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Declaration of Reexistance


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[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1305561106' post='2712862']
Same people, same name, same friends. Its good when all the problems of a democratic alliance are put at the feet of one person. Its neat, tidy and absolves from blame everyone who [b]enabled bad things to happen or did little to stop them.[/b][/quote]

Pretty much this, those same "true gramlins" were mostly the ones in tears in here during the Iron fiasco. Wont see me yapping about Ram being dethroned but no matter how proudly they beat their chests they simply cant change facts, particularly the bolded part.

Edited by Thorgrum
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Tell me what else we could have done to try to stop him. I called for alliance disbandment and it was rejected.

You guys should hold your breath for a second and think about if you are even in any position to judge.


edit: Also, arent we exactly "doing something about it" with this? I know it's way too late to change facts, but the possibility to revive an alliance doesnt only depend on how much the former incarnation sucks...

Edited by HellAngel
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[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1305590895' post='2713260']
Tell me what else we could have done to try to stop him. I called for alliance disbandment and it was rejected.[/quote]
You could have hung in there and kept up the campaigns against him changing tactics if necessary as necessary. It could be as simple as changing the way one posts, picking ones battles more selectively, adopting a similar platform but with any self-destructive parts removed to capitalize on the support he apparently had. There are a number of things which were possible. Some times our persosnal involvement clouds that.

[quote]edit: Also, arent we exactly "doing something about it" with this? I know it's way too late to change facts, but the possibility to revive an alliance doesnt only depend on how much the former incarnation sucks... [/quote]
This is only a guess but I believe the above argument comes from a "in leaving any [lack of a proper term or phrase] was thereby surrendered." I wouldn't personally say right because that's always been so loosely defined by everyone that no one any more really shares a definition. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. People cherry pick that going both ways.

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[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1305590895' post='2713260']
Tell me what else we could have done to try to stop him. I called for alliance disbandment and it was rejected.

You guys should hold your breath for a second and think about if you are even in any position to judge.


edit: Also, arent we exactly "doing something about it" with this? I know it's way too late to change facts, but the possibility to revive an alliance doesnt only depend on how much the former incarnation sucks...
[/quote]

I read all available information to me as a Templar when I was a gramlin. The forums contained a great deal of historic data which included discussions on ramirus before he ever became an archon, or templar for that matter. You all knew you had a cancer, most of you chose not to operate and cut it out. I wish you all the success in the world, sincerely I hope it pans out but the back slapping is a little silly, really we arent here in a reexistance thread because of Ramirus, hes just the fall guy.

Oh and to your first sentence, if I recall the procedures the vote could have been called there were enough archons at the time who supported it. Would it have passed? We will never know will we? We certainly know what happened when that vote wasnt called, most everyone bailed and he kept the place going. Its just funny as hell to read is all, its highly entertaining and thats why we are all here afterall.

Good luck out there

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I love these people who act as if they know how they'd go about solving a situation without actually experiencing it and seeing/feeling the complications within. Tell us how you'd stop American slavery, OR HOW you'd put Hitler to justice!

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I like this a lot, but the cynic in me is asking why didn't you do this a long time ago before all the !@#$ happened or before everything couldn't be salvaged?

Didn't see much abou boting being referred in your charter, is the old voting structure still in place?
If I didn't get my facts wrong, part of your problem was the voting structure was so weighted towards those in charge that those not in power would find it difficult to change things?

What are your plans to prevent something like this happening again?
It's probably none of my business, but as a Harmlin (yes, i know it's dead, but still it's something i treasure)it would be nice to know that the new version won't suffer the same fate.

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[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1305602836' post='2713421']
So how long will it take The Gramlins to join XX? A Couple of weeks?
[/quote]

I very highly doubt it, it all depends on who would befriend us in the first place.


[quote name='pigsticker' timestamp='1305603074' post='2713426']
I like this a lot, but the cynic in me is asking why didn't you do this a long time ago before all the !@#$ happened or before everything couldn't be salvaged?

Didn't see much abou boting being referred in your charter, is the old voting structure still in place?
If I didn't get my facts wrong, part of your problem was the voting structure was so weighted towards those in charge that those not in power would find it difficult to change things?

What are your plans to prevent something like this happening again?
It's probably none of my business, but as a Harmlin (yes, i know it's dead, but still it's something i treasure)it would be nice to know that the new version won't suffer the same fate.
[/quote]

Weight voting has gone out the window, especially since we don't have "Templar" and other ranks no more. Just Application, Full Member and Conclave with Full Members and Conclave having a vote a piece. We also have a part where members can start a expulsion claim which needed to be followed with 4 or so members agreeing.

This is very far form the old Grämlins system from memory.

We all took on Ram and what had become Grämlins in splinter groups, this is the first time that we became one and had the clout to move in force and change things.

Hope that answered your doubt.

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[quote name='pigsticker' timestamp='1305603074' post='2713426']
I like this a lot, but the cynic in me is asking why didn't you do this a long time ago before all the !@#$ happened or before everything couldn't be salvaged?

Didn't see much abou boting being referred in your charter, is the old voting structure still in place?
If I didn't get my facts wrong, part of your problem was the voting structure was so weighted towards those in charge that those not in power would find it difficult to change things?

What are your plans to prevent something like this happening again?
It's probably none of my business, but as a Harmlin (yes, i know it's dead, but still it's something i treasure)it would be nice to know that the new version won't suffer the same fate.
[/quote]

I think the main thing that we didn't act upon is that 1. We all left in different places. And we all went elsewhere. BobbyJ at VE, HellAngel at TOP and so on. The first major Grouping came in the form of The Ninjas. Which currently hold the base of the new Grämlin members. Which Ejay and Egwater designed to be a follow off the ninjas but with everything they felt was wrong with it.

The Ninjas charter became a sort of foundation for modification. Considering none of you know what the Ninjas where about apart from the random Goon declaring and getting spanked, you wouldn't realize that we were all equals down to the very last extent. Even having a 'conclave' sort of system never showed any rank. The only difference here to that is the Ninjas charter was designed for a small alliance. This alliance being bigger the conclave needs some extra strength, but NOT ENOUGH to really assert some controlling dominance over the AA. That was the plan. New members only have the disadvantage of knowing that there are Older members who influence better. but that is nothing you can really contain.

And yes Harmlin is dead, No CPR attempts will be given. But the bond still is there kind of and we appreciate MHA DoS and Concern and to answer the concern you gave. We don't know what will happen. It is quite possible we could implode upon each other and its quite possible we can restore the former glory of the Grämlins. But we are 100% committed to working to get the old ideals combined with a fresh new look at Grämlins.

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[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1305601481' post='2713407']
I read all available information to me as a Templar when I was a gramlin. The forums contained a great deal of historic data which included discussions on ramirus before he ever became an archon, or templar for that matter. You all knew you had a cancer, most of you chose not to operate and cut it out. I wish you all the success in the world, sincerely I hope it pans out but the back slapping is a little silly, really we arent here in a reexistance thread because of Ramirus, hes just the fall guy.

Oh and to your first sentence, if I recall the procedures the vote could have been called there were enough archons at the time who supported it. Would it have passed? We will never know will we? We certainly know what happened when that vote wasnt called, most everyone bailed and he kept the place going. Its just funny as hell to read is all, its highly entertaining and thats why we are all here afterall.

Good luck out there
[/quote]

You are incorrect, there WAS a vote about disbandment (which resulted 60-40 against) and there were also votes about kicking Ramirus. You have no idea how much we fought against each other about him. I know i decided to leave when they promoted Ram to archon (although only did that at a later point, when he was elected Judicator).

Don't pinpoint this all on the "old guard", Ramirus had plenty of supporters. Why do you think it was so hard for us to act?

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[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1305599769' post='2713391']
You could have hung in there and kept up the campaigns against him changing tactics if necessary as necessary. It could be as simple as changing the way one posts, picking ones battles more selectively, adopting a similar platform but with any self-destructive parts removed to capitalize on the support he apparently had. There are a number of things which were possible. Some times our persosnal involvement clouds that.
[/quote]

Dont you think it's pretentious for you to say there were a number of things possible when you actually have no clue what its like to argue with him and never were in Gremlins, therefor having no knowledge about the possibilities of the charter?

I dont say there weren't any possibilities left. Maybe i just didnt see them, but when you have been fighting something for about a year and the general consensus appears to say you are wrong, you just give up after some time. I left and went to TOP to let Gremlins go their merry way, which they did by going paperless and declaring eternal war on IRON (lol).

It's not like there weren't many people convinced Rams way was the right one.


[quote]
This is only a guess but I believe the above argument comes from a "in leaving any [lack of a proper term or phrase] was thereby surrendered." I wouldn't personally say right because that's always been so loosely defined by everyone that no one any more really shares a definition. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. People cherry pick that going both ways.
[/quote]

Yeah i guess.

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[quote name='janax' timestamp='1305563151' post='2712871']
And those that allowed it to happen, are rectifying that now.

See?
[/quote]
That argument is only legitimate if used by actual members inside their own alliance. When you all gave up membership you ceased to have a say in the running of Gramlins. As non members of Gramlins you have as much right to seize control of Gramlins as you would of MK, FARK, MHA or anyone else.

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[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1305640021' post='2713626']
That argument is only legitimate if used by actual members inside their own alliance. When you all gave up membership you ceased to have a say in the running of Gramlins. As non members of Gramlins you have as much right to seize control of Gramlins as you would of MK, FARK, MHA or anyone else.
[/quote]
Who determines what rights they do and don't have?

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[quote name='Ada069' timestamp='1305619425' post='2713551']
The Ninjas charter became a sort of foundation for modification. Considering none of you know what the Ninjas where about apart from the random Goon declaring and getting spanked, you wouldn't realize that we were all equals down to the very last extent.
[/quote]
While I support the reformation of GRE, please do not attempt to retcon the Ninja's moronic war against us as "a random goon declaring [on us] and getting spanked".

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[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1305641240' post='2713630']
While I support the reformation of GRE, please do not attempt to retcon the Ninja's moronic war against us as "a random goon declaring [on us] and getting spanked".
[/quote]
Hahahahahaha, u sound mad bro. :)

How you goonies doing anyway?

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[quote name='Ejayrazz' timestamp='1305641301' post='2713631']
Hahahahahaha, u sound mad bro. :)

How you goonies doing anyway?
[/quote]
I'm not mad, I'm just saying the rationale for the war was ridiculous.

We're fine, thanks for asking.

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[quote name='Ada069' timestamp='1305619425' post='2713551']
I think the main thing that we didn't act upon is that 1. We all left in different places. And we all went elsewhere. BobbyJ at VE, HellAngel at TOP and so on. The first major Grouping came in the form of The Ninjas. Which currently hold the base of the new Grämlin members. Which Ejay and Egwater designed to be a follow off the ninjas but with everything they felt was wrong with it.

The Ninjas charter became a sort of foundation for modification. Considering none of you know what the Ninjas where about apart from the random Goon declaring and getting spanked, you wouldn't realize that we were all equals down to the very last extent. Even having a 'conclave' sort of system never showed any rank. The only difference here to that is the Ninjas charter was designed for a small alliance. This alliance being bigger the conclave needs some extra strength, but NOT ENOUGH to really assert some controlling dominance over the AA. That was the plan. New members only have the disadvantage of knowing that there are Older members who influence better. but that is nothing you can really contain.

And yes Harmlin is dead, No CPR attempts will be given. But the bond still is there kind of and we appreciate MHA DoS and Concern and to answer the concern you gave. We don't know what will happen. It is quite possible we could implode upon each other and its quite possible we can restore the former glory of the Grämlins. But we are 100% committed to working to get the old ideals combined with a fresh new look at Grämlins.
[/quote]

Wasn't there another alliance created by Enderland first? I believe it was Kronos but could possibly be another alliance. not entirely certain bout the name.

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