Declaration of Reexistance

[nutkase]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306639008' post='2719793']
I'm not sure how I feel about your declaration.
In one message I am asked if I'm interested in joining you and in another I'm instructed to leave the AA or face ghostbusting measures....

[b]Sir, you have no authority to demand I leave an AA you abandoned long ago.[/b]
I may yet apply, but I remain unconvinced that you all can overcome the obstacles you ran away from before.

We should discuss this matter further, but for now I expect some civility.
[/quote]

You act like you will just be able to walk in with no issues, you backed Ram. You helped in the destruction of a once proud and dignified alliance, what claim of ownership do you think you are owed?

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1306639656' post='2719797']
You act like you will just be able to walk in with no issues, you backed Ram. You helped in the destruction of a once proud and dignified alliance, what claim of ownership do you think you are owed?
[/quote]


I'm not asking you for anything.
I'll repeat it again:
This is an AA you, and others now claiming some divine right, abandoned.

None of you were forced to leave, none expelled.

Most of you all faced a challenge you preferred to run from than confront. Yet today you claim sovereignty and demand that I vacate.
You all had votes, you all had rank, you all had a voice... and you all [b]chose to resent the name GREMLINS[/b].

Don't lecture me on "helping in the destruction of a once proud and dignified alliance." I worked for a direction you didn't bother to steer.

When I saw policies I disagreed with I voiced a strong opposition, worked and fought for change. That's more than many of you can say.
When the [b]votes[/b] didn't go my way I didn't run, I didn't abandon the flag to which I claim allegiance, I didn't stab anybody in the back. I fought to defend the alliance's decision and I worked to aid even many of those who [i]did[/i] abandon the AA.

The fact remains that this declaration is an affront. Rather than any diplomacy, I have been [b]ordered[/b] off of my flag.

I urge those staging this effort to discuss the matter with me (and all of those retaining the AA).
If you insist on treating me like an common ghost then we're not likely to progress much. I have no desire to exchange nukes with friends because they can't be bothered to be diplomatic but I will, and most of you know that.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306641132' post='2719802']
I'm not asking you for anything.
I'll repeat it again:
This is an AA you, and others now claiming some divine right, abandoned.

None of you were forced to leave, none expelled.

Most of you all faced a challenge you preferred to run from than confront. Yet today you claim sovereignty and demand that I vacate.
You all had votes, you all had rank, you all had a voice... and you all [b]chose to resent the name GREMLINS[/b].

Don't lecture me on "helping in the destruction of a once proud and dignified alliance." I worked for a direction you didn't bother to steer.

When I saw policies I disagreed with I voiced a strong opposition, worked and fought for change. That's more than many of you can say.
When the [b]votes[/b] didn't go my way I didn't run, I didn't abandon the flag to which I claim allegiance, I didn't stab anybody in the back. I fought to defend the alliance's decision and I worked to aid even many of those who [i]did[/i] abandon the AA.

The fact remains that this declaration is an affront. Rather than any diplomacy, I have been [b]ordered[/b] off of my flag.

I urge those staging this effort to discuss the matter with me (and all of those retaining the AA).
If you insist on treating me like an common ghost then we're not likely to progress much. I have no desire to exchange nukes with friends because they can't be bothered to be diplomatic but I will, and most of you know that.
[/quote]

We are trying to re-install a alliance back to it's best point of time, what can you say you have done with it? You were nothing more then a large cog in the machine that brought down the once great Grämlins. We did not just leave like rats of a sinking ship! Many of us tried every legal approach even some of us tried illegal ones, once the options exhausted themselves what else is their to do but leave when you do not agree with the workings of the government? Many of us to likes of Bob J, Inferno and myself stood up to Ram and confront him, But people like you just sat in the background and watched from afar.

Are you serious? you need to recheck the old forums! Ram and myself fought on every occasion along with many of the others, I never saw that commitment form you, hell once Ram went inactive why did you not take control and try and steer it yourself?

Try to be diplomatic? So far we have been, I do not see any nations attacking you.

Stop trying to portray yourself as the white light that was hidden behind Ram's darkness.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1306639656' post='2719797']
You act like you will just be able to walk in with no issues, you backed Ram. You helped in the destruction of a once proud and dignified alliance, what claim of ownership do you think you are owed?
[/quote]
To be fair he said apply, not join.

To Matthew: Given the depths to which Gramlins had fallen, the existing "government" had lost its right to rule.

They may not have had a legal right but they had a moral right.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306639008' post='2719793']
I'm not sure how I feel about your declaration.
In one message I am asked if I'm interested in joining you and in another I'm instructed to leave the AA or face ghostbusting measures....

[b]Sir, you have no authority to demand I leave an AA you abandoned long ago.[/b]
I may yet apply, but I remain unconvinced that you all can overcome the obstacles you ran away from before.

We should discuss this matter further, but for now I expect some civility.
[/quote]

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I imagine your chances of getting in are about as high as Ertyy's.

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306641132' post='2719802']
I'm not asking you for anything.
I'll repeat it again:
This is an AA you, and others now claiming some divine right, abandoned.

None of you were forced to leave, none expelled.

Most of you all faced a challenge you preferred to run from than confront. Yet today you claim sovereignty and demand that I vacate.
You all had votes, you all had rank, you all had a voice... and you all [b]chose to resent the name GREMLINS[/b].

Don't lecture me on "helping in the destruction of a once proud and dignified alliance." I worked for a direction you didn't bother to steer.

When I saw policies I disagreed with I voiced a strong opposition, worked and fought for change. That's more than many of you can say.
When the [b]votes[/b] didn't go my way I didn't run, I didn't abandon the flag to which I claim allegiance, I didn't stab anybody in the back. I fought to defend the alliance's decision and I worked to aid even many of those who [i]did[/i] abandon the AA.

The fact remains that this declaration is an affront. Rather than any diplomacy, I have been [b]ordered[/b] off of my flag.

I urge those staging this effort to discuss the matter with me (and all of those retaining the AA).
If you insist on treating me like an common ghost then we're not likely to progress much. I have no desire to exchange nukes with friends because they can't be bothered to be diplomatic but I will, and most of you know that.
[/quote]

This is an excellent attempt to excuse the simple fact that you were one of Ram's staunchest supporters, in both word and deed. You're pathetic.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Crymson

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1305528875' post='2712744']
I believe that treaty was cancelled in the 'paperless' thing, but besides, this is a new alliance, it just happens to have the same name. We are starting with no active treaties.
[/quote]

In the interest of accurate history:
GRE tried to explain that the accords were not a treaty but an internal statement of purpose. I know that I personally discussed this at length on MHA's forum.
MHA declared the accords void. I understand why they made that choice.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1305528875' post='2712744']
We are starting with no active treaties.
[/quote]

I'll be honest, I'm curiously awaiting to see who you will treaty.

Edited May 29, 2011 by supercoolyellow

[janax]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1306645146' post='2719831']
I'll be honest, I'm curiously awaiting to see who you will treaty.
[/quote]


GPA and TDO are my bets

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1306642262' post='2719811']
We are trying to re-install a alliance back to it's best point of time[/quote]
No, you are claiming authority and governing right over an AA and name you [b]chose[/b] to walk away from. You have constructed some *new* government of some *new* alliance and are demanding that current affiliates submit.

[quote]what can you say you have done with it?[/quote]
I've tried many things.
Nonetheless your question is a complete non-sequitor. You have just as little right to "claim" The Gremlins for their stagnancy as you do any other stagnant alliance.
[quote] You were nothing more then a large cog in the machine that brought down the once great Grämlins.[/quote]
Was I a more relevant part than those that ran away? Was I derelict of duty like those [b]empowered to dismantle the government[/b]? You might remember that I pushed many times to squash the vote-weights which kept government entrenched.
[quote]We did not just leave like rats of a sinking ship! Many of us tried every legal approach even some of us tried illegal ones, once the options exhausted themselves what else is their to do but leave when you do not agree with the workings of the government?[/quote]
You all had votes just like everybody else. Kindly drop the pretense that the direction of GRE was the result of anything but our votes (or the apathy of those crying foul now).
[quote] Many of us to likes of Bob J, Inferno and myself stood up to Ram and confront him, But people like you just sat in the background and watched from afar. [/quote]
You should recall that I was among the most active members. What makes you believe that the individuals who left GRE, one-by-one, when they [b]had been united[/b] will resolve those issues that (they claim) caused their failures?
If I didn't support you then it's for the same reasons I'm not sure I can support you now: You offer no solutions.
This doesn't look like a plan to me. It looks like a short-lived tryst with change just long enough to build up some excitement before the same inactive people who fled before will flee again. Perhaps I'm wrong; but I see no evidence which would imply that.

[quote]Are you serious? you need to recheck the old forums! Ram and myself fought on every occasion along with many of the others, I never saw that commitment form you, hell once Ram went inactive why did you not take control and try and steer it yourself?[/quote]
I had neither the time nor the desire. You know as well as I do that The Gremlins was a long-time victim of entrenched, [b]inactive[/b] government. I wasn't going to perpetuate that. What policies [b]specifically[/b] do you think I should have opposed?

[quote]Try to be diplomatic? So far we have been, I do not see any nations attacking you.[/quote]
According to your own policy stated here (and in PM) I one one week to vacate the AA or face ghostbusting. Let's revisit this topic on June 4.

[quote]Stop trying to portray yourself as the white light that was hidden behind Ram's darkness.[/quote]
I did nothing of the sort. Anybody with the inclination can see how fervently I supported many of Ram's controversial ideas. Anybody with access can see how I strongly opposed others internally. Interestingly, you gave up your access when you walked.


I'm not debating whether or not these folks will make a great alliance. Like I said: I know many of you, I consider you friends.
I'm sure you will succeed... for a while, at least.
That doesn't change the fact that you are deliberately imposing government on a alliance.
What gives you the right to assert authority over me?

[janax]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306646431' post='2719844']
<Snip justification for assisting Ram>[/quote]
Tbh, I really hope they roll you. You were one of the most vocal of Ram's lapdogs.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1306644134' post='2719820']
At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I imagine your chances of getting in are about as high as Ertyy's.[/quote]

I'd be willing to bet I could get a vouch for the interview process, but not necessarily get accepted. I suspect they'd want me to account for many things. These are good people, I just think they're wrong on this point.



[quote]This is an excellent attempt to excuse the simple fact that you were one of Ram's staunchest supporters, in both word and deed. You're pathetic.[/quote]
I am willing and able to discuss any of my positions. Ram had a number of excellent ideas and a number of poor ones; much like the government before him.


[quote name='janax' timestamp='1306646718' post='2719845']
Tbh, I really hope they roll you. You were one of the most vocal of Ram's lapdogs.
[/quote]

Thanks for the sentiment: roll people who you disagree with... got it.
Meanwhile, excuse anybody who supported the direction with their votes and/or their apathy.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Matthew PK

[nutkase]

[quote]
No, you are claiming authority and governing right over an AA and name you [b]chose[/b] to walk away from. You have constructed some *new* government of some *new* alliance and are demanding that current affiliates submit.
[/quote]

Of which they mostly without issue or very small one and/or applied to join Grämlins (with all being accepted at this point of time). What does this tell you? Hell you did not even have a functioning government!

[quote]
I've tried many things.
Nonetheless your question is a complete non-sequitor. You have just as little right to "claim" The Gremlins for their stagnancy as you do any other stagnant alliance.
[/quote]

Grämlins did not become stagnated, they self-imploded.

[quote]
Was I a more relevant part than those that ran away? Was I derelict of duty like those [b]empowered to dismantle the government[/b]? You might remember that I pushed many times to squash the vote-weights which kept government entrenched.

You all had votes just like everybody else. Kindly drop the pretense that the direction of GRE was the result of anything but our votes (or the apathy of those crying foul now).
[/quote]

I never got beyond the powers of a general member in terms of voting because Ram made sure I didn't get a seat or move to archon.

[quote]
You should recall that I was among the most active members. What makes you believe that the individuals who left GRE, one-by-one, when they [b]had been united[/b] will resolve those issues that (they claim) caused their failures?
If I didn't support you then it's for the same reasons I'm not sure I can support you now: You offer no solutions.
This doesn't look like a plan to me. It looks like a short-lived tryst with change just long enough to build up some excitement before the same inactive people who fled before will flee again. Perhaps I'm wrong; but I see no evidence which would imply that.
[/quote]

If that becomes a portability, least would be a better ending then the one that was happening. Ram was the main problem within GRE which caused the issues between GRE/TOP and GRE/MHA also the major loss of members, good luck trying to claim it was anything else.

[quote]
I had neither the time nor the desire. You know as well as I do that The Gremlins was a long-time victim of entrenched, [b]inactive[/b] government. I wasn't going to perpetuate that. What policies [b]specifically[/b] do you think I should have opposed?
[/quote]

Where you that blind to Ram's pursuit?



[quote]
I did nothing of the sort. Anybody with the inclination can see how fervently I supported many of Ram's controversial ideas. Anybody with access can see how I strongly opposed others internally. Interestingly, you gave up your access when you walked.
[/quote]

Yet in all that time, nothing was achieved from you claiming that you "strongly opposed it"

Edited May 29, 2011 by nutkase

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1306648238' post='2719853']
Of which they mostly without issue or very small one and/or applied to join Grämlins (with all being accepted at this point of time). What does this tell you? Hell you did not even have a functioning government!


Grämlins did not become stagnated, they self-imploded.[/quote]

Some of those ruling this new group had the authority to disband the alliance. They chose not to do so. Instead they left the alliance or left the planet.
We tried (and failed) to do something different with the IRON situation. Then, rather than running, I accepted the consequences. It's too bad it ended up the way it did... but that's another discussion.

Just because you consider an alliance dysfunctional doesn't give you the right to assume control of their AA. [u]That is the sole point at issue here today.[/u]


[quote]I never got beyond the powers of a general member in terms of voting because Ram made sure I didn't get a seat or move to archon. [/quote]

Ram never vetoed any promotion requests for you. If the [b]votes[/b] didn't go your way what does that say?


[quote]If that becomes a portability, least would be a better ending then the one that was happening. Ram was the main problem within GRE which caused the issues between GRE/TOP and GRE/MHA also the major loss of members, good luck trying to claim it was anything else. [/quote]

Not really in question but some members of TOP certainly did their part to strain the relationship. All those members who were unhappy and left? Where were they when the votes were cast?


[quote]Where you that blind to Ram's pursuit?
Yet in all that time, nothing was achieved from you claiming that you "strongly opposed it"
[/quote]


What is [b]"it"[/b] that you're talking about?
I opposed some things just as I supported some things.
It seems rather presumptuous of you to claim that "nothing was achieved" when, by your own admission, you left when your opposition wasn't backed.
Again: I supported squashing rank differences (and, incidentally, so did Ram); it was the opposition of the existing entrenched upper-ranks that halted that movement. I could probably dig up the discussions on this in which many of the leaders of your new alliance opposed this because it also diminished their own authority.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Matthew PK

[nutkase]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306649801' post='2719861']
Ram never vetoed any promotion requests for you. If the [b]votes[/b] didn't go your way what does that say?
[/quote]

When Ram found out I would be running for Pra, he made sure I had a running partner and queried people to see that they would vote for him.

[Crymson]

I get the distinct feeling, Matthew, that all of your nonsense arguments on this matter towards the Grämlins will fall upon deaf ears. You're far less clever than you think. All who interacted with you on even a semi-regular basis when Ram was in government are very aware that you were an ardent advocate of Ram. That won't go away just because you want it to.

Just give up. You're embarrassing yourself.

[Kzoppistan]

Matthew, when you acted as lead mediator in the peace talks between Zenith, Grämlins, and Fark, I gained a tremendous amount of respect for you. So much so that I studiously avoided any of the future posts you made defending the policies of Grämlins against the swelling tide of public opinion against you and Ram.

I would advise you now to avoid dragging this debate out any further in the public sphere. Instead of focusing on the de jure aspects of the revival, adapt yourself to the de facto and realize that, if you wish to remain within the Grämlins power structure, you will have accept this turn of events with a modicum of grace. Congratulate them and work on the leaders of this new government and ask them to view many of your qualities (namely, loyalty) as attributes that could help this new configuration in it's desire to restore the Grämlins to their former glory.

Ram's defining characteristic, regardless of what good he may have had, was absolute stubbornness. A tree that does not bend will break, as we've seen here. Do not follow that path. Put your bitterness aside, if you have any, and instead look at your own personal situation now as separate from being the flag carrier of Ram's decisions. That time is gone, realize that a little bit of personal dexterity and political deftness (with perhaps some humbleness) rather than surly opposition, will reap you many benefits.

Good luck.

[HellAngel]

I wanted to post but Kzopp said it better than i probably could. Now i already gave you a lot of leeway in regards to being on the AA... we had a 7 day grace period but i thought it would probably be fairer to wait until you have actually read one of my pms and know whats going on. Now, decide where you want to stand. Apply or be considered a ghost.


[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306649801' post='2719861']

Just because you consider an alliance dysfunctional doesn't give you the right to assume control of their AA. [u]That is the sole point at issue here today.[/u]

[/quote]

Just wanted you to know... thats exactly the point of this whole thread. We do not care about that. Thats whats new and thats why it's not a coup, or a new alliance. It's a revolution, if you want.

Edited May 29, 2011 by HellAngel

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Just because you consider an alliance dysfunctional doesn't give you the right to assume control of their AA.[/quote]
No. What gives us that right is that [b]everybody[/b] considers Ramlins 'dysfunctional', in most cases to the point of no longer considering it to really be an alliance, and supports our assertion to own the AA over yours.

[quote]Again: I supported squashing rank differences (and, incidentally, so did Ram)[/quote]
That doesn't really help your cause, because the resistance of the Archons to him was something which delayed Ram's ascension – one major reason, I suspect, why he wanted to get rid of it. We recognised the danger he posed and worked to limit it through the legal avenues available – refusing to promote him. He, and you, wanted to remove that limit – and look what happened when he managed to persuade enough people to pull him to the other side of the fence!

[quote]Ram had a number of excellent ideas[/quote]
Quite. Zero is a number.

[quote]If the votes didn't go your way what does that say?[/quote]
If I knew what manipulation techniques Ram was using on the electorate, I'm sure I could win a lot more elections myself. It is one of the abiding mysteries of the fall of the alliance how he could get people to consistently vote for him despite the clear damage he was doing. (His other mental game, aggravating opponents to the point they gave up and left, was less opaque.) What it shows, more than anything else, is that faith in democracy and the democratic process is misplaced, because one person with knowledge of psychology and the amoral mind to exploit it can subvert the whole process. The fact that thirty of us are here now explicitly disavowing any support of his policies – which were put in place with far less than a thirty vote majority – should demonstrate that.

(For example, what did he say to whom to get promoted? What did he say to Blackdigital to convince him to stay and support Ram, when he (BD) had had enough and was planning to leave before I was? What did he say to win elections when all our allies were saying he was ruining relations?)

[quote]Some of those ruling this new group had the authority to disband the alliance. They chose not to do so. Instead they left the alliance or left the planet. [/quote]
Yes, we did. In fact you can lay the blame for that at my feet: I was on the Dark Council and said that I would not vote for a disbandment, because it would be unfair on those who wished to remain. In retrospect that was perhaps a mistake, I gave people too much credit in terms of them being able to see what was happening and work against it. But can you imagine the reaction that disbanding what was still a 5 million NS alliance over a supposed deviation from the true path would have got? I don't think I would be a popular man in CN after that.

I hope that you can see the light, Matthew. From your early days in Grämlins, I know that you are a good man, and I hope that you can come out from under the spell of Ramirus which you have been trapped in for well over a year now. The man is gone, hopefully his influence over you and others is too. But you will not win an argument on our assertion to control the AA, particularly not two weeks after we asserted it.

[Aeternos Astramora]

The reasons the new Gre has the authority to invade the old Gre is because they have the military power, international recognition, and public good will on their side.

I believe this might be the first invasion in CN history. There have been coups from within, but never hostile invasions from other nations

[Baldr]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306639008' post='2719793']
We should discuss this matter further, but for now I expect some civility.
[/quote]

You weren't civil when you were one of the ones screaming "Unconditional Surrender Or War Forever"

[quote]Thanks for the sentiment: roll people who you disagree with... got it.[/quote]

Ramlins tried to to do just that, which is how you ended up in this situation. Personally, I hope you fight. What I expect is that you'll either leave the AA, delete, or hide in PM.

[quote]We tried (and failed) to do something different with the IRON situation. Then, rather than running, I accepted the consequences. [/quote]

Looks to me like you are here crying about the consequences.

[quote]Just because you consider an alliance dysfunctional doesn't give you the right to assume control of their AA.[/quote]

You tried to assume control of IRON and DAWN by way of "Unconditional Surrender". If they agreed to that, then you got to run their alliance any way you wanted. You claimed that you could do it because you had the power to enforce it. And you claimed that you would agree to unconditional surrender if you were in a situation where you couldn't win.

And now, you are in a position where you can't win.

[HellAngel]

Great reply Baldr. Excellent points.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1306687575' post='2720052']
You weren't civil when you were one of the ones screaming "Unconditional Surrender Or War Forever"[/quote]

I disagree.
You and others completely opposed my position, many called for forced disbandment while others called for EZI for everyone on the AA.
We had a disagreement, an extremely significant one, but I was at all times civil. I would be surprised if anybody (except maybe Crymson) who dealt with me one-on-one to discuss the issue found me uncivil or abrasive. I'd bet even Janax, who has here called for my destruction, will have to admit that I was quite civil on his forum.
Of course they thought I was dead-wrong, but correctness and civility are separate attributes.



[quote]Ramlins tried to to do just that, which is how you ended up in this situation. Personally, I hope you fight. What I expect is that you'll either leave the AA, delete, or hide in PM.[/quote]

It would be a mistake to convince yourself that GRE's problems began with the IRON situation.
I don't expect to fight because I know there is much to discuss with these people. But if I must I will, and they all know me well enough to know that's true.
In this case, I was out of my office since May 13th and only yesterday began reading built-up messages.

[quote]Looks to me like you are here crying about the consequences.[/quote]

What's happening here today is little to-do with the IRON situation. Many of these people left long before.


[quote]You tried to assume control of IRON and DAWN by way of "Unconditional Surrender". If they agreed to that, then you got to run their alliance any way you wanted. You claimed that you could do it because you had the power to enforce it.[/quote]

We made it quite clear that we were asking nothing of the sort... but that isn't the topic of this thread.

[quote]And you claimed that you would agree to unconditional surrender if you were in a situation where you couldn't win.[/quote]

I stated I had no problems with unconditional surrender as I repeatedly explained it to you. Additionally, the demand was made following a war which involved us solely due to IRON's aggression.
Again, this declaration has little to do with the IRON situation. If HellAngel and BobJanova were declaring war on me and demanding things as a result of the war with IRON this would be a radically different discussion.

[quote]And now, you are in a position where you can't win.[/quote]

I [i]can[/i] win. You just have no idea what I want.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306696927' post='2720157']
Additionally, the demand was made following a war which involved us solely due to IRON's aggression.
[/quote]

Sigh... there's another one of Ramirus's lines. When was it you said you weren't one of his disciples?

[SiCkO]

[quote name='Matthew PK' timestamp='1306696927' post='2720157']

I [i]can[/i] win. You just have no idea what I want.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure you aren't in any position to get anything more than a number of nations piled on you. If that constitutes as victory, I'm quite sure a number of people would be more than willing to oblige you.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1306697198' post='2720162']
Sigh... there's another one of Ramirus's lines. When was it you said you weren't one of his disciples?
[/quote]

On the contrary. I very clearly stated that I strongly supported many of his positions.

Contrastingly, you may recall that I refused to be aggressive with TOP despite your actions and Ram's opinion. This was such an issue that I invited internal trials for treason. Luckily it never [i]officially[/i] came to war between GRE and TOP (despite [b]your and Ram's[/b] personal efforts).


[quote name='SiCkO' timestamp='1306697349' post='2720166']
I'm pretty sure you aren't in any position to get anything more than a number of nations piled on you. If that constitutes as victory, I'm quite sure a number of people would be more than willing to oblige you.
[/quote]


I'm in a perfect position to have good discussions with old friends to understand their road-map and intent. I have no interest in power or war-victory (and in good measure, because I am unlikely to secure either). Above all this group calling themselves GRE is a community; I just take issue with their approach here.
I will continue to discuss it with them. It would be a mistake for them to blind themselves to the [b]sum[/b] of their errors which led here; even though it is convenient and easy for them to blame Ram. They are intelligent enough to know this.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Matthew PK