Greatest Alliance Rivalries

[Bodvar Jarl]

There is intensity, and then there is longevity.

TOP-NpO, MK-NPO and FAN-NPO wins out on the latter. All starting in 2007. I can't recall anything major originating from that far back that has endured into 2011.

In terms of intensity, I think NpO&co vs UJP and NPO/NpO vs GATO/LUE/NAAC gets the medals, though. Espescially the rivalries used to be so much better back then, I suppose five years of maturity has something to do with it.

Loads of honorable mentions there. VE vs /b/ wasn't pretty, I don't think that got mentioned yet.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1305737286' post='2714373']
Mentioned it on the second page.
[/quote]
Well, then I am surprised at my inability to read.

[Feanor Noldorin]

I'm with Bodvar. I'm surprised VE vs /b/ hasn't gotten a mention yet.

[eyriq]

Walford vs raiders

[Joe Kremlin]

I think it's because the VE-/b/ conflict wasn't really ended with in game warfare.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Joe Kremlin

[Comrade Korey]

The old WUT/Toilet bowl gaing era (NPO, \m/, GOONS, TPF, ect) vs former league alliance,( ODN, legion, GATO, ect)

I think it would be hard to pick out a single alliance against a single alliance from that time period. The only way would probably be to find out which alliance NPO hated the most because the whole league side hated NPO pretty evenly. It's actually very impressive that so many alliances hated NPO for so long and yet it took until Karma to beatdown NPO.

[Crymson]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1305735995' post='2714366']
Crymson talking about nonsense, THAT is ironic.
[/quote]

It doesn't surprise me in the least that this is the best response you could muster up.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1305726440' post='2714306']
The biggest rivalries in the game and the ones that have driven politics for years are these:

NPO & NpO vs NAAC
NPO vs GATO
NPO vs MK
NpO vs TOP

The first drove politics for much of 2006 & 2007. The two Polar Wars, the first and third Great War, the existence of Polaris itself, all of these contributed to the rivalry of Orders v NAAC. I think I remember someone telling me that the name 'New [b]Polar[/b] Order' was chosen because it was an affront to NAAC. I also remember sponge telling me once how much he hated NAAC. The hate is pretty real. Until NAAC disbanded at the end of GW3, this rivalry, along with NPO v GATO, drove alliance politics.

Like I touched on before, NPO v GATO was a large factor in alliance politics until GATO fell from relevance after GW3. It also helped culminate in the greatest war the planet has ever seen, GW3.

NPO vs MK and NpO vs TOP have driven alliance politics since the end of the War of the Coalition. NPO v MK saw the fall of Pacifica, and with it the fall of many alliances that used to be large and relevant, like GGA, MCXA, and other alliances that were always by Pacifica's side. It has also seen the rise of MK and their hegemony.

I could write volumes about the rivalry between Polar and TOP. But let me try and summarize it here: TOP and NpO hate each other more than anyone else in the world. I don't know that this rivalry has driven alliance politics as much as some others have, but nowhere in the world will you find more mutual hatred between two alliances than NpO/TOP. Even in this thread, members talk about how much they hate each other, and members from both sides bash one another. Rarely does a thread go by without one throwing an insult at the other. Born of this rivalry was the second half of the Bipolar War. I will tell you, there are no other rivalries in the game which even come close to the amount of hatred these alliances have for each other.
[/quote]

I would say that the Polar-TOP rivalry did drive politics. Once the OoO was canceled, it allowed WoTC to occur and that war saw the fall of Polaris/BLEU. After that, there was a scramble as former BLEU members essentially went their own way for a while basically to ensure that they don't get stomped on again. This rivalry also drove Polaris to switch sides in the Bi-Polar war which saw a massive weakening of many alliances that came from NPO's "sphere". It also saw action in this war as many alliance simply stayed out of the war instead of helping Polaris out.

Oh the rivalry (along with the NPO-NpO rivalry) led to the couping of ES in Polaris.

[quote name='Simon De Montfort' timestamp='1305734537' post='2714356']
I know this doesn't qualify as an alliance rivalry. But the Moo Cows vs Ivan Modalvi rivalry changed the course of CN politics like no other.

It lead to the ES's to have the NpO leave WUT and launch their crusade against the Unjust Path which fatally weakened WUT. It also led to the NPO canceling the ordiance of the orders with enabled the WoTC to be fought. And without the NpO the NPO was in a much weaker position which led to Karma.
[/quote]

i would not say that it was Moo vs Ivan so much as NPO vs NpO. from what I remember, most of Polaris was behind the couping of Moo and the installation of Ivan in order to restrengthen the bonds between the govs of both alliances. What happened instead was just the total destruction of any trust between the two alliances. The rest is correct though.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1305735117' post='2714362']
And as is completely routine, a member of Polaris utterly fails to note any responsibility on his alliance's part for why this vicious rivalry exists.

Also, it gives lie to your statement that members of your alliance routinely complain about how much we hate your alliance.
[/quote]

To be honest, from what I remember from talking to you and others in TOP, the rivalry started mostly over the fact that ES said he wanted to dance on ya'lls (and Gre's) graves. Up until the Bi-Polar war, the rivalry existed mostly due to TOP still hating on Polaris despite Polaris having couped ES and taken a brutal stomping along with reps in WoTC.

I would think that had TOP put aside their own hatred and actually attempted to at least be neutral towards Polaris, the betrayal of the Bi-Polar war may not have happened. But it appears that you and TOP seems to fail to take into account how much responsibility falls on their shoulders for the continuous existence of this rivalry.

As for Polaris's past actions, Polaris made a lot of stupid ass mistakes and conducted some retarded wars or supported some, but so did the vast majority of WUT and later on Q. Yet, it appears that ya'll simply only want to continue to hold Polaris/Pacifica for those actions. I mean otherwise, TOP/Umbrella and many others deserve their own curbstomps for the actions they conducted during that time. Hell, as of right now, Umbrella refuses to acknowledge its actions and states that it was the previous gov's fault and not the current gov.

I will admit as a former Polar that Polaris did a lot and deserved to be stomped on in WoTC. After that the Polar-TOP rivalry continued to exist almost solely because of TOP refusing to give up the hatred. The Grämlin-Polar rivalry ended after WoTC due to Gre being capable of trying to give Polaris a chance. So again, I would suggest that you take your own advice and realize that TOP needs to be held accountable for the continued existence of this rivalry which in part drove Polaris to stab TOP in the back during Bi-Polar.

[Crymson]

Doch, you seem to be lacking significantly in understanding and knowledge of the situation you're lecturing (yes, lecturing) on. I'll elaborate a bit:

1) After the WotC and the resultant terms were over, Polaris fell [b]FAR[/b] down our list of cares. I've absolutely no clue how you got an impression otherwise. We had virtually no contact with Polaris for probably nine months after their terms ended, and they had virtually no place on our political agenda during that time. We were angry with Pacifica and Valhalla when those alliances signed treaties with Polaris after the latter's terms had ended, but the crux of our anger in that event was the fact that those alliances hadn't even bothered to ask us about it first, and the absolute lack of consideration for us that suggested.

2) We had been working to improve relations with Polaris for probably two months when the Bipolar War began. I think it was pretty clear at that point that we'd long since left the old rivalry behind.

The argument you're making is laughable. Just laughable.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Crymson

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1305740120' post='2714396']
Doch, you seem to be lacking significantly in understanding and knowledge of the situation you're lecturing (yes, lecturing) on. I'll elaborate a bit:

1) After the WotC and the resultant terms were over, Polaris fell [b]FAR[/b] down our list of cares. I've absolutely no clue how you got an impression otherwise. We had virtually no contact with Polaris for probably nine months after their terms ended, and they had virtually no place on our political agenda during that time. We were angry with Pacifica and Valhalla when those alliances signed treaties with Polaris after the latter's terms had ended, but the crux of our anger in that event was the fact that those alliances hadn't even bothered to ask us about it first, and the absolute lack of consideration for us that suggested.

2) We had been working to improve relations with Polaris for probably two months when the Bipolar War began. I think it was pretty clear at that point that we'd long since left the old rivalry behind.

The argument you're making is laughable. Just laughable.
[/quote]

1. After the War of the Coalition, even if TOP didn't care much about what Polaris did or how it acted, I'm sure you'll understand if there was still a large amount if dislike, mistrust, and even hatred for TOP from Polaris. You imposed 'secret' terms removing a good portion of our government. And then, you pushed for massive reparations, larger than any alliance had ever paid before in the history of CN.

2. You should understand why your efforts to improve relations didn't work. They mostly relate to what I just said.

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1305735117' post='2714362']
And as is completely routine, a member of Polaris utterly fails to note any responsibility on his alliance's part for why this vicious rivalry exists.

Also, it gives lie to your statement that members of your alliance routinely complain about how much we hate your alliance.
[/quote]

[/size][/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]I wasn't trying to note responsibility, only convey that the rivalry was intense and significant over the years. I also don't know of anyone in Polaris who complains about TOP's hatred for us or about our rivalry. [/size][/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]
[/size][/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]Your post here merely confirms and adds to what I said: our rivalry is the most intense and filled with hatred in the game, and it permeates almost every thread on CN.[/size][/font]

[ROMMELHSQ]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1305739928' post='2714393']
To be honest, from what I remember from talking to you and others in TOP, the rivalry started mostly over the fact that ES said he wanted to dance on ya'lls (and Gre's) graves..
[/quote]
The rivalry started in the UjW with ES not happy with our involvement to save FOK ass. And later fabricating claims that we were spying on ~ for the UjP side. The dance on the grave thing was much later thing.


[quote]....Up until the Bi-Polar war, the rivalry existed mostly due to TOP still hating on Polaris despite Polaris having couped ES and taken a brutal stomping along with reps in WoTC.
I would think that had TOP put aside their own hatred and actually attempted to at least be neutral towards Polaris, the betrayal of the Bi-Polar war may not have happened. But it appears that you and TOP seems to fail to take into account how much responsibility falls on their shoulders for the continuous existence of this rivalry. [/quote]
Now this is just a big pile of BS.
We did put aside our hatred after the WotC ended. And we put aside our mistrust of NpO long time before the Bi-polar war. I probably said it before, but I will say it again (I'm sure you won't believe it). But many in TOP were thinking of a MDP with NpO before the Bi-Polar war. Our membership wouldn't have thougght of that if they didn't put aside the hate and start to trust NpO.


[quote]I will admit as a former Polar that Polaris did a lot and deserved to be stomped on in WoTC. After that the Polar-TOP rivalry continued to exist almost solely because of TOP refusing to give up the hatred. The Grämlin-Polar rivalry ended after WoTC due to Gre being capable of trying to give Polaris a chance. So again, I would suggest that you take your own advice and realize that TOP needs to be held accountable for the continued existence of this rivalry which in part drove Polaris to stab TOP in the back during Bi-Polar.[/quote]
After the WotC, we just didn't care about you, but certainly we did not trust you. Sadly, after a couple of years we did and it was a mistake.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1305734974' post='2714359']
As it turns out they're actually one of the worst alliances out there.
[/quote]


This confirms my statement as being absolutely correct.

[Feanor Noldorin]

If you combine the alliances TOP and NpO in the same sentence it will later go on to consume the entire thread. #truth

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1305745256' post='2714420']
If you combine the alliances TOP and NpO in the same sentence it will later go on to consume the entire thread. #truth
[/quote]

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. At least we can agree on something: how much we hate each other.

[Janosik]

I thought the BPW was a chance for us and NpO to work together, 1 giant backstab later...

I remember the Nor vs. LSF or whatever those pinkos call themselves.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1305743663' post='2714411']
1. After the War of the Coalition, even if TOP didn't care much about what Polaris did or how it acted, I'm sure you'll understand if there was still a large amount if dislike, mistrust, and even hatred for TOP from Polaris. You imposed 'secret' terms removing a good portion of our government. And then, you pushed for massive reparations, larger than any alliance had ever paid before in the history of CN.
[/quote]

LOL. There it is again. You blame TOP entirely for all of this. You do realize that there were [b]seven[/b] alliances that attacked Polaris, right? Surely you're aware that all seven alliances agreed on those terms, right? Did you hate all the rest of them, too? And surely you're aware that the NPO--who were allied to six out of those seven alliances--requested most of those secret terms, right? And you do remember that Polaris signed an MDP with the NPO [i]immediately[/i] after leaving terms---[b]right?[/b]

Thank you for demonstrating what I've said about the delusions regarding the WotC that many members of Polaris choose to hold.

Also, you didn't actually address a thing of my response to Dochartaigh. He implied that TOP's continuing hatred of Polaris after the WotC perpetuated the rivalry. I told him that no such hatred existed.

[quote]
2. You should understand why your efforts to improve relations didn't work. They mostly relate to what I just said.
[/quote]

Your government acted differently, as did those members with whom we interacted in a long Q&A we had on your boards.

Try again.

[quote]
[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]
[/size][/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]I wasn't trying to note responsibility, only convey that the rivalry was intense and significant over the years. I also don't know of anyone in Polaris who complains about TOP's hatred for us or about our rivalry. [/size][/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][/quote]

This is an absurd statement. You read the OWF. You've seen it.

[quote]
[/size][/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]Your post here merely confirms and adds to what I said: our rivalry is the most intense and filled with hatred in the game, and it permeates almost every thread on CN.[/size][/font]
[/quote]

I don't see where I was arguing against this. However, I think that our vitriol towards Polaris is greater than the reverse.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Crymson

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1305740120' post='2714396']
Doch, you seem to be lacking significantly in understanding and knowledge of the situation you're lecturing (yes, lecturing) on. I'll elaborate a bit:

1) After the WotC and the resultant terms were over, Polaris fell [b]FAR[/b] down our list of cares. I've absolutely no clue how you got an impression otherwise. We had virtually no contact with Polaris for probably nine months after their terms ended, and they had virtually no place on our political agenda during that time. We were angry with Pacifica and Valhalla when those alliances signed treaties with Polaris after the latter's terms had ended, but the crux of our anger in that event was the fact that those alliances hadn't even bothered to ask us about it first, and the absolute lack of consideration for us that suggested.

2) We had been working to improve relations with Polaris for probably two months when the Bipolar War began. I think it was pretty clear at that point that we'd long since left the old rivalry behind.

The argument you're making is laughable. Just laughable.
[/quote]

Crymson- I got the impression from when I joined Gremlins and any time I discussed anything Polar related it ended up with a pretty heated discussion over how horrible Polaris was and essentially the feeling I got was of basically complete hatred of Polaris. Hey, I will admit that maybe I mistook the feelings (which could have happened due to everything being text based)but it simply appeared to me that most of TOP, including gov, basically still held a hatred of Polaris. While Polaris may not have been much of a concern politically, that does not mean that the hatred ceased in the least. To TOP Polaris was insignificant sure, at that point Polaris was completely insignificant for a while. They were politically very isolated and greatly weakened in terms of strength. So TOP may not have worried about it but again, that does not mean the hatred was gone. That was how I got the impression mate.

As for the 2 months prior to the Bi-Polar, good on ya mate. By that point in time, I would venture a guess that Polaris had decided to not let the rivalry go by that point or were stupid enough to believe that MK gave two !@#$% about Polaris.

[quote name='ROMMELHSQ' timestamp='1305743794' post='2714413']
The rivalry started in the UjW with ES not happy with our involvement to save FOK ass. And later fabricating claims that we were spying on ~ for the UjP side. The dance on the grave thing was much later thing.[/quote]

Ahhhh... I do apologize, I forgot the UjW/spying bit. I knew there was a reason why ES said he wanted to dance on your graves.

[quote]Now this is just a big pile of BS.
We did put aside our hatred after the WotC ended. And we put aside our mistrust of NpO long time before the Bi-polar war. I probably said it before, but I will say it again (I'm sure you won't believe it). But many in TOP were thinking of a MDP with NpO before the Bi-Polar war. Our membership wouldn't have thougght of that if they didn't put aside the hate and start to trust NpO.[/quote]

Hey, as I told Crymson, I am just giving my impression from when I was a member of Gre and discussed Polaris with TOP members shortly after WoTC. The couple of months prior to Bi-Polar, both sides for the most part were fairly silent towards one another. There was no praise or any semblance of friendship that I noticed on the boards. As for Polaris- after WoTC, most disliked TOP but Polaris simply wanted to move on from the beatdown and the terms.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1305748604' post='2714448']
And surely you're aware that the NPO--who were allied to six out of those seven alliances--requested most of those secret terms, right? And you do remember that Polaris signed an MDP with the NPO [i]immediately[/i] after leaving terms---[b]right?[/b]
[/quote]

Well that does confirm the fact that I thought Polaris was completely idiotic for re-signing with NPO/TPF. Also, just going to note that in no way did TOP have to actually use or enforce any of those secret terms that NPO requested. The fact that TOP, and the rest, did put them in effect is another reason for Polaris to hate on TOP.

While I still love Polaris and consider it to be my first home, it has made a great many mistakes in its time. Both while I was there and when I left. The greatest in my opinion is betraying TOP/co (yes hindsight is 20/20) particularly since MK used them up and then dropped them as soon as possible and turned around and signed with TOP (Polaris's greatest rival at the time). Not only that but the only thing they gained from that is a bunch of new rivals.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1305750038' post='2714469']
Also, just going to note that in no way did TOP have to actually use or enforce any of those secret terms that NPO requested. The fact that TOP, and the rest, did put them in effect is another reason for Polaris to hate on TOP.
[/quote]

It's true that none of us should have acceded to any of the NPO's requests. That said, Polaris's claims that we were behind everything in the WotC and in the terms is just an excuse for them to be able to say, "Oh, we had a good reason for backstabbing them." That's total nonsense. And anyone who was in Polaris's government at the time we were stabbed in the back knows that it happened because Grub fell apart emotionally. They know that he had no master plan. His actions had no root in whatever happened during the era of the WotC. He simply began falling apart at the start of the war, and the nonsensical decisions began then. Stabbing us in the back was one of those.

[Simon De Montfort]

I think the last several pages only prove that the TOP vs NpO rivalry is the greatest.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Simon De Montfort' timestamp='1305752246' post='2714485']
I think the last several pages only prove that the TOP vs NpO rivalry is the greatest.
[/quote]
Greatest ongoing at least. Most grudges as others have alluded to nowadays don't give that vibe of open hostility and intensity any more. This is a rarity and I must say that I rather enjoy it. I just wish I had popcorn.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1305738425' post='2714379']
I'm with Bodvar. I'm surprised VE vs /b/ hasn't gotten a mention yet.
[/quote]
It was a special kind of hate, but I couldn't argue that it had the same lasting impact on the game that other rivalries have had.

[Penkala]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1305736607' post='2714370']
Surprised no one has said Vox v NPO. That was one of the most enjoyable times in this game for me.
[/quote]

That was a lot of fun.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1305754699' post='2714521']
That was a lot of fun.
[/quote]

Yeah, but it led to nothing. Vox's effect upon Q, for example, was virtually nil.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1305750038' post='2714469']
I would venture a guess that Polaris had decided to not let the rivalry go by that point or were stupid enough to believe that MK gave two !@#$% about Polaris.

[/quote]

More likely a combo of both of the above Doch. Grub saw what he felt was an opportunity to get some payback and Im sure MK was doing nothing but supporting that idea when asked, because to them Grubs plan was like a gift from the gods and full of win and lulz...

Edited May 18, 2011 by chefjoe

[Banksy]

I really can't say I've ever really thought of NpO v TOP as a great rivalry. I get it that you don't particularly like each other, but it's quite a confined rivalry and doesn't (and hasn't) dominated the game (although in certain points it has been important).