A Frank Opinion of the DH/NPO War

[Haflinger]

[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1303839604' post='2699822']
NPO and allies don’t act like babies. Yes you feel wronged but so what. If peace without reps is offered take it.
[/quote]
lol, that would be accepted in about 30 seconds.

[ironchef]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1303865994' post='2700065']
Ahh the keen strategic mind of the GGA in action. You manage to get everything wrong all at once.

You see, VE attacked Polaris initially to try to pull Pacifica in. Which was very poor strategy, as it provoked sympathy for Polaris from those who ordinarily wouldn't be among their supporters, and since Pacifica was clearly quite content to watch Polaris burn indefinitely instead of moving. DH only attacked NPO after it became painfully clear that this was the only way to involve them.

Good strategy would have been skipping the whole embarrasingly stupid episode of Impero spying and Viridia attacking Polar and going straight to the main event without wasted effort and unecessary shenanigans.
[/quote]

Wow stuck in the past much? Let it go man let it go.

Unlike you my analysis of the situation is based on facts and common sense not assumptions and delusional thinking. Was NPO going to join the VE/NpO war if one of their allies joined? Hell if I know. Was it "painfully clear" they would not? No. Hence the pre-empt to make sure none of NPO/NpO mutual allies could join and bring them in. It’s called divide and concur. It’s a fairly easy concept to understand even for us old GGA dogs.

[Ardus]

[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1303923812' post='2700422']
Wow stuck in the past much? Let it go man let it go.

Unlike you my analysis of the situation is based on facts and common sense not assumptions and delusional thinking. Was NPO going to join the VE/NpO war if one of their allies joined? Hell if I know. Was it "painfully clear" they would not? No. Hence the pre-empt to make sure none of NPO/NpO mutual allies could join and bring them in. It’s called divide and concur. [b]It’s a fairly easy concept to understand even for us old GGA dogs.[/b]
[/quote]
This is the most Pyrrhic insult I've ever seen.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1303923812' post='2700422']
Wow stuck in the past much? Let it go man let it go. [/quote]

Remembering who one is speaking with is not the same thing as being stuck in the past.

Though, with your past, I can understand why you would want to blur the distinction.

[quote]It's called divide and concur. [/quote]

Actually you are attempting to reference divide and conquer. Divide and concur is something that happens at parliament.

[DogeWilliam]

Is this war still going on? It's like the iraq war, have it go on long enough and nobody cares.

[youwish959]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1303865994' post='2700065']
Ahh the keen strategic mind of the GGA in action. You manage to get everything wrong all at once.

You see, VE attacked Polaris initially to try to pull Pacifica in. Which was very poor strategy, as it provoked sympathy for Polaris from those who ordinarily wouldn't be among their supporters, and since Pacifica was clearly quite content to watch Polaris burn indefinitely instead of moving. DH only attacked NPO after it became painfully clear that this was the only way to involve them.

Good strategy would have been skipping the whole embarrasingly stupid episode of Impero spying and Viridia attacking Polar and going straight to the main event without wasted effort and unecessary shenanigans.
[/quote]
Ahh the keen strategic mind of the GPA.

[img]http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m325/SigrunO/sigbar.png[/img]

[Daimos]

My opinion, the pre-emptive strike against NPO was a poor strategic move for DH. The amount of political capital lost is not worth what little militarily a pre-emptive strike had achieved.

A counter attack on NPO entry to the VE-NpO war would had zero political risk and would have spared DH a lot of headache defending their actions.

If DH could do it over again, I am willing to bet they would have done it differently.

[Partisan]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1303947445' post='2700684']
Remembering who one is speaking with is not the same thing as being stuck in the past.

Though, with your past, I can understand why you would want to blur the distinction.



Actually you are attempting to reference divide and conquer. Divide and concur is something that happens at parliament.
[/quote]

At least Ironchef and GGA as a whole have actually had an impact on CN, for better or worse.

As for the 'lol all GGA members suck' argument; The GGA has brought forth alot of individuals that have been or still are prominent members in CN.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Partisan

[Ardus]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1305045812' post='2709641']
My opinion, the pre-emptive strike against NPO was a poor strategic move for DH. The amount of political capital lost is not worth what little militarily a pre-emptive strike had achieved.

A counter attack on NPO entry to the VE-NpO war would had zero political risk and would have spared DH a lot of headache defending their actions.

If DH could do it over again, I am willing to bet they would have done it differently.
[/quote]
Not really, no.

[D34th]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1305054097' post='2709692']
Not really, no.
[/quote]

I thought that you would agree with him, I'm shocked!

[Daimos]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1305054097' post='2709692']
Not really, no.
[/quote]

I would like to hear the worst case scenario for DH if NPO chose to enter the VE-NpO war.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1305055872' post='2709700']
I would like to hear the worst case scenario for DH if NPO chose to enter the VE-NpO war.[/quote]

It would depend entirely on timing and who hit who triggering defense treaties and preventing others from acting because of conflicting ones. Also any oA clauses and MADPs that got triggered.

But the worst case would have had DH entering into the fray and unable to target specific alliances in an effort to knock them out of the war early. The whole war bogs down quickly as the upper and middle tiers of many alliances get locked into nuke anarchy. From there a significant portion of the world's NS is locked into months of war and no side able to gain any sort of decisive victory and peace negotiations drag on. At some point the remaining major neutral alliances pile in on one side or the other and since this is the "worst case scenario" they pile in on DH and The Orders win a marginal victory with mostly white peace all around.

DH was never going to be decisively defeated. They could count on too much support from other alliances for that to happen.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1305045812' post='2709641']
My opinion, the pre-emptive strike against NPO was a poor strategic move for DH. The amount of political capital lost is not worth what little militarily a pre-emptive strike had achieved.

A counter attack on NPO entry to the VE-NpO war would had zero political risk and would have spared DH a lot of headache defending their actions.

If DH could do it over again, I am willing to bet they would have done it differently.[/quote]

If they did I would personally smack all of their leadership in the back of the head with my open hand...IRL.

No, the campaign was well executed by DH. The political capital that has been burned has been caused by the peace negotiation/terms for ending it, which at various points early on were laughably out of line with reality. As it stands now no one is probably going to remember that GOONS got money they didn't deserve, mostly because the amount wasn't particularly large by today's standards. What will get remembered is the "firing squad for NPO" or "war, part 2" that happened as a result of the "peace" treaty and that could be very problematic for DH in the future. We'll see.

[AntyCrist]

What I wounder is, what will be the effect of comments like, "every day NPO looks more and more like FAN."?
I head it from MHA, Fark, Duckrool, and more recently FAN.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1305063554' post='2709753']
As it stands now no one is probably going to remember that GOONS got money they didn't deserve, mostly because the amount wasn't particularly large by today's standards.
[/quote]
Oh ok, we'll be sure to ask for more next time so we're in line with expectations.

[Mansa Musa III]

All these treaties and treaty webs are both laughable and unfair. I think the best course of action would be an immediate revocation of all treaties by all alliances and the entry into a state of perpetual war. It's the best course of action, that the strongest may come out on top and not just those who hid under the wings of NPO (before 2009) and MHA (since 2009). Now I know this is radical but bear with me.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Mansa Musa III

[Dagrr]

Even in defeat, we ruin the world for everyone. Mission accomplished.

[Monster]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1305063554' post='2709753']
If they did I would personally smack all of their leadership in the back of the head with my open hand...IRL.

No, the campaign was well executed by DH. The political capital that has been burned has been caused by the peace negotiation/terms for ending it, which at various points early on were laughably out of line with reality. As it stands now no one is probably going to remember that GOONS got money they didn't deserve, mostly because the amount wasn't particularly large by today's standards. What will get remembered is the "firing squad for NPO" or "war, part 2" that happened as a result of the "peace" treaty and that could be very problematic for DH in the future. We'll see.
[/quote]


I don't necessarily agree with the last part, but you have it right the actual military action probably didn't do the most damage.

I think a lot of the bad feelings some had towards were it caused because general memberships riled up and posted without being cautious about it. A preemptive gag order or general guidelines might have prevented a lot of PR damage so to speak. I think someone said it in the ratings thread but the individual had more of an issue with the tone of "because we can" rather than the actual action.

[HHAYD]

Folks, if you want a "fun game", stop it with the reps. Many alliances are scared of losing wars as they might get harsh reps, which will cause things to stagnate.

DH's decision to push reps over flimsy CB(s) is certainly not going to keep the game interesting.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='HHAYD' timestamp='1305073325' post='2709846']
Folks, if you want a "fun game", stop it with the reps. Many alliances are scared of losing wars as they might get harsh reps, which will cause things to stagnate.

DH's decision to push reps over flimsy CB(s) is certainly not going to keep the game interesting.
[/quote]

I was ahead of one of the alliances on your side of the war and we were not scared at all of reparations. I am not exactly sure what you're talking about.

edited for clarity.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Lusitan

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1305069873' post='2709817']
Oh ok, we'll be sure to ask for more next time so we're in line with expectations.[/quote]

Too stupid to Polar I guess...just don't get your allies killed this time.

[youwish959]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1305069873' post='2709817']
Oh ok, we'll be sure to ask for more next time so we're in line with expectations.
[/quote]
You're better off saving that quote for next time ChairmanHal goes on and on about the terms.

[quote name='HHAYD' timestamp='1305073325' post='2709846']
Folks, if you want a "fun game", stop it with the reps. Many alliances are scared of losing wars as they might get harsh reps, which will cause things to stagnate.

DH's decision to push reps over flimsy CB(s) is certainly not going to keep the game interesting.
[/quote]
OOC: If you want a "fun game" quit playing CN.

Also high reps aren't killing CN; the inability to catch up to the upper tier is.

Edited May 11, 2011 by youwish959

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1305073931' post='2709850']
I was ahead of one of the alliances on your side of the war and we were not scared at all of reparations. I am not exactly sure what you're talking about.

edited for clarity.
[/quote]
[quote name='HHAYD' timestamp='1305073325' post='2709846']
Many alliances are scared of [b]losing wars[/b] as they might get harsh reps,
[/quote]

I wouldn't be surprised if a group of alliances weren't scared of curbstomping another side if they knew that they had the upper hand. However, would you still take on NPO if you knew that they had sufficient amount of firepower and allies' firepower to turn the war into a stalemate?

[Jaiar]

[quote name='AntyCrist' timestamp='1305068277' post='2709806']
What I wounder is, what will be the effect of comments like, "every day NPO looks more and more like FAN."?
I head it from MHA, Fark, Duckrool, and more recently FAN.
[/quote]
FAN was put to war for 2 years or so...It's been now 2 years plus since NPO has held any significant power politically. There are parallels in how both were/are shut off from being a significant part of the world. I wonder if NPO wasn't the largest and best of all the alliances that made up the former power structure if we would be so hated? The leaders of the NPO of years ago stuck to their principals good or bad is not really the point...the point is they didn't tuck tail and run away from allies when things began to get tougher unlike TOP and several other of the equally complicit alliances.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1305078668' post='2709899']
You're better off saving that quote for next time ChairmanHal goes on and on about the terms.[/quote]

ChairmanHal objects to reparations on principle. I do so because I came to the same conclusion that people who have studied Planet Bob from a distance did. In this case the reparations weren't all that severe and while they are objectionable on principle, they aren't in the realm that would cause resentment down the line--that was the basis of my comment.

[quote]OOC: If you want a "fun game" quit playing CN. [/quote]

[i]OOC: Using that logic, everyone should quit. You first. While this game doesn't take hours every week to play, it does take an exceeding long time to position yourself to win now and again. If this isn't a "fun game" or at least it doesn't have more fun moments than bad ones, there's no point to all the effort.[/i]

[quote]Also high reps aren't killing CN; the inability to catch up to the upper tier is.[/quote]

[i]OOC: Long ago Admin said otherwise. Catching up to the upper tier takes as long as it does because of the limitations placed on the purchase of wonders--one every 30 days, or 12 a year. Would speeding up the wonder clock help? Perhaps. But high reparations have always been more of a game killer and many people would rather delete than wait out paying off some #@*&%$ cash settlement and most never come back.[/i]