This Week in the Network

[Style #386]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1304283538' post='2703351']
I don't understand how spying during war equals CB for later. Are you people seriously considering that?
[/quote]
Yep, you've got it Sherlock.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1304288941' post='2703419']
It worked for Athens. Obviously this is the new standard that C&G wants to impose.
[/quote]
The frightening part about it is that you appear to truly believe this.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1304285618' post='2703381']
2) You have not seen anyone making a particularly big deal of CoJ spying on us while we are at war. We have mostly shrugged our shoulders and moved on. However, what can be overlooked as an unconventional tactic during a time of war (though still a tactic of questionable morality in my book) is less likely to be overlooked once peace *is* signed if it continues.
4) Ohh. Also, while we are clearing up misconceptions and CoJ propaganda. There are a couple of misconceptions that seem to be widespread for some bizarre reason. First off, Schatt supposedly offering to 'surrender' to ODN multiple times before he launched into his recent questionable tactics. What he fails to mention, is that he was trying to *only* surrender to ODN not our allies. He was informed that unless he was willing to secure peace with our allies in MK we would not be leaving the field. When ODN entered this war, we decided we would not leave ANY of our fronts unless our enemies secured peace with our allies as well.[/quote]
When are you going to start taking responsibility for the situation that you have created? I think as a re-election congratulations I'm going to send you a "The buck stops here" desk ornament. CoJ approached Senator Joracy about peace 60 days ago, and heard nothing back. We approached him again on 3/16, and were passed along to you at which point you refused to even believe that we wanted to surrender after 30 minutes of conversation:
<OsRavan[ODN]> ill be honest and say I still am not sure if your goal here is to get COJ out of the *war* or if you are just trying to set things up so you can concetrait your fire power where you want.
<Schattenmann> Os, if someone tells me that the month-of-war is a go right now, then I would peace out tomorrow because the end of the war would be set
<Schattenmann> I can already concentrate my firepower anywhere I want. Right now I can choose between GOONS or ODN
Your refusal to entertain our overtures to peace meant we picked ODN.
We again discussed peace a month later, and created peace terms acceptable to both of us, which your membership changed with express purpose of adding things they thought would be unacceptable to CoJ.

You have refused peace for over 60 days, welcome to your present reality.

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1304285618' post='2703381']Schatt was very eager to get peace with ODN. He was much less eager to get peace with MK. ODN had no interest of accepting his limited surrender so he could turn his attentions on to our allies. If Schatt (or anyone else) doesn't like that? Well too bad.[/quote]
We made it very clear to you that GOONS's demands of $400,000,000 in reps and/or a 20-scene Shakespearian play were unacceptable, and that: "<Schattenmann> MK is not engaged with CoJ, CoJ has no plans to further engage MK, there's no reason then for ODN to take any more damage."
Unfortunately your retarded opinion (I couldn't find a nicer word, it is the opinion of a retard) that you are somehow defending MK from CoJ when MK attacked us first and we haven't had a war in over 2 months has made it you who refuses peace, not CoJ.

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1304285618' post='2703381']
3) I'm sure the OWF, being the intelligent and well reasoned folk they are, have already realized that Schatt is going through hundreds of posts[/quote]
You flatter me.

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1304285618' post='2703381']
And RV (or whoever), can you imagine the storm Schatt would have kicked up if anyone in DH had dared to act as he has done? Can you imagine if say, MK had mass messaged applicant AAs to get them to switch sides, infiltrated spies, threatened protectorates (yes he did do that), attempted to influence elections, pass themselves off as gov of another alliance? I honestly think we would have seen him rending his clothes and pulling clumps of his hair from scalp as he crawled across the OWF ranting about a New Hegemony.
[/quote]
You keep repeating this over and over. We addressed this face-to-face two weeks ago:
Session Start: Thu [b]Apr 14[/b] 20:12:45 2011
<OsRavan[ODN]> If someone on our side had behaved how you did Schatt, you would be screaming about a New Hegemony
<Schattenmann> I also need you to stop putting words in my mouth
<Schattenmann> I've been using these tactics for years, why would I call new-heg on spam?
<OsRavan[ODN]> Let me rephrase for you then. "If someone on our side had behaved like you did Schatt, I firmly feel that you would be screaming about a new hegemony"
<OsRavan[ODN]> there you go. My opinion now.
<Schattenmann> Do you think I'm a hypocrite? That I think I can tell an alliance that they shouldn't aid an AA at war but that no one else can?
<OsRavan[ODN]> I think that if someone on our side was threatening neutral protectorates and applicant AA's you would be screaming bloody murder yes.

You have insisted on putting words in my mouth since war's beginning and you have been consistently wrong. The day you stop trying to psycho-analyze me and listen to the words that are coming out of my mouth is the day things get a lot easier.

[Sephiroth]

In other ODN related news, the war between KN and ODN continues after being ongoing for more than 2 months now. Currently I have 6 wars going with them and doing quite well.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1304288548' post='2703409']
1) It is simply a matter of principle. Is CoJ a military threat? Not really. Does that mean we should make peace with and leave them to fight our allies?
[/quote]
Again, you continue to ignore what I have plainly told you a month ago:
Session Start: Wed Mar 16 17:48:40 2011
<Schattenmann> MK is not engaged with CoJ, CoJ has no plans to further engage MK, there's no reason then for ODN to take any more damage.

On 3/16 when we had that convo, it had already been weeks since CoJ retaliated against MK for MK's war on us.

[OsRavan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304289954' post='2703444']

You have refused peace for over 60 days, welcome to your present reality.


You have insisted on putting words in my mouth since war's beginning and you have been consistently wrong. The day you stop trying to psycho-analyze me and listen to the words that are coming out of my mouth is the day things get a lot easier.
[/quote]

1) I rather like our present reality. You are the one that seems to be pretty pissed at it. We are just doing our thing, you keep getting outraged and putting together giant threads and infiltrating spies.

2) Im not putting words into your mouth. Notice words such as "I think" "I bet" "I feel" those indicate that it is my opinion. And an opinion I continue to hold.



As to the rest, I dont see you actually refuting what I said. you couldnt get peace with MK. I informed you that peace with MK would be needed before we left the battlefield. Simple and straight forward. If MK would not leave till you got peace with GOONS... then you probably should have been negotiating more with them huh?

edit to add: And you werent actively fighting MK because you are all in PM ::eye roll::. By your logic, ODN wasnt in a state of war with legion a month or so ago when all of Legion was in PM.

Edited May 1, 2011 by OsRavan

[Alterego]

[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1304289659' post='2703439']
Yep, you've got it Sherlock.
[/quote]
Why dont you address it in this war instead of being underhanded and devious. Offering peace, a peace you intend to break yourself at the first opportunity shows the world ODNs word cant be trusted again. Same old ODN making agreements you have no intention of honouring. You have just replaced treaties with peace agreements.

[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1304289659' post='2703439']
The frightening part about it is that you appear to truly believe this.
[/quote]
The [u]appearance [/u](In your opinion) of a belief in a comment is terrifying alright.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1304289659' post='2703439']
Yep, you've got it Sherlock.
The frightening part about it is that you appear to truly believe this.
[/quote]
I like to go with a rule of three: once you get to three, it's a pretty solid bet. We've got Secretary JWZepf, Minister of Econ Lucius, Asst. Secretary General itseZe, and newly-elected Senator Vitsen all saying "let's attack CoJ again." So, yeah, when the only people talking about doing it are all government, I believe what I read.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Schattenmann

[itseZe]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1304288941' post='2703419']
Yeah, nobody believed that when TPF used it as a defense either.
[/quote]

TPF said "Hey, spy, wouldn't it be funny if we attacked you after the war"? I must have missed that.
Anybody who actually believes that and takes it serious deserves to be afraid of being attacked.
But then again neither you nor CoJ does.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1304288941' post='2703419']
However the democracy stuff is a bit more interesting, and I note that ODN posters have avoided discussing that.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what to respond to? We have elections every 2 months and the people with the most votes win. It's pretty simple really.

Edited May 1, 2011 by itseZe

[+Zeke+]

There is no such thing as spying once battle is joined. It's called gathering intelligence on one's war adversary. Had CoJ been found to spy before the war then you might make a case for demanding specific terms of them to let them out of war, this war that is. Right now all they are doing by gathering intelligence is....waging war on you.

Seriously, ODN, did you really think that Schattenmann was going to roll over and play weak defenseless micro-alliance when you declared on him? Did you really expect him to simply ignore his best skills and play by the rules you want him to? This is what Schattenmann does best and any alliance trying to roll him is going to get a full dose. That you seem outraged is either a bluff or an admission you didn't expect this.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1304286050' post='2703385']
This is boring, do this week in GOONS already.
[/quote]
I'll do it for you.

























































That is all.

[OsRavan]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1304291125' post='2703469']
There is no such thing as spying once battle is joined. It's called gathering intelligence on one's war adversary. Had CoJ been found to spy before the war then you might make a case for demanding specific terms of them to let them out of war, this war that is. Right now all they are doing by gathering intelligence is....waging war on you.

Seriously, ODN, did you really think that Schattenmann was going to roll over and play weak defenseless micro-alliance when you declared on him? Did you really expect him to simply ignore his best skills and play by the rules you want him to? This is what Schattenmann does best and any alliance trying to roll him is going to get a full dose. That you seem outraged is either a bluff or an admission you didn't expect this.
[/quote]

Schatt is free to wage war however he wants. However, once he chose to wage it in this manner he assured he would not be getting white peace. In other words, for every action there is a consequence. In the scheme of things, he is getting off pretty easy here... no reps or anything for example.

::shrugs:: he also seems to have miscalculated (as im sure he realizes by now) in assuming he could get ODN to give up the war if he caused some OWF teapot tempests.

[Style #386]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1304290675' post='2703458']
Why dont you address it in this war instead of being underhanded and devious. Offering peace, a peace you intend to break yourself at the first opportunity shows the world ODNs word cant be trusted again. Same old ODN making agreements you have no intention of honouring. You have just replaced treaties with peace agreements.
[/quote]
I would make a note of how it's difficult to discern context when Schattenmann has hand-picked the posts he wants to use, but I found it to be pretty obvious that these people were joking.

That you, and others, literally believe that we would declare peace and then redeclare does not reflect flatteringly on your intelligence.

[Alterego]

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1304291498' post='2703472']
::shrugs:: he also seems to have miscalculated (as im sure he realizes by now) in assuming he could get ODN to give up the war if he caused some OWF teapot tempests.
[/quote]
I see no ODN attempt at damage control in progress.

[OsRavan]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1304291828' post='2703477']
I see no ODN attempt at damage control in progress.
[/quote]

exactly my point. We dont care enough to 'damage control.'

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1304289954' post='2703444']
<OsRavan[ODN]> I think that if someone on our side was threatening neutral protectorates and applicant AA's you would be screaming bloody murder yes.
[/quote]
http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?searchstring=Declaring_Alliance%2CReceiving_Alliance&search=NPO%20Applicant&anyallexact=exact

FAN and GOONS both have active current wars on NPO Applicant. You have some serious catching up to do here, Schatt hasn't screamed bloody murder about it either.

[quote name='itseZe' timestamp='1304290909' post='2703464']
TPF said "Hey, spy, wouldn't it be funny if we attacked you after the war"? I must have missed that.
[/quote]
Learn to read.

TPF said "We just made that !@#$ up, we knew spies would see it." Nobody believed them.

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1304291498' post='2703472']
Schatt is free to wage war however he wants. However, once he chose to wage it in this manner he assured he would not be getting white peace. In other words, for every action there is a consequence. In the scheme of things, he is getting off pretty easy here... no reps or anything for example.
[/quote]
Would you like to explain, if this is true, why when Schatt waged war in precisely this way against ODN before, you didn't insist on any terms for Vox?

[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1304291526' post='2703473']
I would make a note of how it's difficult to discern context when Schattenmann has hand-picked the posts he wants to use, but I found it to be pretty obvious that these people were joking.
[/quote]
You're channelling your inner mhawk.

The similarity is ... eerie.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1304291828' post='2703477']
I see no ODN attempt at damage control in progress.
[/quote]

Tbqh TWiN isn't damaging ODN in any way, shape or form. If anything it's ingratiating ODN further with people like GOONS, who despise Schattenmann.

[Badpoet]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1304291125' post='2703469']
There is no such thing as spying once battle is joined. It's called gathering intelligence on one's war adversary. Had CoJ been found to spy before the war then you might make a case for demanding specific terms of them to let them out of war, this war that is. Right now all they are doing by gathering intelligence is....waging war on you.[/quote]
Debateable... One could argue that the "allowed spying" is limited to spy ops ingame - an act of war by itself, if you will.

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1304291125' post='2703469']
Seriously, ODN, did you really think that Schattenmann was going to roll over and play weak defenseless micro-alliance when you declared on him? Did you really expect him to simply ignore his best skills and play by the rules you want him to? This is what Schattenmann does best and any alliance trying to roll him is going to get a full dose. That you seem outraged is either a bluff or an admission you didn't expect this.
[/quote]
It's neither, to be honest. What we seem to be is just your own perception.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1304292078' post='2703483']
Would you like to explain, if this is true, why when Schatt waged war in precisely this way against ODN before, you didn't insist on any terms for Vox?
[/quote]

Because the only reason they attacked Vox in the first place was to get in with NPO and One Vision, and they realised how pathetic that was and that they had no reason to continue to fight them? I was there when Vox and ODN negotiated peace and there was a lot of goodwill on both sides. That is not the case now.

[Style #386]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1304292078' post='2703483']
You're channelling your inner mhawk.

The similarity is ... eerie.
[/quote]
I am so disappointed that you didn't make it to the WPE finals. I've done pretty much everything short of point blank stating that we won't redeclare on CoJ; I would do it, except that the teeth-gnashing from CoJ supporters amuses me greatly.

I'm not sure what this has to do with mhawk, though.

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Badpoet' timestamp='1304292201' post='2703487']Debateable... One could argue that the "allowed spying" is limited to spy ops ingame - an act of war by itself, if you will.[/quote]
One could argue it but based on what standing? That you wish to limit it to nation spy ops because they are acts of war then you have a complete non-starter, given that forum spying was an act of war that precipitated this entire global conflict. If anything you actually tied your hands further with that assertion.

Imo, if it is worthy of a CB then it is a legitimate tool during war.


[quote]It's neither, to be honest. What we seem to be is just your own perception.[/quote]
An easy denial that is also easy to disregard.



[edit]spelling

Edited May 1, 2011 by +Zeke+

[ForSparta]

Oh Schatt you so crazy.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1304292106' post='2703484']
Tbqh TWiN isn't damaging ODN in any way, shape or form. If anything it's ingratiating ODN further with people like GOONS, who despise Schattenmann.
[/quote]
ODN should be thanking CoJ if TWiN has been such a huge success for them. However, the vigorous and abusive defence from ODN leads me to believe it isnt the success for them you claim it is.

[Hyperion321]

So what if they hired bros? You are spies, and he is good at finding spies. I don't see the issue.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1304289659' post='2703439']
Yep, you've got it Sherlock.


The frightening part about it is that you appear to truly believe this.
[/quote]

Well excuse me for not be so credulous and understanding of you people. I mean it was only just a while ago when someone from your bloc that did exactly what you are joking around about right now. And the fact that you seem to have changed your attitude about giving white peace to CoJ only further makes it look like you're just backpedaling. Maybe if your government were a bit less two-faced about these negotiations, then people would have an easier time believing you. The way I see it is that you just want to make CoJ suffer because you simply don't like them. A week ago, you shrugging away this spying business and acting all big and tough about it. Now you say that you want CoJ to incur some consequences for the spying. Do you see what I mean? Do you understand why it's pretty damn difficult to believe you?

[itseZe]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1304292078' post='2703483']
[quote name='itseZe' timestamp='1304290909' post='2703464']
TPF said "Hey, spy, wouldn't it be funny if we attacked you after the war"? I must have missed that.
Anybody who actually believes that and takes it serious deserves to be afraid of being attacked.
But then again neither you nor CoJ does.
[/quote]

Learn to read.

TPF said "We just made that !@#$ up, we knew spies would see it." Nobody believed them.
[/quote]

So you admit that comparing these two instances is flat out wrong because they are not alike?
I literally adressed it at the spy, which is in contrast to what was done back then. (I also merely said it would be "funny" if it was done, and at no point advocated it, but you're ignoring that alltogether in typical Halfinger style)