already done by 'releasing' us.

You are right about one thing though - I don't speak for UINE. I speak for me personally. You missed the opportunities my colleagues and I offered to stand on any kind of moral high ground some weeks ago. So I'm calling you on your bs. Stand up and be seen, you despicable, backpedalling hypocrites.

I'll finish by quoting myself in a much more conciliatory frame of mind way back at the start of the war:
[/quote]

Euhm noone ever offered reps in excess of the original amount, except for Reghar who decided it was fair to throw in an extra 3M that wasn't accepted because of inactivity earlier down the road (something i thought was very classy of him).

You still don't get it do you? Let me try again.. After six months dozens of deals and all together DAYS of discussions and negotiations with many many UINE members and gov, what did we get when we attacked? A whole lot of "I was not aware of this", it sounds almost impossible but if thats true then everyone that said that was obviously not paying attention. Changing you was not a goal, honestly i can't be bothered to care if you change everything back to how it was tomorrow. The GOAL was to settle this matter once and for all. And after all we been through on this issue, people seemed to not even know of it's existence.. tell me, how can people learn if they don't pay attention? And if people don't learn, why would it have ended any different this time then the last dozen times we came to an agreement?

True or False: We got the attention of at least 90% of your alliance.

If you learn from the experience, well i hope so but thats up to UINE not us and i wont lose any sleep over it, at least it gave us enough attention from UINE to get this settled once and for all. So all i said was that I [b]HOPE[/b] you learned anything from it, and it leaves the [b]POSSIBILITY[/b] for UINE to make changes. Not that our goal was to help you out.

/me stands up to be seen

So now i'm up here, let me make something clear again for you and anyone interested.

[i]Thank[/i] you [i]very much[/i] that UINE [i]offered[/i] us a [i]chance[/i] to [i]take[/i] the moral high ground several weeks ago...

Again i try to make it clear. WE. DO. NOT. CARE. ABOUT. THE. MORAL. HIGH. GROUND. And when we do, we don't need UINE to give us an opportunity to do so.. Most people around here can attest to the fact that we're usually a relax and laid back alliance. Are we some kind of angels? Hell no, we're pretty much the same as most alliances around here, we get angry, we get frustrated and we're capable of hate. But usually when things don't go our way we crop up those feelings keep them internal and be nice about it. We have a lot of patience. However it's [b]NOT[/b] without limits. When someone pushes and pushes us one day that patience runs out, we leave the moral high ground and know what you get? All that bottled up frustration and anger in one big giant ball of !@#$ coming your way. That's the price to pay when pushing patience beyond it's limits. When we decided enough was enough and we went to war we abandoned the moral high ground and exchanged it for closure and payment.

"but suffice it to say that by asking us to do anything more than fight or pay", well that was the first thing we did... yet no payment.. then we wanted to fight.. how long before the cries? 10 minutes after our DoW?

No.. you say it now and words are nice, but UINE had no desire to pay, and only got a desire to pay because they had even less of a desire for a fight (too little to late). What your real desire was, was sticking your head in the sand and wonder why it wasn't all just shoved under the table and why we didn't just walk away from it.

Anyway, if you now still don't get the point.. well i guess you'll never get it then. Luckily the rest of UINE seems to have taken the smart approach, take your loss, lick your wounds and move on. Cause honestly, i don't see what you're trying to accomplish.
You want to show people how bad we are? Okay.. i never denied it.
You are pointing out to people how we weren't trying to help UINE? Well i stated as much several times, it's not our job to help you, nor has anyone asked us to.
If you want to make UINE appear as an innocent bystander, you're too late for that.
If you want to make us look bad, too late for that too, we already did that ourselves, a sacrifice worth it

So please enlighten me of what your trying to accomplish, perhaps i can help. Cause so far i just see a lot of missing each and every single point in your posts.

[MinuteVariance]

Can I get a tl:dr? Sorry it's just the first sentance was a bit boring.

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='MinuteVariance' timestamp='1309527078' post='2745916']
Can I get a tl:dr? Sorry it's just the first sentance was a bit boring.
[/quote]

No u

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1309527804' post='2745924']
No u
[/quote]

You really are starting compete with Schatt for most WOTs

[AmbroseIV]

[quote name='MinuteVariance' timestamp='1309517918' post='2745857']
I posted at the start of the war here offering to pay all UINEs reps personally and admitting UINE was at fault. Many of UINE's members came to you and admitted we were at fault throughout the whole thing. We all offered to pay reps in excess of the original amount. You're objectives clearly went beyond those stated above.

And EgoFreaky, I cbf quoting your hypocritical paragraphs of contradictory rubbish - but suffice it to say that by asking us to do anything more than fight or pay, you went beyond what you state in your posts here. You sought to change us. You sought to do so over and above the removal of our leader and the payment of reps. You can't go back on what you have already done by 'releasing' us.

You are right about one thing though - I don't speak for UINE. I speak for me personally. You missed the opportunities my colleagues and I offered to stand on any kind of moral high ground some weeks ago. So I'm calling you on your bs. Stand up and be seen, you despicable, backpedalling hypocrites.

I'll finish by quoting myself in a much more conciliatory frame of mind way back at the start of the war:
[/quote]

...actually, I'll interrupt and quote myself too (you've made it a credible thing to do):

[quote name='AmbroseIV' timestamp='1309447265' post='2745051']
If it was such an unpalatable outcome, you needed to fight for something when you had a say - kudos for having some balls, but it's little too late in this thread.
[/quote]

Beyond that, you really don't get the point - the reps weren't the issue. They prolonged everything, but they weren't the issue. It was UINE's conduct throughout the entire incident: One nation raided, reps were settled; four more nations raided, reps were settled; reps were rescinded and AiD was threatened into selling tech to UINE; R&R became involved, etc... 6 months later, you were staring down the barrel. This was about ensuring things were resolved once and for all.

And if you think you didn't deserve to be held accountable at some stage, it's beyond naive - it's just stupid. As someone who was in AiD government for the majority of this incident, I find it [i]damn[/i] insulting that after UINE used their relative size and influence to attack and bully us (and spend another 6 months jerking it - to reuse your imagery Minute), you're now spewing vitriol and playing the indignant victim of some wacky social experiment in which R&R wanted to "change" you.

I was joking when I called you Keve before, but now I'm not so sure. That's an image you want to purvey - ask anyone.


[quote name='MinuteVariance' timestamp='1309527078' post='2745916']
Can I get a tl:dr? Sorry it's just the first sentance was a bit boring.
[/quote]
You're lucky - if everyone had that attitude then no-one would've read your inane ramblings.

Also, no-one talks to my man like that. You watch yourself

Edited July 1, 2011 by AmbroseIV

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1309528180' post='2745928']
You really are starting compete with Schatt for most WOTs
[/quote]

When R&R was working on XX there where of course some doubts within SF (2 blocs and all that), I typed a big ass WOT and Xiphosis replied to it with something along the lines of: "Wow Ego, i've never seen you talk so much about anything before and somehow it all makes sense to me".

So i'll respond to you like i did to him:

Don't worry, I only make WOT's when i feel i have something to say and when i care about the subject, both don't happen often.

So Schatt is safe

Edit:

[quote name='AmbroseIV' timestamp='1309528636' post='2745930']

Also, no-one talks to my man like that. You watch yourself
[/quote]


Thanks honey, watch it people, mah baby knows how to handle firearms

Edited July 1, 2011 by EgoFreaky

[MinuteVariance]

I made my point, I won't labour it. UINE were at fault - not debating that. I offered to fix it, as did many of my colleagues. You chose to do what you chose to do. Now you feel you have to spend a lot of time justifying it to a nobody from the backwaters of planet Bobs most unfashionable district. I think, by doing so, you assign my opinion greater credibility.

On second thoughts....you have written an awful lot of words. Maybe you have a point? I think probably the ones who write more words win. In the end, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Oh, and if you post last, that will clinch it for sure.

Edit: adding more words, felt like I should make more effort.

Edited July 1, 2011 by MinuteVariance

[Beauty]

Thats a very kind move RnR , Definitely given me even more respect for you guys

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='MinuteVariance' timestamp='1309531573' post='2745953']
I made my point, I won't labour it. UINE were at fault - not debating that. I offered to fix it, as did many of my colleagues. You chose to do what you chose to do. Now you feel you have to spend a lot of time justifying it to a nobody from the backwaters of planet Bobs most unfashionable district. I think, by doing so, you assign my opinion greater credibility.

On second thoughts....you have written an awful lot of words. Maybe you have a point? I think probably the ones who write more words win. In the end, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Oh, and if you post last, that will clinch it for sure.

Edit: adding more words, felt like I should make more effort.
[/quote]


Actually, it's not so much i feel the need to justify anything cause i don't really. We did what was done, people can either agree or disagree it doesn't matter all that much since I don't want or even can change it.

No i basically just like a good argument and you're pretty much the only one commenting and i happen to disagree with what you say. The way it goes is you say something I respond, you respond, i respond first one to get bored leaves the topic discussion over, welcome to the OWF

And you're not a nobody! You're a deputy minister of UINE! Be proud man.

[Lukapaka]

I like this announcement

o/ Ego
o/ R&R
[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1309404148' post='2744723']
It's a shame I don't kiss a person's ass for revoking something they never should have done to begin with, or I'd hop on the "good show" bandwagon.

Get over yourselves.
[/quote]

Hahaha, Schattenmann! do you just read the replies?

[Bob Janova]

Good to see you acknowledging that those terms were a mistake and rescinding them.

[theArrowheadian]

Why is this topic still alive and better question why do so many people actually care enough for 5 pages worth?

[Jtkode]

Nice to see, I hope UINE can move forward and do great things after this.

[Simms]

Why Arrow isn't it obvious people like Schat seem to think we care about their opinions when we honestly could care less. They seem to think we're trying to justify it to them. And Bob funny but I don't see us saying we regret these terms at all we stand by them still.

[Alex987]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1309510501' post='2745815']
Where does the headache come from 18m of missed reparations five months ago? The nation hit would've more than rebuilt, UINE had been decimated in a war and so had other things to think about. Personally, I'd have just sacked it off instead of running around in circles chasing down such a small amount, nevermind attacking the entire alliance then forcing those !@#$@#$ ridiculous terms on them.
[/quote]

O rly? And where were you standing up for YOUR beliefs when on the war announcement thread everybody was saying "Good show R&R, the only real CB I've seen in the past X years." Guess you pick and choose what bandwagons to hop on?

Edited July 2, 2011 by Alex987

[Hereno]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1309433478' post='2744963']
*snipped for the sake of scrolling*
[/quote]

The point I was trying to make was that the absence of Keve from our planet makes the rescinding of the term completely useless.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1309557872' post='2746234']
Good to see you acknowledging that those terms were a mistake and rescinding them.
[/quote]

They haven't acknowledged that they made a mistake. What announcement did you read?

[quote name='Simms' timestamp='1309561772' post='2746265']
Why Arrow isn't it obvious people like Schat seem to think we care about their opinions when we honestly could care less. They seem to think we're trying to justify it to them. And Bob funny but I don't see us saying we regret these terms at all we stand by them still.
[/quote]

If you don't care about anyone's opinions, then why post an essay in the OP?

Think about it for a while and get back to me when you're ready.

[quote name='Alex987' timestamp='1309565101' post='2746295']
O rly? And where were you standing up for YOUR beliefs when on the war announcement thread everybody was saying "Good show R&R, the only real CB I've seen in the past X years." Guess you pick and choose what bandwagons to hop on?
[/quote]

Yeah, what an !@#$%^& he is for jumping onto the bandwagon of not wanting his alliance's leader ousted by a foreign party over pocket change. At this point I'm convinced you really don't believe what you're posting. Come on, nobody is [i]that[/i] stupid.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1309402236' post='2744670']
I can be very plain about that, sovereignty is out of the window the minute someone surrenders. If you demand reps YOU decide how they should use their slots and thus trespass on their sovereignty, when you force someone to not reenter or aid any ally still at war you trespass on their sovereignty, when you decide someone has to get X amount of toptier nations out of peace mode you trespass on their sovereignty. In short, everything but complete white peace is trespassing on someones sovereignty.
[/quote]
Yay, someone gets it: surrendered alliances aren't sovereign, that's what surrender means.

I still don't think the government ban was a good idea, but at least it wasn't permanent.

[Simms]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1309566624' post='2746316']

If you don't care about anyone's opinions, then why post an essay in the OP?

Think about it for a while and get back to me when you're ready.
[/quote]

Funny since I was referring to him thinking we're trying to justify ourselves and that's way this is an alliance announcement we're announcing something.