Hyperbad Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1305628887' post='2713582'] Dont you think it's pretentious for you to say there were a number of things possible when you actually have no clue what its like to argue with him and never were in Gremlins, therefor having no knowledge about the possibilities of the charter?[/quote] Yes it is pretentious. Would you though say I'm wrong in the assertion and that you tried literally everything possible to achieve change? Keep in mind that my post covered not only the possibility of using different methods but also different styles within those same methods. [quote]I dont say there weren't any possibilities left. Maybe i just didnt see them, but when you have been fighting something for about a year and the general consensus appears to say you are wrong, you just give up after some time. I left and went to TOP to let Gremlins go their merry way, which they did by going paperless and declaring eternal war on IRON (lol). It's not like there weren't many people convinced Rams way was the right one.[/quote] I'm not judging this group of Gramlins for quitting. We've all striven for causes at some point in our lives where we made the conscious decision to just move on our of a momentary belief any effort will see no fruit. I've only judged the means chosen to return and effect change. Edited May 17, 2011 by Hyperbad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroofTime55 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1305640021' post='2713626'] That argument is only legitimate if used by actual members inside their own alliance. When you all gave up membership you ceased to have a say in the running of Gramlins. As non members of Gramlins you have as much right to seize control of Gramlins as you would of MK, FARK, MHA or anyone else. [/quote] History or not, Gramlins was reduced to an unaligned micro. They were basically squatting the AA at this point. If 50 people want to come back and overrule and oust Ram and his little club, then that's fine. There's nothing to stop it, and Ram has been useless since forever. What this is, is an internal matter between members of Gramlins, including the new influx, and nothing else. Technically, nobody on the outside has any right to judge what happens on the inside of Gramlins, but good luck enforcing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1305662619' post='2713786'] Yes it is pretentious. Would you though say I'm wrong in the assertion and that you tried literally everything possible to achieve change? Keep in mind that my post covered not only the possibility of using different methods but also different styles within those same methods. [/quote] I'd say i exhausted all my possibilities within the range of my personal abilities. You can't ask for more, can you? [quote] I'm not judging this group of Gramlins for quitting. We've all striven for causes at some point in our lives where we made the conscious decision to just move on our of a momentary belief any effort will see no fruit. I've only judged the means chosen to return and effect change. [/quote] Which other options would there have been? Of course we could have all joined the Ramlins and try to change it from within, but our application would have been at the mercy of Ramirus. Who, of course, would have denied us entry, or at least powerful positions within the alliance. We could have created a different alliance. But we didnt want to abandon our name and our reputation to a lunatic. Take it as you will, this is our alliance. We created it from scratch back in '06. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1305658369' post='2713747'] Wasn't there another alliance created by Enderland first? I believe it was Kronos but could possibly be another alliance. not entirely certain bout the name. [/quote] The Kronos splinter happened long before Ramirus took over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattski133 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1305641774' post='2713634'] I'm not mad, I'm just saying the rationale for the war was ridiculous. We're fine, thanks for asking. [/quote] I give them credit for actually fighting us without whining the whole time . Gre has the potential be a rare success story around here, so that's cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1305658369' post='2713747'] Wasn't there another alliance created by Enderland first? I believe it was Kronos but could possibly be another alliance. not entirely certain bout the name. [/quote] I don't think Kronos was an attempt to recreate Gre. I think it was more of an attempt to just go do something different by a few people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eumirbago Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1305613976' post='2713529'] All the talk of Ramirus made me think of the poor Filipino Heroes who joined Gre, they all ended up fighting to the last then deleting mostly...very sad [/quote] Oh that's where they went.... I was planning on joining the alliance so that I could grow with fellow Filipinos, but they just suddenly went away On the other hand, I wish the Gramlins luck and may you prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy canuck Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1305640021' post='2713626'] That argument is only legitimate if used by actual members inside their own alliance. When you all gave up membership you ceased to have a say in the running of Gramlins. As non members of Gramlins you have as much right to seize control of Gramlins as you would of MK, FARK, MHA or anyone else. [/quote] A real world example is apt. Under International Law recognition of a State by other States is very important. I see a direct analogy here. Much of Planet Bob politics operates as a matter of mutual recognition. Someone could pop to tomorrow and claim to be MK but that claim would be meaningless if the rest of Planet Bob didnt recognize them as such. Here we have a group that claims to be the Gremlins and, except for a few voices of dissent, that claim is universally recognized. Another test of the viablility of a State is the ability to assert and enforce its claims. Under this test there is no viable contender to dispute that this group is indeed the Gremlins. So for all practical purposes you are raising a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperbad Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1305664553' post='2713803'] I'd say i exhausted all my possibilities within the range of my personal abilities. You can't ask for more, can you?[/quote] I suppose that depends upon how one defines personal abilities. Going outside of what one is comfortable with or attempting what one believes themself to not be capable of and experimenting is certainly something to consider what all other obvious options have failed. The issue here would largely be because one hasn't typically done such things they might not be familiar with all of the opportunities said methods present. So really I can't rightly say just yet whether more can be asked, assuming you mean reasonably so. [quote]Which other options would there have been? Of course we could have all joined the Ramlins and try to change it from within, but our application would have been at the mercy of Ramirus. Who, of course, would have denied us entry, or at least powerful positions within the alliance.[/quote] I'm not one capable of seeing everything so at this moment am limited to seeing negotiations or waiting for a proper disbandment. Those two options off the top of my head might leave a bad taste in your mouth or even be viewed as impossible in the case of the former, maybe it was even attempted but they nonetheless are options. I'm sure we could come up with other options or different ways of proceeding given time. Instead the chosen course of action was to set up a separate alliance under the same name and essentially threaten an alliance war should they fail to either join you or leave. Detaching yourself from this, might you see why others are a bit concerned over it being not only effectively accomplished but with significant backing in political and military strength. Despite any subtle nuances one might differentiate this with other incident past or future can you see how the actions taken might make others feel a bit uneasy outside of any questions one has from any other perspective? People tend to try and emulate the accomplishments of their predecessors modifying it towards their aims. [quote]We could have created a different alliance. But we didnt want to abandon our name and our reputation to a lunatic.[/quote] You already did when you all left. How you feel about that fact is another matter entirely though and I think is what you mean to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 If any other alliance is so insecure about their support [i]within their own AA[/i] that they would realistically worry about this sort of thing happening to them, then they are not really much of an alliance in the first place. One reason why this would never have been viable last year is that there was still a Ramlins that was actually an alliance then, and your objections would have been valid – it is the choice of the membership to take that path and we made our choice to leave when we had done as much as we could to prevent it. But what was left was not an alliance. It was ten or so inactive nations – two of whom are now on our side of the fence anyway. I mean, really, there isn't even any sort of statement from Ramlins contesting our assertion of ownership. [quote]I suppose that depends upon how one defines personal abilities. Going outside of what one is comfortable with or attempting what one believes themself to not be capable of and experimenting is certainly something to consider what all other obvious options have failed. The issue here would largely be because one hasn't typically done such things they might not be familiar with all of the opportunities said methods present. So really I can't rightly say just yet whether more can be asked, assuming you mean reasonably so.[/quote] That was an awful lot of words to say nothing. But the position was fairly clear. He couldn't be kicked under the charter, he had enough support to win elections (somehow – I still don't understand that, but he has a way of talking to different people in different ways to make each one think he is on their side) and disbanding the alliance would have been unfair to all the other members. There really was no legal thing that could have been done. And an illegal way would surely have been as 'bad' to you as this revival? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1305666517' post='2713829'] I suppose that depends upon how one defines personal abilities. Going outside of what one is comfortable with or attempting what one believes themself to not be capable of and experimenting is certainly something to consider what all other obvious options have failed. The issue here would largely be because one hasn't typically done such things they might not be familiar with all of the opportunities said methods present. So really I can't rightly say just yet whether more can be asked, assuming you mean reasonably so. [/quote] I am still only a human, and quite honestly tired of getting judged by you. Im gonna rescind to my position that you have not a single lonely clue what you are talking about. (If i was god, i could have prevented it. If i was me, i couldnt. Do you want to find the exact point between those two where ability matches possibility? You wont find it.) [quote] I'm not one capable of seeing everything so at this moment am limited to seeing negotiations or waiting for a proper disbandment. Those two options off the top of my head might leave a bad taste in your mouth or even be viewed as impossible in the case of the former, maybe it was even attempted but they nonetheless are options. I'm sure we could come up with other options or different ways of proceeding given time. [/quote] Time is deciding factor. I wasnt going to wait until all people who pledge support to our cause went into catatonic inactivity again. And again, you wrap your thoughts in complicated words but still appear to miss the wider aspects. I'm now going to assume you are only a show-off. [quote] Instead the chosen course of action was to set up a separate alliance under the same name and essentially threaten an alliance war should they fail to either join you or leave. Detaching yourself from this, might you see why others are a bit concerned over it being not only effectively accomplished but with significant backing in political and military strength. Despite any subtle nuances one might differentiate this with other incident past or future can you see how the actions taken might make others feel a bit uneasy outside of any questions one has from any other perspective? People tend to try and emulate the accomplishments of their predecessors modifying it towards their aims. [/quote] I hope we made some people feel uneasy. Breaking boundries was always one of our core strength. Take nothing for granted. [quote] You already did when you all left. How you feel about that fact is another matter entirely though and I think is what you mean to [/quote] You apparently cant go straight, so you back up and go back to where we were ten pages ago. All my comments were under the assumption of a reformation happening. We all had left and we were about to make a reformation... why leave our name to Ramlins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperbad Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1305669639' post='2713852'] If any other alliance is so insecure about their support [i]within their own AA[/i] that they would realistically worry about this sort of thing happening to them, then they are not really much of an alliance in the first place.[/quote] There are many ways with which one might either seek to destabilize another or profit at their expense. To absorb the actions of others and consider how they were done along with how they might be performed in the future is merely prudence. Many of the things in our society have formed through such means, albeit it largely because of clear examples where a failure to consider things led to significant if not distastrous results of a negative sort. In the eyes of many individuals some examples might be finding ways to secure protection against raiders or to dissuade others from launching assaults on ones alliance by means of obtaning military treaties. Further still might be establishing the means with which one might catch a spy. Should one wait until further examples of a course of action are seen to consider possible recourse leaves you open to rash reactionary responses and thus reduces ones capacity to deal effectively with a perceived threat. Personally I would charge that anyone who hasn't made such considerations on any action taken by others is a reckless fool in thinking such a thing could never happen to them. It increases the chances something damaging could happen to you with greater effect than if you had already contemplated said situation previously. I personally have seen and taken part in this sort of thing more brutish attitudes elsewhere and am fully aware of how destructive it can be if it should snowball. [quote]One reason why this would never have been viable last year is that there was still a Ramlins that was actually an alliance then, and your objections would have been valid – it is the choice of the membership to take that path and we made our choice to leave when we had done as much as we could to prevent it. [b]But what was left was not an alliance.[/b] It was ten or so inactive nations – two of whom are now on our side of the fence anyway. I mean, really, there isn't even any sort of statement from Ramlins contesting our assertion of ownership.[/quote] My view is that they are an alliance while yours is they are not. We're not going to convince each other. Let's not get into semantics here if we might avoid it. We'll move on from my calling them an alliance and your dispute of it and say "your cluster of nations will effectively be declaring war on another cluster of nations who..." with the rest being filled in by what else I had previously stated. [quote]But the position was fairly clear. He couldn't be kicked under the charter, he had enough support to win elections (somehow – I still don't understand that, but he has a way of talking to different people in different ways to make each one think he is on their side) and disbanding the alliance would have been unfair to all the other members. There really was no legal thing that could have been done. [/quote] I hadn't asserted change would be easy to come by but perhaps one requires time and new opportunities in order to convince others. [quote]And an illegal way would surely have been as 'bad' to you as this revival?[/quote] I suppose I should clarify that legality or illegality don't really form my view around matters. A legal act could still be heinous to be if for example our nations were feudal states where we had annexed others then given our lords first rights with brides willingly or by forcible compulsion I would find that appalling and worthy of condemnation despite being legal. On the other hand I'm not quite certain where I stand on illegal means to achieve what I might view a favorable end. I certainly would not like that illegal means were used and would in fact find it to undermine any effort I might have otherwise supported. On the other hand I suppose there are such things I might be less opposed to. I suppose I don't have a clear answer excepting a personal preference to avoid any illegal means. [quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1305672013' post='2713866'] I am still only a human, and quite honestly tired of getting judged by you. Im gonna rescind to my position that you have not a single lonely clue what you are talking about. (If i was god, i could have prevented it. If i was me, i couldnt. Do you want to find the exact point between those two where ability matches possibility? You wont find it.) [/quote] Should you wish to end that line of the discussion we may do that. If you wish for a clearer answer of where I stand on it feel free to expand on the question asked where my concern with is rests. [quote]Time is deciding factor. I wasnt going to wait until all people who pledge support to our cause went into catatonic inactivity again.[/quote] From what I have read it hasn't been definite at any point that this was the only means to achieve what you all want. It's certainly understandable that some options aren't appealing to a point one wishes not to either look into or act in that manner. There were other options besides the joining of Gramlins which you had mentioned. [quote]You apparently cant go straight, so you back up and go back to where we were ten pages ago. All my comments were under the assumption of a reformation happening. We all had left and we were about to make a reformation... why leave our name to Ramlins? [/quote] I apologize for I had actually phrased that portion of my post poorly and it really didn't convey what I was thinking or intending to say. What you had quoted was actually meant to be the lead up to a point I had forgot to edit in before submitting and I should have left out anyway as the more I thought about where I was going the more I realized it was touched on briefly already by yourselves. What time frame are you talking when you say you were about to make a reformation? At the time where people were trickling out you all had an idea the reformation would occur or do you mean something else? Edited May 17, 2011 by Hyperbad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroofTime55 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I think it comes down to asking who is the rightful heir to the culture, is it the former members who abandoned that culture in it's hour of need, or is it the man who did everything in his power to destroy it? Did the former members relinquish that aspect of their identity by leaving? Was it retained due to the circumstances by which they left? Did Ram relinquish his claim by betraying the culture and arguably the essence of the alliance? I think it's somewhat incorrect to say that only strict legal constructs are what should be applied. An alliance is more than a set of rules and regulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newhotness Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 All these technicalities dont matter cuz they did it and are going to continue to do what they want. I just wonder where they will stand a year from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 I think we're popular. Who jelly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kencojenko Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 (edited) This is long overdue and i look forward to helping restore The Grämlins' name to it's previous glory. Edited May 18, 2011 by kencojenko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote name='Ejayrazz' timestamp='1305681413' post='2713975'] I think we're popular. Who jelly? [/quote] I'm Jelly COME AT ME BRO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1305683844' post='2714028'] I'm Jelly COME AT ME BRO! [/quote] Oh you just went and did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote name='Ejayrazz' timestamp='1305683911' post='2714029'] Oh you just went and did it. [/quote] Behind the gym at lunchtime, just you and me. Winner takes the lunch money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Buscemi Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1305683844' post='2714028'] I'm Jelly COME AT ME BRO! [/quote] umad? There, now we got all the latest ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KagetheSecond Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 I'm super gelatinous jello jelly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1305687940' post='2714097'] umad? There, now we got all the latest ones. [/quote] FURIOUS bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan V Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Congratulations on taking back the alliance affiliation that probably rightly belongs to you guys. Here is to working on expunging the taint from your alliance's history that accrued under a certain regime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellAngel Posted May 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 [quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1305673780' post='2713881'] From what I have read it hasn't been definite at any point that this was the only means to achieve what you all want. It's certainly understandable that some options aren't appealing to a point one wishes not to either look into or act in that manner. There were other options besides the joining of Gramlins which you had mentioned. [/quote] I also pointed out why they werent applicable, whats your point? [quote] I apologize for I had actually phrased that portion of my post poorly and it really didn't convey what I was thinking or intending to say. What you had quoted was actually meant to be the lead up to a point I had forgot to edit in before submitting and I should have left out anyway as the more I thought about where I was going the more I realized it was touched on briefly already by yourselves. What time frame are you talking when you say you were about to make a reformation? At the time where people were trickling out you all had an idea the reformation would occur or do you mean something else? [/quote] Well, it takes a while to get everyone back together. There was a core group that was available from the start, but most people needed to be contacted or even brought back to planet bob. All in all we took 3 months to get everything together. (and i still wonder that opsec was kept as well as it was) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Buscemi Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 (edited) Certainly an interesting piece of politics here. I wonder how you will enforce democracy in an alliance that wasn't founded on it (overthrow, possibly forceful). (edit, yep democracy, just read the charter). I do wonder why not just form your own alliance, but I can understand why you'd want to reform the image and alliance you all once were apart of and loved. Gre will always have a special place in history of Planet Bob, you tech whores! Good luck with this. I do feel a little bit bad for Ram considering he got elected and now is just thrown out, but hard to feel sorry for a guy who's such a !@#$% bag. 15-20 other 100K nations want to join me in overthrowing Mike/Arexes/GFL? Edited May 18, 2011 by Steve Buscemi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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