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The Evolution of "Politics"


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With the close of the most recent conflict (RnR-UINE) once again there seems to be the growing argument over terms, commentary from uninformed parties and all the usual good things which mark that the 'verse political climate is returning to normal. Pandora's Box / Doomhouse / whatever has demonstrated having undeniable military control of the current era we find ourselves in, everyone is hating the correct people in the correct amounts, we've had a feel good war where one person (Keve) was able to be lambasted by the public and called all sorts of fun things. The sun is shining, rain is right, etc.

With this also comes the usual cry for caution. The peace terms accepted by UINE have served to provide materials for the latest soap boxing. More than one person has raised concern about how terrible the terms are, how wrong it is to do such-and-such and other fun commentary. I would ask this - why does anyone care if an alliance decides to act in a completely draconian manner? We've seen what happens to those alliances that do - they get burned to the ground when public opinions turns against them and reaches a critical point. If another alliance wants to walk down that road, let them. They know what they're doing. It's not for us to warn them. If the Mushroom Kingdom, RnR, Sparta or whoever wants to go over to the proverbial dark side they're free to do so and deal with the hell that follows. Let them - it's more amusing that way and a much more effective lesson in the long term. For a case-in-point I don't believe we'll be seeing Ramirus ever returning to pull the kinds of stunts he did during the GRE-IRON-DAWN conflict.

For those who take the "I said nothing, and then they came for me" path consider this - national rulers have a certain knack for being able to escape personal death. You cannot be killed, cannot be taken prisoner and will always be able to rally support again. Let them come for you, over and over. At the end of the day, the persecutors tend to become the persecuted. The cycle will continue, always. To play upon the battle cry from the last major war, everything must die, but something will live. Rest assured of that.

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[quote name='Augustus Autumn' timestamp='1307625447' post='2727865']
If the Mushroom Kingdom... wants to go over to the proverbial dark side they're free to do so and deal with the hell that follows. Let them - it's more amusing that way and a much more effective lesson in the long term.
[/quote]

Several people in MK spoke out against the terms that R&R gave UINE, but thanks for trying.

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What R&R did was bad, but what MK did was just as bad. Randomly initiating an offensive war and then demanding reparations from the defeated defensive nation.

Actually, if you randomly invade someone, beat them into the ground and then demand money, isn't that more extortion than reparation?

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[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307656814' post='2728141']
Several people in MK spoke out against the terms that R&R gave UINE, but thanks for trying.
[/quote]
I was waiting for the "But look! MK is good people too!" charade based on that thread. Didn't expect it so soon though.

Speaking out against one relatively tiny violation does not at all absolve you of the massive crimes you have committed, but nice try.

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[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307656814' post='2728141']
Several people in MK spoke out against the terms that R&R gave UINE, but thanks for trying.
[/quote]

I'm not attempting a value judgement - I think my comment is more telling considering the alliance affiliation you're displaying right now as well as the signature image you're showing to the world. There's nothing wrong with being the bad guy. Personally, I always enjoyed that element. As for what persons within the Mushroom Kingdom did or did not do in reference to the RnR-UINE incident, that's irrelevant to what I've raised here. But thanks for trying.

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1307657087' post='2728148']
Yeah, MK is a strong supporter of R&R!
[/quote]

Your contribution to the discourse has been noted.

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1307657914' post='2728164']
What R&R did was bad, but what MK did was just as bad. Randomly initiating an offensive war and then demanding reparations from the defeated defensive nation.

Actually, if you randomly invade someone, beat them into the ground and then demand money, isn't that more extortion than reparation?
[/quote]

And the third in a string, which leads me to beleive that I've been unclear. Were the intent behind my raising the subject to directly address the RnR-UINE conflict and however the Mushroom Kingdom was involved (it wasn't, unless I missed something) then I would have indicated as much in the original statement. Allow me to rephrase.

[i]If an alliance wants to engage in actions which will foment revenge, grudges, anger and potentially its downfall and seems entirely happy to continue engaging in said actions, let them. Waving your arms, yelling and crying will not deter them. Allow them to be unjust since these alliances will continue to do so anyway. Everything cycles around in the end.[/i]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1307658827' post='2728177']
I was waiting for the "But look! MK is good people too!" charade based on that thread. Didn't expect it so soon though.

Speaking out against one relatively tiny violation does not at all absolve you of the massive crimes you have committed, but nice try.
[/quote]

While being inflammatory, HoT actually seems to get what I'm trying to get across here.

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This "discourse" matches its title in that it egregiously lacks depth and details. Your one claim about the actual "evolution" of politics on Bob is that events are cyclical, which really wouldn't constitute an evolution at all, since every step in the process would be a reversion as well as a progression. Additionally, your claim that CN politics are cyclical is ill-founded, since the constant transfers of power your theory would require simply haven't happened; political control in the modern CN political era has changed hands exactly once, which does not constitute a cycle at all.

Also, you warn the "soap-boxers" to be less outspoken because the alliances they speak out against will ultimately have public opinion turn on them. This ignores the fact that the "soap-boxers" are often the ones who determine public opinion and can also be used as a gauge of it.

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[quote]If an alliance wants to engage in actions which will foment revenge, grudges, anger and potentially its downfall and seems entirely happy to continue engaging in said actions, let them. Waving your arms, yelling and crying will [b]not deter them[/b]. [b]Allow them [/b]to be unjust since these alliances will continue to do so anyway. Everything cycles around in the end.[/quote]

How can we not deter them and at the same time be in a position to allow them to be unjust?

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I think this assumes that the terms given were bad, so I can't see anything productive coming from this discussion.

36 million in reps in line with only 18 mill more than the amount actually owed before the war by the offending party, and a term that all of UINE claims it's already doing on its own (though not so convincingly over the past 6 months...) in a war that nearly everyone in and outside of UINE agrees is completely justified...

in comparison to an exorbitant amount of reps for a war with no actual reason at all?

eh...

Edited by IYIyTh
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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1307658827' post='2728177']
I was waiting for the "But look! MK is good people too!" charade based on that thread. Didn't expect it so soon though.

Speaking out against one relatively tiny violation does not at all absolve you of the massive crimes you have committed, but nice try.
[/quote]

For someone who likes the "you can't have morals, look at what you've done!" argument, you seem to forget that you were NPO's and TPF's errand boy and personal spokesman when they were at the height of their power and performing some of the most heinous acts Planet Bob has ever seen. So please forgive me for speaking out against things that I think are wrong in spite of the fact that my alliance has declared wars and collected reparations. I'll come back when our résumé includes [OOC]crossing the IC/OOC line by essentially banning players from the game[/OOC], installing viceroys, disbanding alliances, and using people's personal lives as CBs.

Edited by Mathias
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I like how we're comparing the way MK treats it's arch enemy to the way R&R treats some random bad alliance who messed up a tech raid. What makes that even dumber is that MK treated NPO quite a bit better IMO, seeing as they neglected to dethrone their leader and alter their charter.

Edited for clarity

Edited by Hereno
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[quote name='Augustus Autumn' timestamp='1307661394' post='2728220']
I'm not attempting a value judgement - I think my comment is more telling considering the alliance affiliation you're displaying right now as well as the signature image you're showing to the world. There's nothing wrong with being the bad guy. Personally, I always enjoyed that element. As for what persons within the Mushroom Kingdom did or did not do in reference to the RnR-UINE incident, that's irrelevant to what I've raised here. But thanks for trying.[/quote]
The problem is you use UINE in your example while emphasizing MK:

[quote name='Augustus Autumn' timestamp='1307625447' post='2727865']With the close of the most recent conflict (RnR-UINE) once again there seems to be the growing argument over terms, commentary from uninformed parties and all the usual good things which mark that the 'verse political climate is returning to normal. Pandora's Box / [b]Doomhouse[/b] / whatever has demonstrated having undeniable military control of the current era we find ourselves in, everyone is hating the correct people in the correct amounts, we've had a feel good war where one person (Keve) was able to be lambasted by the public and called all sorts of fun things. The sun is shining, rain is right, etc.

...If the [b]Mushroom Kingdom[/b], RnR, Sparta or whoever wants to go over to the proverbial dark side they're free to do so and deal with the hell that follows.
[/quote]
You mention R&R only once and don't even mention XX, which isn't any less "hegemonic" than PB/DH.

A lot of people overestimate MK's political influence and responsibility for events. For example most people primarily blame MK for the preempt when it was Roquentin's idea.

Edited by Azaghul
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[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1307662516' post='2728232']
This "discourse" matches its title in that it egregiously lacks depth and details. Your one claim about the actual "evolution" of politics on Bob is that events are cyclical, which really wouldn't constitute an evolution at all, since every step in the process would be a reversion as well as a progression. Additionally, your claim that CN politics are cyclical is ill-founded, since the constant transfers of power your theory would require simply haven't happened; political control in the modern CN political era has changed hands exactly once, which does not constitute a cycle at all.

Also, you warn the "soap-boxers" to be less outspoken because the alliances they speak out against will ultimately have public opinion turn on them. This ignores the fact that the "soap-boxers" are often the ones who determine public opinion and can also be used as a gauge of it.
[/quote]

I would argue that politics, such as they are, in the 'verse follow a very simple cycle - an alliance climbs to the top only to be knocked down by another alliance climbing to the top, thus the alliance once more resumes the climb. The only think which changes are the names of those in power at any given time, not the actions of all associated.

In regards to the soap-boxing, there's a time and place for it. Post-WotC everyone saw the value of a group of people gathering, hammering on the same point over and over again until it changed public opinion. People also forget that it took timing as well as a long period of investment for that effect to pay off (Vox Populi). Since then the proverbial soap boxing comes screaming to the surface the second any war has begun, finished, is being planned or whatever. The endless comparisons of one evil to another seconds after someone does something which might be considered a bad idea by someone somewhere are premature at best and damaging to that person's cause at the worst. I'm advising that it might be time to simply let things play out rather than constantly be up in the faces of alliances whom the soap-boxer perceives as doing something wrong.

[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1307662613' post='2728234']
UINE accepted, if its cool in their book it should be cool in ours
[/quote]

Again, this isn't a commentary on the RnR-UINE war. Thanks anyway.

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1307662719' post='2728235']
How can we not deter them and at the same time be in a position to allow them to be unjust?
[/quote]

By doing nothing.

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307663213' post='2728240']
For someone who likes the "you can't have morals, look at what you've done!" argument, you seem to forget that you were NPO's and TPF's errand boy and personal spokesman when they were at the height of their power and performing some of the most heinous acts Planet Bob has ever seen. So please forgive me for speaking out against things that I think are wrong in spite of the fact that my alliance has declared wars and collected reparations. I'll come back when our résumé includes [OOC]crossing the IC/OOC line by essentially banning players from the game[/OOC], installing viceroys, disbanding alliances, and using people's personal lives as CBs.
[/quote]

Mathias, like HoT, now appears to understand as well what the effects are of simply allowing alliances acting improperly. Thank you for demonstrating, gentlemen. Of course, the return to the "X is alright because Y was far worse" formula is a little distressing but I'll let it slide for the sake of the comedic value.

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1307663286' post='2728241']
I like how we're comparing the way MK treats it's arch enemy to the way R&R treats some random bad alliance who messed up a tech raid. What makes that even dumber is that MK treated NPO quite a bit better IMO, seeing as they neglected to dethrone their leader and alter their charter.[/quote]

The bickering is a fun example of the degredation of alliance politics to watch, though.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1307663954' post='2728247']
The problem is you use UINE in your example while emphasizing MK:

You mention R&R only once and don't even mention XX, which isn't any less "hegemonic" than PB/DH.
[/quote]

If there is any emphasis, it's perceived. I picked the first alliances / blocs which came to mind as well as the most recent event (read: I don't hang out in the cool IRC channels and have no contact with the behind-the-scenes goings-on). Also, thank you but you won't find the "H"-word being used here nor is that sad repeated characterization at all relevant. Cheers.

Also, what is XX supposed to be?

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[quote name='Augustus Autumn' timestamp='1307625447' post='2727865']
With this also comes the usual cry for caution. The peace terms accepted by UINE have served to provide materials for the latest soap boxing. More than one person has raised concern about how terrible the terms are, how wrong it is to do such-and-such and other fun commentary. I would ask this - why does anyone care if an alliance decides to act in a completely draconian manner? We've seen what happens to those alliances that do - they get burned to the ground when public opinions turns against them and reaches a critical point. [b]If another alliance wants to walk down that road, let them.[/b] They know what they're doing. It's not for us to warn them. If the Mushroom Kingdom, RnR, Sparta or whoever wants to go over to the proverbial dark side they're free to do so and deal with the hell that follows. Let them - it's more amusing that way and a much more effective lesson in the long term. For a case-in-point I don't believe we'll be seeing Ramirus ever returning to pull the kinds of stunts he did during the GRE-IRON-DAWN conflict.
[/quote]

The commentators here are in fact "letting them" do what they want to do. They are just merely expressing their opinion. Will their disagreements with the UINE terms actually have any sort of serious consequences for RnR? I doubt it. People here have the desire to put forward their thoughts despite not being able to "do anything about it" and its always been this way. Perhaps someday this incident will be quoted in some overly verbose declaration of war but have absolutely nothing to do with the issues at hand.

This whole thing is like !@#$@#$ amateur hour at the global despots club. I don't know why people care about it one way or the other.

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[quote name='Henry' timestamp='1307664249' post='2728252']
The commentators here are in fact "letting them" do what they want to do. They are just merely expressing their opinion. Will their disagreements with the UINE terms actually have any sort of serious consequences for RnR? I doubt it. People here have the desire to put forward their thoughts despite not being able to "do anything about it" and its always been this way. Perhaps someday this incident will be quoted in some overly verbose declaration of war but have absolutely nothing to do with the issues at hand.

This whole thing is like !@#$@#$ amateur hour at the global despots club. I don't know why people care about it one way or the other.
[/quote]

It's something to do, I suspect. Which, incidentally, works to help keep whatever power structure is presently in place exactly where it is. Bread and circuses, as it were. Not to say it's an artificially created situation, but it's certainly not a bad thing.

In regards to my "let them" comment, the soap-boxing which goes on amounts to a mother standing on her doorstep yelling at her children to wear their hats. They might not wear those hats, but they'll remember her words when it gets cold out. If she'd let them off without attempting the warning they may very well not be as mindful. It's a poor comparison, but I hope you get where I'm going with that.

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[quote name='Augustus Autumn' timestamp='1307664194' post='2728251']
If there is any emphasis, it's perceived. I picked the first alliances / blocs which came to mind as well as the most recent event (read: I don't hang out in the cool IRC channels and have no contact with the behind-the-scenes goings-on). Also, thank you but you won't find the "H"-word being used here nor is that sad repeated characterization at all relevant. Cheers.

Also, what is XX supposed to be?
[/quote]

XX is a bloc made up of R&R, Farkistan, MHA, and Sparta.

And I wasn't saying MK is ok because NPO was worse. I'm saying NPO was bad and MK isn't.

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[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1307668308' post='2728288']
God, the TC's passive aggressive replies are hilarious. If you have an issue with people replying, I suggest you don't make a topic.
[/quote]

everyone is passive aggressive/purely agressive now on a much greater extent that 3 years ago. Grudges have been induced further and further, and will continue to build as long as this game is around. Its something were all going to have to get used to.

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[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1307662792' post='2728237']
I think this assumes that the terms given were bad, so I can't see anything productive coming from this discussion.

36 million in reps in line with only 18 mill more than the amount actually owed before the war by the offending party, and a term that all of UINE claims it's already doing on its own (though not so convincingly over the past 6 months...) in a war that nearly everyone in and outside of UINE agrees is completely justified...

in comparison to an exorbitant amount of reps for a war with no actual reason at all?

eh...
[/quote]
[color="#9ACD32"]>implying that the primary complaint is in the reps portion of the UINE terms[/color]

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307663213' post='2728240']
For someone who likes the "you can't have morals, look at what you've done!" argument, you seem to forget that you were NPO's and TPF's errand boy and personal spokesman when they were at the height of their power and performing some of the most heinous acts Planet Bob has ever seen. So please forgive me for speaking out against things that I think are wrong in spite of the fact that my alliance has declared wars and collected reparations. I'll come back when our résumé includes , installing viceroys, disbanding alliances, and as CBs.
[/quote]
The grammar has a funny breakdown there at the end, but as everyone knows by now, the laws of the universe were altered during NPO's height in such a manner as to essentially render the possibility of a viceroy impossible, and as far as disbanding alliances goes, besides always being technically impossible since the beginning of time, alliances have also disbanded under the duress of war while MK and it's ilk have reigned supreme. Beginning as early as Karma, even.

Oh and as a fun little side note, I've never been allied to Pacifica, as much as people love to pretend that such a connection has or does exist. I like them, I'm friends with them, but we're not allies.

[OOC]
[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1307663213' post='2728240']
[OOC]crossing the IC/OOC line by essentially banning players from the game[/OOC], and using people's personal lives as CBs.
[/quote]
For the record, I have NEVER, in my entire time playing CN, supported the practice of EZI, and I was a strong critic of it before being a critic became the cool thing to do, while I was comfortably a part of the Old Hegemony, at it's height. As far as using personal lives as a CB, no, you guys don't, you just conduct attacks IRL, digging up personal information and smearing people's names in that context. Far worse than anything that it's even possible to do within the confines of a game. Not accusing you personally, but it's come out of your alliance and your corner of the web.[/OOC]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1307663286' post='2728241']
I like how we're comparing the way MK treats it's arch enemy to the way R&R treats some random bad alliance who messed up a tech raid. What makes that even dumber is that MK treated NPO quite a bit better IMO, seeing as they neglected to dethrone their leader and alter their charter.

Edited for clarity
[/quote]
You're right, MK is so kind and generous to only go so far as remove an entire chunk of the web from the political battlefield for upwards of a year, again, by requiring as terms, crippling bonus rounds of war and the same gigantic extortion that falls in line with their pattern of conduct.

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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1307670127' post='2728307']
You're right, MK is so kind and generous to only go so far as remove an entire chunk of the web from the political battlefield for upwards of a year, again, by requiring as terms, crippling bonus rounds of war and the same gigantic extortion that falls in line with their pattern of conduct.
[/quote]

I wish I had said that, it would have been a much more interesting post. All my humble little post said was that most of us would take a beat down over expulsion (and banning) of our leader from government and subsequent changing of our charter by another alliance. Better luck next time. :mellow:

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[quote name='Guffey' timestamp='1307669051' post='2728297']
everyone is passive aggressive/purely agressive now on a much greater extent that 3 years ago. Grudges have been induced further and further, and will continue to build as long as this game is around. Its something were all going to have to get used to.
[/quote]
Aye, get used to --- and revel in.

I do not get why perceived oppression or vengeful behaviour is deemed to be something undesirable. Escalating vengeance and ever increasing retribution is actually a good thing Grudges keep you focused, give you a purpose. Resignation and fatalism on the other hand however make you lose the battle. One gets their teeth kicked in, one goes out to find a better pair of boots themselves, preferably with spikes. The fact that the current powers that be overcame major odds and reached the pinnacle of political and military power is an example of what is possible. Fall into the trap of moral-ism all you want, one day it will become clear to you that it is a paradigm that does more to chain and fetter you than any possible use as a weapon. It was a single use weapon and has been fired more than once already. Remember the acts that you deem to be unfair and oppressive, nurture the grudges, if there be hatred in your heart, revel in it. If you get an opportunity to unleash it, do so without restraint or a smidgen of mercy.


note: although quoting Guffey, the above is not aimed at him, it is more of a broadcast.

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[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1307681018' post='2728438']
Aye, get used to --- and revel in.

I do not get why perceived oppression or vengeful behaviour is deemed to be something undesirable. Escalating vengeance and ever increasing retribution is actually a good thing Grudges keep you focused, give you a purpose. Resignation and fatalism on the other hand however make you lose the battle. One gets their teeth kicked in, one goes out to find a better pair of boots themselves, preferably with spikes. The fact that the current powers that be overcame major odds and reached the pinnacle of political and military power is an example of what is possible. Fall into the trap of moral-ism all you want, one day it will become clear to you that it is a paradigm that does more to chain and fetter you than any possible use as a weapon. It was a single use weapon and has been fired more than once already. Remember the acts that you deem to be unfair and oppressive, nurture the grudges, if there be hatred in your heart, revel in it. If you get an opportunity to unleash it, do so without restraint or a smidgen of mercy.
[/quote]

I am quoting this text because I agree with it. So much. :wub:

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