R&R Announcement regarding bandwagoning

[Cesar Julian]

I respect this move.

[Bob]

Simple and effective. Sounds good to me.

[scutterbug]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1307394053' post='2725595']
As if you needed help after C&G beat the snot out of UINE not more than a few months ago

So, what if i bandwagon onto R&R? who you got in my range
[/quote]

Me for one, whilst I may not be RNR I am an ally of theirs and I wouldn't mind a shot at you and your all mouth no trousers attitude .

(Yeah I realise i'm a little late to comment, but hey busy day.

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1307394922' post='2725612']
Sounds good R&R. For clarification, does this include anyone that was attacking or just new wars?
[/quote]

We already attacked the arab leaugue guy, we'll be talking to darkfall shortly.

@Death: we're atm protecting the alliance who we're at war with from all but one non R&R member that jumped in. If you prefer we don't i'm okay with that too. Seeing UINE actually was the one who brought it up i doubt they would like having their ally make me change my mind.

[Gibsonator21]

Someone knock Wicked into my range please.

[Franz Ferdinand]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307399954' post='2725699']
We already attacked the arab leaugue guy, we'll be talking to darkfall shortly.

@Death: we're atm protecting the alliance who we're at war with from all but one non R&R member that jumped in.
[/quote]
Doesn't UINE already have a protector, or did I miss something?

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Franz Ferdinand' timestamp='1307401011' post='2725708']
Doesn't UINE already have a protector, or did I miss something?
[/quote]

They have several allies, yes.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1307394263' post='2725600']
You'd make a lot of people terribly happy.
[/quote]

Oh dear. I'm agreeing with Xiphosis for the second time this year. Somebody stop the madness, we might start being friendly regularly.

[Andy Roberts]

[quote name='Ridin High' timestamp='1307395152' post='2725616']
R&R, you are a very selfish alliance. I respect selfishness.
[/quote]

No. We just don't think it is right for someone to DoW for no reason, but simply use R&Rs conflict to enter war. [b]Especially[/b] when it messes up our war planning and effort. Effective war should always be planned.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Andy Roberts' timestamp='1307403479' post='2725750']
No. [b]We just don't think it is right for someone to DoW for no reason, but simply use R&Rs conflict to enter war.[/b] [b]Especially[/b] when it messes up our war planning and effort. Effective war should always be planned.
[/quote]

Then why are only non-allies excluded from this 'bandwagoning'? I would say just about every alliance likes and respects their allies, which makes me wonder why you would hold the rest of the world to what you consider a higher moral standard than those you choose to surround yourselves with? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[Baltus]

Classy.

Just here to point out, due to the crazy that is the Treaty Web, everyone can classify as an "ally". An ally could be a member of your Sphere of Interest.

ex. RnR - FOK - VE - Tetris - The Arab League

Nonetheless, this is a classy move. But I'm saddened you don't recognize the Government of UrINE.

[Mogar]

All this fuss over little old me?

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1307401922' post='2725723']
Oh dear. I'm agreeing with Xiphosis for the second time this year. Somebody stop the madness, we might start being friendly regularly.
[/quote]

We're not already?

[Caliph]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1307403788' post='2725758']
Then why are only non-allies excluded from this 'bandwagoning'? I would say just about every alliance likes and respects their allies, which makes me wonder why you would hold the rest of the world to what you consider a higher moral standard than those you choose to surround yourselves with? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
[/quote]
Cuz R&R is classy. R&R doesn't want to have to smash UINE or their allies, and is only doing this as a last resort to get UINE to wake up and comply with terms they had already agreed on. Having additional people jumping UINE is detrimental to R&R's goals of resolving this so they must be stopped.

As to why R&R's allies can jump in, well theres only one and I would suspect its a "grandfathered" case, I really doubt additional people will jump UINE who are R&R's allies, unless UINE's allies escalate things, which is a very real possibility, though perhaps not likely since UINE is very clearly guilty of not complying with surrender terms.

[Enzos]

classy, keep the grave robbers at bay!

[zigbigadorlou]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307399954' post='2725699']
We already attacked the arab leaugue guy, we'll be talking to darkfall shortly.

@Death: we're atm protecting the alliance who we're at war with from all but one non R&R member that jumped in. If you prefer we don't i'm okay with that too. Seeing UINE actually was the one who brought it up i doubt they would like having their ally make me change my mind.
[/quote]
So, what do you say to those who wish to bandwagon against the bandwagoners? Do you extend this to the second degree?

[Hereno]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1307406099' post='2725789']
Cuz R&R is classy. R&R doesn't want to have to smash UINE or their allies, and is only doing this as a last resort to get UINE to wake up and comply with terms they had already agreed on. Having additional people jumping UINE is detrimental to R&R's goals of resolving this so they must be stopped.

As to why R&R's allies can jump in, well theres only one and I would suspect its a "grandfathered" case, I really doubt additional people will jump UINE who are R&R's allies, unless UINE's allies escalate things, which is a very real possibility, though perhaps not likely since UINE is very clearly guilty of not complying with surrender terms.
[/quote]

First of all, this is not a last resort. R&R could have just waited and given UINE another extension, given Keve was in the process of paying off the reps. But, they gave him an ultimatum that was broken, and now they're following through on it. Don't get me wrong, that's a completely reasonable thing to do, but don't pretend as if R&R has a soft spot in their heart for all the nations of UINE caught up in this mess. That would be a lie; and if UINE were maybe an ally of an ally, I doubt we would even see an ultimatum, much less a declaration of war. Additionally, having more nations jump in on UINE does nothing inherently to hinder the peace process. After the two alliances in question make peace, the bandwagoning nations could be treated by UINE as rogues and be dealt with by them and their allies accordingly.

But then why would they issue this announcement in the first place? The most likely reason seems to be positive PR. Nobody is going to want to go up against all of R&R just to hit UINE, and they've in the process allowed their allies a free pass to hit UINE as they see fit, making them happy and avoiding any potential clashes of interest. And I stress the point that none of this is inherently terrible, but nevertheless feel the need to point out that R&R isn't this pillar of morality that everyone seems to be claiming, but rather just another group of opportunists taking actions which benefit themselves and their sphere of interest.

Edited to fix repeated words

Edited June 7, 2011 by Hereno

[Caliph]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1307407976' post='2725807']
First of all, this is not a last resort. R&R could have just waited and given UINE another extension, given Keve was in the process of paying off the reps. But, they gave him an ultimatum that was broken, and now they're following through on it. Don't get me wrong, that's a completely reasonable thing to do, but don't pretend as if R&R has a soft spot in their heart for all the nations of UINE caught up in this mess. That would be a lie; and if UINE were maybe an ally of an ally, I doubt we would even see an ultimatum, much less a declaration of war. Additionally, having more nations jump in on UINE does nothing inherently to hinder the peace process. After the two alliances in question make peace, the bandwagoning nations could be treated by UINE as rogues and be dealt with by them and their allies accordingly.

But then why would they issue this announcement in the first place? The most likely reason seems to be positive PR. Nobody is going to want to go up against all of R&R just to hit UINE, and they've in the process allowed their allies a free pass to hit UINE as they see fit, making them happy and avoiding any potential clashes of interest. And I stress the point that none of this is inherently terrible, but nevertheless feel the need to point out that R&R isn't this pillar of morality that everyone seems to be claiming, but rather just another group of opportunists taking actions which benefit themselves and their sphere of interest.

Edited to fix repeated words
[/quote]
R&R has dealt with UINE before to get them to comply, all with failed results. Enough was enough, so R&R had enough and hit UINE.
That is as good a CB as it gets here. Clear case of guilt.

[Delta1212]

I really like how R&R is being criticized for not protecting the alliance they are at war with from enough people. They are under no obligation to protect UINE from anyone. Prior to this announcement, anyone could attack UINE without Worrying about R&R's reaction. Now, most people cannot.

The fact that you think that R&R should pledge to attack their own allies in defense of the alliance they are at war with is more than a little ridiculous. If you have an issue with the small subset of alliances that R&R isn't protecting UINE from, maybe you should be complaining to the people who are [I]actually suppose to defend them[/I]?

[Mogar]

My actions != RIA's actions if you want to attack me, do it.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1307410597' post='2725827']
My actions != RIA's actions if you want to attack me, do it.
[/quote]
Because this is the OWF and people are like to try doing this, I'm going to let everyone know ahead of time that I don't recommend taking him on the offer. Sorry, Mogar.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1307410442' post='2725823']
R&R has dealt with UINE before to get them to comply, all with failed results. Enough was enough, so R&R had enough and hit UINE.
That is as good a CB as it gets here. Clear case of guilt.
[/quote]

It is evident that you did not read my post. Here, let me go ahead and quote the part that addresses this here concern, so that you may move past it and then reply to the actual point of my post.

[quote]
R&R could have just waited and given UINE another extension, given Keve was in the process of paying off the reps. But, they gave him an ultimatum that was broken, and now they're following through on it. Don't get me wrong, that's a completely reasonable thing to do
[/quote]

Take special care to note how I took no shots at the validity of R&R's CB.

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1307410510' post='2725825']
Prior to this announcement, anyone could attack UINE without Worrying about R&R's reaction.
[/quote]

Ridin High would disagree with this post.

[D34th]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1307395758' post='2725626']
Justification, like, say, having R&R officially consider you a member of their alliance for the duration of a conflict? Or perhaps having a treaty with an aggression clause in it? Perhaps if this bothers you so much you should, I don't know, honor your MDP? Or assuming that your government doesn't listen to your rational and well thought out arguments, you should consider leaving and joining UINE for the duration?
[/quote]

Expected answer: DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!1!!1

If Polaris order me to attack those who hasn't justified reasons and are bandwagoning UINE, I'll glady do so.

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1307399954' post='2725699']
@Death: we're atm protecting the alliance who we're at war with from all but one non R&R member that jumped in. If you prefer we don't i'm okay with that too. Seeing UINE actually was the one who brought it up i doubt they would like having their ally make me change my mind.
[/quote]

You speak like UINE hadn't allies to protect them against [b]UNJUSTIFIED[/b] aggressions. You move would be a honorable one if you were stopping attacks made by those members of your allies who hadn't treaties activated and therefore have no justification to attack UINE. By saying that you are considering mogar a member of your alliance even when he is flying RIA AA just make you a enabler of rogue/bandwagon attacks. I already saw nations ghosting allies AA just to make part of the war and this never was considered a good thing to do, but at least people used to use the AA even if as ghosts to try to fool people. Of course until now it was just one attack and Mogar already peaced out, so this isn't really much of a problem.

(Unjustified in bold and caps before more "SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT")

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1307407976' post='2725807']
First of all, this is not a last resort. R&R could have just waited and given UINE another extension, given Keve was in the process of paying off the reps. But, they gave him an ultimatum that was broken, and now they're following through on it. Don't get me wrong, that's a completely reasonable thing to do, but don't pretend as if R&R has a soft spot in their heart for all the nations of UINE caught up in this mess. That would be a lie; and if UINE were maybe an ally of an ally, I doubt we would even see an ultimatum, much less a declaration of war. Additionally, having more nations jump in on UINE does nothing inherently to hinder the peace process. After the two alliances in question make peace, the bandwagoning nations could be treated by UINE as rogues and be dealt with by them and their allies accordingly.

But then why would they issue this announcement in the first place? The most likely reason seems to be positive PR. Nobody is going to want to go up against all of R&R just to hit UINE, and they've in the process allowed their allies a free pass to hit UINE as they see fit, making them happy and avoiding any potential clashes of interest. And I stress the point that none of this is inherently terrible, but nevertheless feel the need to point out that R&R isn't this pillar of morality that everyone seems to be claiming, but rather just another group of opportunists taking actions which benefit themselves and their sphere of interest.

Edited to fix repeated words
[/quote]

Whatever the reason/existential reality of the situation is, does it matter? It's just not really a big enough deal to even waste thinking time on when it comes down to it man. Fending off bandwagoners isn't anything new, we've seen it a number of times in large v. small conflicts such as this (actually I think we may have done it ourselves back with GDI due to the annoyance factor, could have been someone else though).

Edited June 7, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Hereno]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1307411816' post='2725842']
Whatever the reason/existential reality of the situation is, does it matter? It's just not really a big enough deal to even waste thinking time on when it comes down to it man. Fending off bandwagoners isn't anything new, we've seen it a number of times in large v. small conflicts such as this (actually I think we may have done it ourselves back with GDI due to the annoyance factor, could have been someone else though).
[/quote]

It matters just as much to me as the potential peace mode escape of two separate ~3,000 NS nations matters to R&R.