A Frank Opinion of the DH/NPO War

[Jrenster]

As much as I understand your sentiments, Jake, claiming that we're destroying CN is a bit much.

I would also like to point out that NPO has lost well over half of it's NS. Just like anybody else. We're not fighting, huh?

[Link Gaetz]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1303766732' post='2699414']
As much as I understand your sentiments, Jake, claiming that we're destroying CN is a bit much.

I would also like to point out that NPO has lost well over half of it's NS. Just like anybody else. We're not fighting, huh?
[/quote]
I don't think he's paid real close attention to what's happened in this war.

[Lord Velox]

[quote name='Link Gaetz' timestamp='1303779354' post='2699504']
I don't think he's paid real close attention to what's happened in this war.
[/quote]
NPO nations older than 1000 delete en masse.
I have no idea if that happened before,i know it's happening right now.

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Link Gaetz' timestamp='1303779354' post='2699504']
I don't think he's paid real close attention to what's happened in this war.
[/quote]

I care not for intricacies, although you can see that I do follow them and even commented on them in my active posts. That's cool, though, you can make those assumptions. I'm just more of a big picture kinda guy.

Also, Jrenster, I know, but Legion sure as hell can't say the same.

[Yggdrazil]

[quote name='Lord Velox' timestamp='1303748199' post='2699251']
GOONS were attacked by more than 6 alliances and we held them back pretty nice without mass usage of PM.
I don't see how calling you cowards will help though,I'll just keep on pounding your nations into Pixeldust.
[/quote]
GOONS let' s be serious,the only way your still in the fight is outside resources. While those you fight rely mostly on internnal resources.It is comparing apples and oranges. Expecting an enemy to take on your strenght is absurd and reeks of undeserved hubris.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1303780065' post='2699508']
I care not for intricacies, although you can see that I do follow them and even commented on them in my active posts. That's cool, though, you can make those assumptions. I'm just more of a big picture kinda guy.

Also, Jrenster, I know, but Legion sure as hell can't say the same.
[/quote]

So what you're saying is that you made this thread to bash Legion? I don't see why that's necessary because it's blatantly obvious that the Sith don't think too highly of Legion.

[Lord Velox]

[quote name='Yggdrazil' timestamp='1303781561' post='2699523']
GOONS let' s be serious,the only way your still in the fight is outside resources. While those you fight rely mostly on internnal resources.It is comparing apples and oranges. Expecting an enemy to take on your strenght is absurd and reeks of undeserved hubris.
[/quote]
They have an advantage with numbers,Us with funding and skilled nation rulers.
You can argue as much as you'd like but the fact stands that we're winning.Don't dogpile and we won't even need Outside resources and i can give myself as an example - most of my funds came from NPO nations that were 1000+ days and didn't fight back,and i made two nuclear nations delete with my pathetic excuse of a nation.

You can spin it how you like but it will always prove The Hopeless coalition's ineptitude and us being [u][b]BETTER[/b][/u] than them.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Lord Velox

[Feuersturm]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1303616156' post='2698189']
The sum total demands of the entire Hopeless Coalition pale in comparison to the final terms for either NPO or TOP of the previous two global conflicts, though I'm sure you'll all complain about the agreement with NPO anyway.
[/quote]

I highly doubt anything will ever come close to hitting the KARMA reparation mark again. You guys set a really high bar that time.

[SADeki]

[quote name='Yggdrazil' timestamp='1303781561' post='2699523']
GOONS let' s be serious,the only way your still in the fight is outside resources. While those you fight rely mostly on internnal resources.It is comparing apples and oranges. Expecting an enemy to take on your strenght is absurd and reeks of undeserved hubris.
[/quote]

I guess that's just one of the benefits of having allies that don't sit in peace mode.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Lord Velox' timestamp='1303748199' post='2699251']
GOONS were attacked by more than 6 alliances and we held them back pretty nice without mass usage of PM.
[/quote]
Oh dear god. You absorbed literally billions of aid and have lost millions of NS. This is not a good counterargument.

[Link Gaetz]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1303780065' post='2699508']
I care not for intricacies, although you can see that I do follow them and even commented on them in my active posts. That's cool, though, you can make those assumptions. I'm just more of a big picture kinda guy.

Also, Jrenster, I know, but Legion sure as hell can't say the same.
[/quote]
Naw, I'd say your commentary was really pretty narrowly focused. But, everyone wants to think they're a big picture kinda guy. I understand.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1303681345' post='2698706']
Precisely. This Planet would be a lot more interesting if people stopped just siding with their friends and actually wanted to balance things out for a challenge, but they won't, and instead they'll even go as far to complain that the [i]other side[/i] isn't doing enough to make things fun. It needs to stop. You are not [OOC] saving the game. [/OOC]
[/quote]

Well said

[Yggdrazil]

Trying to post and in wrong place. Do not know how this happen.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Yggdrazil

[Baldr]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1303616156' post='2698189']
The sum total demands of the entire Hopeless Coalition pale in comparison to the final terms for either NPO or TOP of the previous two global conflicts, though I'm sure you'll all complain about the agreement with NPO anyway.
[/quote]

That's only true when you count direct reps. When you count a month of "You must leave peace mode and allow us to nuke the snot out of you", then the damage adds up. And that's part of the demands.

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Feuersturm' timestamp='1303784688' post='2699559']
I highly doubt anything will ever come close to hitting the KARMA reparation mark again. You guys set a really high bar that time.
[/quote]
'Karma' isn't an acronym, it's just a name. Also, the demands to TOP and IRON were in the same ballpark.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1303791809' post='2699612']
That's only true when you count direct reps. When you count a month of "You must leave peace mode and allow us to nuke the snot out of you", then the damage adds up. And that's part of the demands.
[/quote]
You say that as though NPO doesn't have the strength of spirit to make the most of it by blitzing the Kingdom and doing the same. A well organized force that is outnumbered can output more damage than they suffer, as MK so famously proved way back when.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1303833580' post='2699791']
You say that as though NPO doesn't have the strength of spirit to make the most of it by blitzing the Kingdom and doing the same. A well organized force that is outnumbered can output more damage than they suffer, as MK so famously proved way back when.
[/quote]
MK also had a tech advantage, generally speaking, in that war. Here ... well, MK has a pretty large tech advantage, and that's not factoring in Umbrella.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1303569679' post='2697727']
Quick disclaimer: this is just the rants from a former NSO leader, and it's not meant to be reflective upon NSO in any way, shape, or form. This is also not some planned-out post, so if the syntax seems a bit bizarre, apologies.

So, we all know about the war. We all have heard the arguments. NPO was randomly attacked by DH. DH pre-empted them in order to prevent an entry into the VE/Polar war. It is what it is. War is healthy for the community to some extent. It shakes things up, and makes things fun and interesting for a little bit. The problem with war is that if it goes on for too long, it falls into the same bad spot that prolonged peace has, and eventually kills Bob's population - monotony.

Let's be honest, whatever the reason is that DH attacked NPO, it really did make things interesting in the world again. And this is coming from someone who focused on Finance. Normally, we're the guys trying to yell at people to prevent this sort of thing from happening, and anyone who has held a spot as MoF or anything similar to that, or originally came from that spot and went higher, would know. Again, is what it is.

That said, NPO and Legion effectively killed off any sort of fun that could be had. People take Bob far too seriously. You've literally lost a big chance for fun in [OOC]a dying game[/OOC] in favor of politics. While this isn't meant to reflect upon NSO, I can easily say that at least we had fun, made our mark, and doggone it, weren't cowards. Yeah, yeah, it's strategy. We've all heard that, too. But, again, you've effectively killed off one of the last chances of fun here, and you've taken that and run with it. Hell, you're proud of that. Of course, you're not as bad as Legion, but regardless.

There are some people I hold respect for over on NPO's side. Frankly, I respect DH more for having the balls to shake things up, and having fun doing it. It also sucks that you would use lower alliances as deterrents, essentially, to protect your own hide, and take some heat off of your own targets. Again, fine to an extent, but Legion and a lot of NPO has been in PM for a good part of 2 months, now. When will the line be drawn?[/quote]

You're missing something.

I have repeatedly argued that NPO and its allies could have done better in terms of strategy for this war. In retrospect I'm pretty sure that they would do at least some things differently.

Whether or not NPO and its allies did a good job fighting it however is a separate issue from how the war is being brought to an end. So far all I hear coming out of the peace talks are humiliating terms, unnecessary reparations, and worse. Suffice to say that the lie of "but it's just [s]30 days[/s] 3 weeks of combat" has long since been exposed.

If NPO and its allies screwed up the "fun" of the war (much as it could be argued that Legion did in 2007, or FAN did that same year by "turtling" during the first FAN War and not fighting back in a conventional fashion), DH is doing nothing but ensuring that the peace is equally screwed up, resulting in bitterness all around and tarnishing what was in the end a victory.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[ironchef]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1303837450' post='2699809']
You're missing something.

I have repeatedly argued that NPO and its allies could have done better in terms of strategy for this war. In retrospect I'm pretty sure that they would do at least some things differently.

Whether or not NPO and its allies did a good job fighting it however is a separate issue from how the war is being brought to an end. So far all I hear coming out of the peace talks are humiliating terms, unnecessary reparations, and worse. Suffice to say that the lie of "but it's just [s]30 days[/s] 3 weeks of combat" has long since been exposed.

If NPO and its allies screwed up the "fun" of the war (much as it could be argued that Legion did in 2007, or FAN did that same year by "turtling" during the first FAN War and not fighting back in a conventional fashion), DH is doing nothing but ensuring that the peace is equally screwed up, resulting in bitterness all around and tarnishing what was in the end a victory.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
[/quote]


I would have to agree with Hal on this one.

DH attacked NPO to keep them from joining the VE/NpO war. Good strategy if you ask me and it worked. The Pre-empt on NPO kept NPO and its allies out of the war. That war is over. This war has served its purpose so why is it still going on?

DH&co should be free to go and make more trouble, and NPO and its allies should be let go to do whatever it is they do for fun.

Anything this war has cost DH is there loss. They started it and knew there would be a cost for this action. Suck it up and move on. NPO did nothing wrong, their allies did nothing wrong by honoring their obligations so there is no reason I can think of to justify reps of any sort.

NPO and allies don’t act like babies. Yes you feel wronged but so what. If peace without reps is offered take it.

I think white peace all around would be the best idea. It would make the next war come that much sooner with more fun for all of us to be had. Let’s call it a day boys.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='ironchef' timestamp='1303839604' post='2699822']
DH attacked NPO to keep them from joining the VE/NpO war. Good strategy if you ask me and it worked. The Pre-empt on NPO kept NPO and its allies out of the war. That war is over. This war has served its purpose so why is it still going on? [/quote]

Ahh the keen strategic mind of the GGA in action. You manage to get everything wrong all at once.

You see, VE attacked Polaris initially to try to pull Pacifica in. Which was very poor strategy, as it provoked sympathy for Polaris from those who ordinarily wouldn't be among their supporters, and since Pacifica was clearly quite content to watch Polaris burn indefinitely instead of moving. DH only attacked NPO after it became painfully clear that this was the only way to involve them.

Good strategy would have been skipping the whole embarrasingly stupid episode of Impero spying and Viridia attacking Polar and going straight to the main event without wasted effort and unecessary shenanigans.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1303865994' post='2700065']
Ahh the keen strategic mind of the GGA in action. You manage to get everything wrong all at once.

You see, VE attacked Polaris initially to try to pull Pacifica in. Which was very poor strategy, as it provoked sympathy for Polaris from those who ordinarily wouldn't be among their supporters, and since Pacifica was clearly quite content to watch Polaris burn indefinitely instead of moving. DH only attacked NPO after it became painfully clear that this was the only way to involve them. [/quote]

Which is logical, but not what was stated early on as the reason why Pacifica was attacked. The stated reason was preemption, unless of course the individual who planned it was lying, in which case well...it makes it hard to do a proper analysis now doesn't?

[quote]Good strategy would have been skipping the whole embarrasingly stupid episode of Impero spying and Viridia attacking Polar and going straight to the main event without wasted effort and unecessary shenanigans.[/quote]

They had the explosives, but no detonator. Sometimes you improvise.

[Monster]

I'm not sure where Sigrun's analysis came from to be honest. If anything, she has it wrong on all counts rather than Ironchef. I'll just say this: if it was "painfully clear" to anyone on our side NPO would not get involved, it would have made zero strategic sense to attack them rather than just clean up the entire Polar theater, which without the NPO and allies involvement would have been easy to do.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1303868415' post='2700095']
Which is logical, but not what was stated early on as the reason why Pacifica was attacked. The stated reason was preemption, unless of course the individual who planned it was lying, in which case well...it makes it hard to do a proper analysis now doesn't? [/quote]

Not at all. Any proper political analysis starts with the assumption all official statements and rationales are cover-stories. Occasonially that turns out not to be correct, and has to be adjusted, but it's more often true than not.

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1303868652' post='2700096']
I'm not sure where Sigrun's analysis came from to be honest. If anything, she has it wrong on all counts rather than Ironchef. I'll just say this: if it was "painfully clear" to anyone on our side NPO would not get involved, it would have made zero strategic sense to attack them rather than just clean up the entire Polar theater, which without the NPO and allies involvement would have been easy to do.
[/quote]

Oh come now, the long series of taunt threads from DH during the period of time when Polar was engaged but Pacifica was not gave that away long ago. .

It's rather odd to deny it now. I mean, it's the one *good* thing about the whole war really, no matter how badly executed it was, the target being so obviously Pacifica earns you a ton of slack.

[Monster]

I'm not sure what it gave away other than the fact that people don't like NPO and wanted them involved because of it, but it doesn't really make the Polar an entirely peripheral issue as people didn't like Polar before the war as well. People wanted and expected NPO to get involved because of the treaty links and people did want to fight them, not really hard to find people who want to see NPO burn. You can dislike more than one alliance at once. NPO "letting Polar burn" as you describe was never a given, especially when it was always known it was Polar not calling Legion in immediately rather than NPO telling them to not honor the treaty. The fact that it wouldn't have made sense for NPO to go in early on was another reason it was never a given. Given who the author of this thread is and what was attributed to him, I think it's funny it came up again.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Raider]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1303785861' post='2699571']
Oh dear god. You absorbed literally billions of aid and have lost millions of NS. This is not a good counterargument.
[/quote]
That's because we're not blowing it on infra. We're using it to fund our wars.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Raider