Explanations, SUNny side up

[Dexomega]

I'm wondering why exactly Exodus would admit a nation that is in a war (or two in this case). That's just poor recruitment practice. Personally I won't accept members until the wars are peaced, not a second sooner.

But I'm just a lowly Cabinet advisor / Former Economics Minister / Former Tribune / Former temporary Recruitment Minister. What do I know.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Dexomega

[ironchef]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1305693894' post='2714164']
I'm wondering why exactly Exodus would admit a nation that is in a war (or two in this case). That's just poor recruitment practice. Personally I won't accept members until the wars are peaced, not a second sooner.

But I'm just a lowly Cabinet advisor / Former Economics Minister / Former Tribune / Former temporary Recruitment Minister. What do I know.
[/quote]

Go read the my post #42 on this page. He was a member of Exodus at one time and came back to us. He told us and SUN he was goign back to Exodus before he ever told their founder to suck his wang and had his app in before one of the wars and was on our AA when the other two hit him. So good try but you have nothing sorry.

edit added post #

Edited May 18, 2011 by ironchef

[Heft]

I'm just disappointed that I missed out on all of the fun with this one. :/

[Dexomega]

[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1305694930' post='2714168']
Go read the my post #42 on this page. He was a member of Exodus at one time and came back to us. He told us and SUN he was goign back to Exodus before he ever told their founder to suck his wang and had his app in before one of the wars and was on our AA when the other two hit him. So good try but you have nothing sorry.

edit added post #
[/quote]
This appears to be poorly handled by all parties, with the primary offenders being a select few in SUN Gov, the ZI target in question, and Exodus for so speedily accepting a member (despite any past history you had with him, that was too fast). The information in post #42 is incomplete and tells a sketchy and a bit hard to understand story.

SUN Gov should have agreed on a course of action to begin with, and not confused it later on.

Exodus accepted before the matter was even properly put to rest. The word of a single government member (regardless of position) guarantees nothing, something I know PAINFULLY well from my dealings with GOONS back in December. (If you think talking to xYnOhTnAx was hard/bad, try Sardonic)

The ZI Target shouldn't have been a dick. Case closed.

I don't begin to see where the need to give you 24 million comes into play. Hell, if that kind of damage was honest-to-god inflicted within a few hours (again, I take that this was over the course of several hours, your info is sketchy) someone needs to work on their defensive posturing.

Bottomline: You can't blame this all on SUN, so don't try. You all screwed this up a bit, accept it. I feel the terms here are disproportionate, but alas, I'm not the moral compass for Exodus here.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Dexomega

[Heft]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1305698022' post='2714201']
This appears to be poorly handled by all parties, with the primary offenders being a select few in SUN Gov, the ZI target in question, and Exodus for so speedily accepting a member (despite any past history you had with him, that was too fast). The information in post #42 is incomplete and tells a sketchy and a bit hard to understand story.

SUN Gov should have agreed on a course of action to begin with, and not confused it later on.

Exodus accepted before the matter was even properly put to rest. The word of a single government member (regardless of position) guarantees nothing, something I know PAINFULLY well from my dealings with GOONS back in December. (If you think talking to xYnOhTnAx was hard/bad, try Sardonic)

The ZI Target shouldn't have been a dick. Case closed.

I don't begin to see where the need to give you 24 million comes into play. Hell, if that kind of damage was honest-to-god inflicted within a few hours (again, I take that this was over the course of several hours, your info is sketchy) someone needs to work on their defensive posturing.

Bottomline: You can't blame this all on SUN, so don't try. You all screwed this up a bit, accept it. I feel the terms here are disproportionate, but alas, I'm not the moral compass for Exodus here.
[/quote]
No, you are wrong, sorry. Go back to UPN, etc.

First of all, you don't get to tell another alliance how they should handle their recruitment. Exodus re-accepting someone that they knew well and that, at the time he lodged his application, did not apparently have any such lingering issues, is perfectly valid. I suppose they could institute some sort of mandatory waiting period or something, but that would just be dumb.

This issue was handled with plenty of patience on Exodus' side. I (unfortunately ) wasn't available for the discussions, but I've seen enough of the logs to understand why the terms are what they are. Plenty of other people would have just gone straight to war once Ragnarok cleared the path, and hardly anyone would have complained if they had. Maybe you would have, but the people who actually had to sit in the same room as SUN and try to talk some sense into them would have been perfectly happy to see the tanks roll.

[ironchef]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1305698022' post='2714201']
This appears to be poorly handled by all parties, with the primary offenders being a select few in SUN Gov, the ZI target in question, and Exodus for so speedily accepting a member (despite any past history you had with him, that was too fast). The information in post #42 is incomplete and tells a sketchy and a bit hard to understand story.

SUN Gov should have agreed on a course of action to begin with, and not confused it later on.

Exodus accepted before the matter was even properly put to rest. The word of a single government member (regardless of position) guarantees nothing, something I know PAINFULLY well from my dealings with GOONS back in December.

The ZI Target shouldn't have been a dick. Case closed.

I don't begin to see where the need to give you 24 million comes into play. Hell, if that kind of damage was honest-to-god inflicted within a few hours (again, I take that this was over the course of several hours, your info is sketchy) someone needs to work on their defensive posturing.

Bottomline: You can't blame this all on SUN, so don't try. You all screwed this up a bit, accept it. I feel the terms here are disproportionate, but alas, I'm not the moral compass for Exodus here.
[/quote]

8 GA's 8 CM's 8 air attacks plus what he spent to fight back. I do not think 24mil is too much to ask. Oh and its not ZI it was PZI.
And like I said he didnt just show up he had been planning to leave for days and they knew this as did we so it was not an OMG lets mask you as a members thing. His app was on our forum and he was masked as a member before the fist war. He had not set him AA to Exodus becaue he didnt know he had been masked on the forum. He came on to see he was being attacked by one nation and seen his mask so he set his AA to Exodus then he was attacked by two more membrs of SUN.

As for the moral compass for Exodus. Its a good thing we have one or this would have gone much worse for SUN.

[Dexomega]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1305699230' post='2714211']
No, you are wrong, sorry. Go back to UPN, etc.

First of all, you don't get to tell another alliance how they should handle their recruitment. Exodus re-accepting someone that they knew well and that, at the time he lodged his application, did not apparently have any such lingering issues, is perfectly valid. I suppose they could institute some sort of mandatory waiting period or something, but that would just be dumb.

This issue was handled with plenty of patience on Exodus' side. I (unfortunately ) wasn't available for the discussions, but I've seen enough of the logs to understand why the terms are what they are. Plenty of other people would have just gone straight to war once Ragnarok cleared the path, and hardly anyone would have complained if they had. Maybe you would have, but the people who actually had to sit in the same room as SUN and try to talk some sense into them would have been perfectly happy to see the tanks roll.
[/quote]
Fair enough, however I'm only agreeing after I went fishing for info myself. Post #42 didn't answer many of my questions whereas other people did. Funny.

24 Million is still a bit high for an alliance because of an indecisive government, etc. Or not, I'm honestly still a bit annoyed by the utter lack of a true timeline of events, which is getting clearer by the minute. You do what you have to I suppose.

P.S. I can't believe you guys take me seriously when my title is "Minister of Epic Trolling". A bit sad that you took [i]everything [/i]I said at face value. Particularly "That's just poor recruitment practice." which was outright trollbait.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Dexomega

[Holy Empire of Halin]

Getting expelled for saying that? SUN people need to get out more.

El Barto you have been a bad, bad ruler D: Say Sowwy

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1305699710' post='2714215']
Fair enough, however I'm only agreeing after I went fishing for info myself. Post #42 didn't answer many of my questions whereas other people did. Funny.

24 Million is still a bit high for an alliance because of an indecisive government, etc. Or not, I'm honestly still a bit annoyed by the utter lack of a true timeline of events, which is getting clearer by the minute. You do what you have to I suppose.

P.S. I can't believe you guys take me seriously when my title is "Minister of Epic Trolling". A bit sad that you took [i]everything [/i]I said at face value. Particularly "That's just poor recruitment practice." which was outright trollbait.
[/quote]


I also really feel that IC's small log release really veils some of the reason why pretty much any party remotely involved was perfectly willing to let the tanks roll.

(Queue Obama and this being a teachable moment for SUN on handling Foreign Affairs )

[Scorponok]

Wasn't the best route to go down now eh?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1305687094' post='2714083']
Strange world...Exodus accepts a member who is unaligned, under a ZI sentence and at war with SUN but SUN has to pay reps to Exodus?

I don't really care either way but that seems exactly the opposite of what usually happens here.
[/quote]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FMnQv.png[/IMG]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1305690236' post='2714124']
From my understanding, Exodus accepted El Barto and only after El Barto was firmly on the Exodus AA did attacks begin with no prior warning. Nor were they informed of the PZI listing until after attacks began.
[/quote]
This is pretty easy to sort out: Click "search wars." Magic! You don't even have to think for yourself, the numbers tell you everything you need to know.



SUN should tell Exodus exactly where they can find their "reps" (I find it physically impossible to need reparations for something that wasn't yours) and Exodus should find the wherewithall to try this without Daddy NSO standing behind them.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Wabooz]

Daddy NSO? I thought it was Daddy Valhalla.. two daddies makes for strange bed time stories XD

[wickedj]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1305686926' post='2714079']
I vote for SUN and Gotham to merge. Such awesomeness in a single alliance would hardly be contained.
[/quote]
The foundation for GGA has been laid

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1305691157' post='2714134']
So before he was kicked and put on the PZI list lol [i]I can’t say it without laughing [/i]they knew he was coming back to Exodsu.
[/quote]
Oh, yeah, also: P.S, World: If I ever screw up, you should know I'm applying to TOP, so you can't do anything about it--I'll be off limits, suckerrrrrrs.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Heft]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1305699710' post='2714215']
P.S. I can't believe you guys take me seriously when my title is "Minister of Epic Trolling". A bit sad that you took [i]everything [/i]I said at face value. Particularly "That's just poor recruitment practice." which was outright trollbait.
[/quote]
Eh, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law"]Poe's Law[/url], etc.


[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1305705581' post='2714241']
SUN should tell Exodus exactly where they can find their "reps" (I find it physically impossible to need reparations for something that wasn't yours) and Exodus should find the wherewithall to try this without Daddy NSO standing behind them.
[/quote]
My understanding is that the application was lodged prior to that attack, and at the time the application was handled no attack had yet been launched, and also that the only first communication from SUN came later. El Barto was unaware he was on any ZI list, and thus so were Exodus. SUN claimed he was on a PZI list, not a ZI list, and also that he was on this list for "insulting" one of their founders (and when pressed, also because he kick/banned him from an IRC channel). And reps and such were only pursued after SUN proceeded to waste everyone's time and generally piss everyone off.

[ironchef]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1305705581' post='2714241']
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FMnQv.png[/IMG]


This is pretty easy to sort out: Click "search wars." Magic! You don't even have to think for yourself, the numbers tell you everything you need to know.



SUN should tell Exodus exactly where they can find their "reps" (I find it physically impossible to need reparations for something that wasn't yours) and Exodus should find the wherewithall to try this without Daddy NSO standing behind them.
[/quote]

This was all over with the night of the attacks on our member. We asked that they give peace, Elbarto said sorry to the founder he told to do things to his wang and all was right with the world. Had SUN left it at that we would not be here today. But nooooooo they had to come back the next day and be all big and bad and tell us he was still going to be PZI'd and to stick it. Now if their own protectorate after seeing logs of all this felt SUN was in the wrong, why is it so hard for you to see? Hell in the first round of talkes yesterday even after we got told to shove it all we asked for was reps for the wars declared on him after he was on our AA and after we had been told there would be peace. SUN had to push it thinking big Daddy RoK would back their stupidity. If you think SUN has been unjustly treated and did nothing wrong why don’t you offer them a protectorate, I think they are still on the market for one. The two of you would fit well together.

ps
I love by big Daddy Valhalla and my big Daddy IAA just as much as big Daddy NSO so dont leave them out. I'm so lucky to have 3 Daddies.

[Partisan]

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1305699710' post='2714215']
Fair enough, however I'm only agreeing after I went fishing for info myself. Post #42 didn't answer many of my questions whereas other people did. Funny.

24 Million is still a bit high for an alliance because of an indecisive government, etc. Or not, I'm honestly still a bit annoyed by the utter lack of a true timeline of events, which is getting clearer by the minute. You do what you have to I suppose.

P.S. I can't believe you guys take me seriously when my title is "Minister of Epic Trolling". A bit sad that you took [i]everything [/i]I said at face value. Particularly "That's just poor recruitment practice." which was outright trollbait.
[/quote]

At first the only thing we asked for was an apology and compensation of damage done. The mere retardedness of the situation and the stubborn posturing while they still thought RoK was backing them got us to the point where we were this close to going to war. I've spent 6 - 7 subsequent hours of my night dealing with this mess. Quite some of us were ready to roll. We gave them a last chance to get out relatively easy (whats 24 mil for a 1 mil NS alliance?) and they took it. See part of the 24 mil as a "we sorry" gift.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1305705581' post='2714241']
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FMnQv.png[/IMG]


This is pretty easy to sort out: Click "search wars." Magic! You don't even have to think for yourself, the numbers tell you everything you need to know.



SUN should tell Exodus exactly where they can find their "reps" (I find it physically impossible to need reparations for something that wasn't yours) and Exodus should find the wherewithall to try this without Daddy NSO standing behind them.
[/quote]

SUN should have cleared the attacks with Exodus before hitting a nation on our AA, regardless wether he was already accepted or not. Its common decency, really.

[King MyLife]

[quote]Many inhabitants of the cyberverse seem to think that we had no reason to expel or ZI el_barto. However this is not the case. Telling a senior government member to “suck on my wang” is, in our opinion, ample enough reason for both expulsion as well as ZI. You are free to agree or disagree but in the end, how we conduct business is up to us.[/quote]


Suck my wang mofos...Now PZI me now Mother@#$%&^...

[Iotupa]

This is actually exactly like the same situation as when you came after DirtyOldMan back when he joined The Dominion after leaving the GGA.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Jonathan Brookbank

[Partisan]

[quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' timestamp='1305713092' post='2714258']
This is actually exactly like the same situation where you came after DirtyOldMan back when he joined The Dominion after leaving the GGA.

Hypocrisy at its finest.
[/quote]

So...Exodus went after DirtyOldMan after he left the GGA to join your little failfest?

Dang. We're worse than I thought.

[ironchef]

[quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' timestamp='1305713092' post='2714258']
This is actually exactly like the same situation where you came after DirtyOldMan back when he joined The Dominion after leaving the GGA.

Hypocrisy at its finest.
[/quote]

Well if anything I’m consistent JB. Two things we have in common because you are still an ass. Don’t even change.

[Iotupa]

[quote name='Partisan' timestamp='1305714756' post='2714266']
So...Exodus went after DirtyOldMan after he left the GGA to join your little failfest?

Dang. We're worse than I thought.
[/quote]

No, ironchef did when she was leading GGA.

And, yes, The Dominion was a failure...that's why it was bigger on day one than Exodus is on day 216.

You're better than this, Partisan, really.


[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1305714771' post='2714267']
Well if anything I’m consistent JB. Two things we have in common because you are still an ass. Don’t even change.
[/quote]


Not the first time I've been called an ass for speaking the truth, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Also, this is the opposite of consistency, this is hypocrisy. In the DOM situation, I was defending a member and YOU were the aggressor, just like SUN.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Jonathan Brookbank

[NoFish]

[quote name='Partisan' timestamp='1305709309' post='2714253']
SUN should have cleared the attacks with Exodus before hitting a nation on our AA, regardless wether he was already accepted or not. Its common decency, really.
[/quote]
Except they started hitting him when he was on none. Does that mean everyone needs to clear it with you before attacking unaligned nations?

Edited May 18, 2011 by NoFish

[Varianz]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1305725925' post='2714300']
Except they started hitting him when he was on none. Does that mean everyone needs to clear it with you before attacking unaligned nations?
[/quote]
Exodus would've let them finish that war while he was on none, since they had no jurisdiction then. It might be poor form to attack someone who left your AA over insulting gov, but it happens. Once he applied to and joined Exodus however, he was off limits. Exodus would've happily let the matter drop, except that after they explained he was protected by them, SUN launched two new wars.

I really can't believe anyone is faulting Exodus for refusing to allow SUN to PZI someone over [i]insults[/i]. Jesus christ people.

[Varianz]

If people have a problem with this, go offer SUN a protectorate, and then they can refuse to cooperate and be unreasonable dicks like when they were in Ragnablok.