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Schattenmann
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Who's the bigger bully?  

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[b]The case for CoJ:[/b]
In February, MK organized attacks on CoJ (and other alliances) without posting a DoW because they "didn't want to clutter up the forum." Several days later, CoJ, TPF, 64Digits, and others released a recognition of hositilities, with CoJ attacking two MK nations. Shortly thereafter, the ODN declared war on CoJ "in defense" of MK. At the time, ODN boasted over 340 nations, ~10,000,000 NS, and had not been engaged by their other target, Legion, whereas CoJ had 30-40 nations, and had already been at war with GOONS for a month.
CoJ proceeded to spam ODN Applicant the following message:
[quote] wish to inform you that the ODN is currently involved in an unjust war of aggression against my alliance Cult of Justitia.

I feel it only fair to you to notify you of this point because I imagine that when ODN's recruiters sent you promises of prosperity, growth and aid, they probably did not tell you about the war, and as an ODN applicant, you are subject to attack by CoJ; target lists have been made.
CoJ nations are small because of the long war, yours are small because they are new--ODN's large nations won't be able to counter-declare on us, we are out of their range; they cannot help you.
We don't want to attack nations that have been tricked into joining ODN without knowledge of the war. Attacks will not commence for 4 days, anyone that has removed "ODN Applicant" as their alliance affiliation by then will not be attacked.
You can find many honest alliances to join here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showforum=24

Any alliance can teach you, only ODN promises war.[/quote]

Later that same week, CoJ and 64Digits noticed that ODN's protectorate, The Flood Empire, was mass tech-dealing with ODN, an act of war, in breach of all historical precedence. CoJ had the following conversation with TFE:
Session Start: Sun Mar 06 13:33:51 2011
Session Ident: Paulus_magintie
<Yawoo> Afternoon, you're from TFE, correct?
<Paulus_magintie> yea
<Yawoo> I believe an associate of mine, HeroofTime spoke with you earlier?
<Paulus_magintie> yes
<Yawoo> I'm just here to confirm that TFE is going to continue to arm ODN with technology during war, is that correct?
<Paulus_magintie> yes
<Yawoo> Okay, and I see you're protected by ODN, but I find no official treaty on the OWF nor on ODN's forums. Can you link me to a copy of it, please?
<Paulus_magintie> Its not been posted yet
<Paulus_magintie> i have a copy but its only between the 2 alliances for now
<Yawoo> I see, and what's the ETA on that post?
[13:38] <Paulus_magintie> ETA?
<Yawoo> estimated time of arrival
<Paulus_magintie> erm well to be fair we got everybody to sign it except 1 person so should be today or early tomorrow
<Yawoo> Alright, and just to reiterate what I believe my associate has already gone over with you
<Yawoo> Arming an alliance which is at war with technology is considered a further act of war with the participants, are you aware of this?
<Paulus_magintie> Yes i got this
<Paulus_magintie> can i ask
<Paulus_magintie> which alliance are you from
<Yawoo> Cult of Justitia
<Yawoo> And knowing this, you will continue to arm the Orange Defense Network with technology?
<Paulus_magintie> never heard of you
<Paulus_magintie> yes
<Yawoo> We are a quiet alliance
<Yawoo> Alright, that's all I needed, thank you for your assistance. Have a pleasant afternoon

ODN now claims that both instances were unwarranted bullying of new/ignorant rulers which should be apologized for as a condition for peace.
[quote name='Finnish Commie' timestamp='1303477489' post='2696483']
CoJ have been acting like a bunch of thugs trying to bully our new-to planet Bob protectorate. Although all in all, CoJ is very good at talking the talk but they have no means of walking the walk.
[/quote]


[b]The Case for Kerberos Nexus:[/b]
At the same time it declared war on CoJ, ODN declared war on Kerberos Nexus, a 2-man micro-AA comprised of Methrage and some other guy. Similarly to CoJ, KN had been at war for a month by the time ODN decided it needed to help its allies deal with the threat posed by all[i] both [/i]KN nations.
A former Top 20 nation, Methrage quickly reached the bottom tier, infrastructure shattered, but wonders, nukes, and experience intact. Forced into battle with ODN by their declaration upon him, Methrage went about the business of war, defending himself with gusto, causing the release of "[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=99809"]Really, Methrage?"[/url] a whiny essay about Methrage's nuking small nations that is sure to become a cult classic. The author's bragging about causing the deletion of 3 nations aside, ODN harped on Methrage's actions:
[quote name='NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM' timestamp='1300000444' post='2662629']
He's received 19.5 million in aid from alliances outside his own (which I believe he and his [color="#FF0000"]ModEdit[/color] is not treatied to). So what's the point of breaking this code of honor?

As a note here, I've taken [s]6[/s]7 of his nukes.
[/quote]
[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1300592932' post='2670769']
Take a look at your wonder count, then a look at the wonder count of the ODN nations you're fighting (because your nation has been reduced to rubble and doesn't can't compete with nations of equivalent age), and then try to justify the silly attempts at gloating in your post. I don't see a whole lot to gloat about, personally.
[/quote]
[quote name='NOMNOMNOMNOMNOM' timestamp='1300001336' post='2662651']
Mmhm. But really, what's the point of playing if I'm just getting nuked into oblivion? Isn't it supposed to be fun?
[/quote]
[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1301137640' post='2677054']
I am really getting upset with you and if I have too, I will get rid of my technology and my infra and kick the hell out of you, your nothing more then a has been nation sitting in the low levels talking crap as you beat on smaller and much younger nations.
[/quote]
[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1300646719' post='2671212']
Methrage: going on your nation age (1,291 days old), and the age of the nations you are fighting (85 to 352 days old) you are nothing more then a bully, you have lots of wonders and good for you but you are using them to pick on smaller nations that do not have a chance to beat you.
[/quote]
[quote name='itseZe' timestamp='1302272387' post='2686782']
Now compare our smallest nuclear nation to methrage. He has 7 times the NS and they are 6000 ranks apart.
[/quote]
[quote name='itseZe' timestamp='1302392428' post='2687617']
Making fun of the military abilities of a nation that's a fraction of your age and has 6 times as many casualties.
Well, do whatever makes you feel :smug: about yourself...
[/quote]
[quote name='Yates' timestamp='1303319116' post='2694703']
[i]Clearly[/i] illustrated in the screen caps above are the three nations [b]you declared on[/b] - inclusive of the 19 day old nation.

Since 2/20 you have declared 13 times on 0 nuclear capable nations and 0 nations with > NS.
Since 2/20 you have been declared on 13 times by [b]1[/b] nuclear capable nation and [b]1[/b] nation with > NS - that nation being Vitsen's on 4/18.

To me this illustrates a few points:
1. You avoid anything that might closely resemble a fair fight. This is understandable but flies in the face of your spurious attempt at bravado.
2. Our smaller nations are doing a commendable job of keeping your slots filled and your nation out of Peace Mode while still causing damage.
3. You have to give these smaller nations a lot of credit; they are willing to take on a nuclear capable nation with all those wonders and shrug off their disadvantage in service to our Network.
[/quote]

[center][img]http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/TWiN/TWiNhost01.png[/img][/center]
So, faithful viewers, TWiN wants to hear from you! Who's the bigger bully? The spam-sending CoJ scourge, or the ZIed nuker Methrage? Results not scientific.

Edited by Schattenmann
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Voted "ODN are the biggest bullies".

I don't think either are bullies. In the case of CoJ, I think that if one resorts to unconventional tactics, that one can expect an unconventional responses (an apology! Crikey, ODN are the bullies here!), and in the case of Methrage, he's spent a ridiculous amount of time gloating about beating up on smaller nations as if he's some sort of superior tactician, and [i]not[/i] a formerly large nation knocked down into the lower ranks, where his wonders and improvements come into play.

Most of us don't have a problem with the fact that Methrage is fighting less-prepared nations than his own: it is a war; it's his incessant gloating that grates on the nerves. Most of us don't take it too personally that Schattenmann is reduced to annoying PMs and spying to achieve his aims: it's a war; it's his incessant complaining about very light terms (especially in light of the spying) that we take issue with.

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[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1303510111' post='2697049']
Voted "ODN are the biggest bullies".

I don't think either are bullies. In the case of CoJ, I think that if one resorts to unconventional tactics, that one can expect an unconventional responses (an apology! Crikey, ODN are the bullies here!), and in the case of Methrage, he's spent a ridiculous amount of time gloating about beating up on smaller nations as if he's some sort of superior tactician, and [i]not[/i] a formerly large nation knocked down into the lower ranks, where his wonders and improvements come into play.

Most of us don't have a problem with the fact that Methrage is fighting less-prepared nations than his own: it is a war; it's his incessant gloating that grates on the nerves. Most of us don't take it too personally that Schattenmann is reduced to annoying PMs and spying to achieve his aims: it's a war; it's his incessant complaining about very light terms (especially in light of the spying) that we take issue with.
[/quote]
Sounds like ODN needs to close their eyes.

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[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1303525394' post='2697322']
To be honest I don't think CoJ deserves any reps after this war. The fact that you've had to coordinate with HoT seems to be worse than any material punishment your opponents could ever force upon you.
[/quote]
This joke got old the last fifty times it was used. Get new material.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1303504080' post='2696953']
The Flood Empire, was mass tech-dealing with ODN, an act of war, in breach of all historical precedence. [/quote]
This isn't really true. Alliances clearly on the winning side have often freely engaged in trade with other alliances while the war still went on. There's nothing wrong with it if TFE has no particular interest in pursuing relations with your alliance in the future. Sure, it would be a widely-accepted CB if you were to declare on them for it, but if they have no real interest in the war and their safety is secure there's no reason that they shouldn't do business.

It's not hypocrisy either, although I've seen it called such; both sides are welcome to declare on the other side's tech dealers for aiding the enemy. The fact that only one side is materially able to back their convictions doesn't mean it's hypocritical.

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[quote name='bzelger' timestamp='1303526552' post='2697332']
This isn't really true. Alliances clearly on the winning side have often freely engaged in trade with other alliances while the war still went on. There's nothing wrong with it if TFE has no particular interest in pursuing relations with your alliance in the future. Sure, it would be a widely-accepted CB if you were to declare on them for it, but if they have no real interest in the war and their safety is secure there's no reason that they shouldn't do business.

It's not hypocrisy either, although I've seen it called such; both sides are welcome to declare on the other side's tech dealers for aiding the enemy. The fact that only one side is materially able to back their convictions doesn't mean it's hypocritical.
[/quote]
Inability to respond to an Act of War does not mean the Act just goes away on it's own. It's still an Act of War.

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[quote name='bzelger' timestamp='1303527023' post='2697338']
Yes. Like I said, it would be a widely-accepted CB. That doesn't create a contradiction.
[/quote]
However, it does make forcing us to apologize for bringing it up absolutely ridiculous.

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[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1303510111' post='2697049']
In the case of CoJ, I think that if one resorts to unconventional tactics, that one can expect an unconventional responses (an apology! Crikey, ODN are the bullies here!)
[/quote]
Err, telling people that aiding nations at war is a CB is now "unconventional tactics"?

Paging Hoo. :awesome:

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[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1303568875' post='2697721']
Err, telling people that aiding nations at war is a CB is now "unconventional tactics"?

Paging Hoo. :awesome:
[/quote]
Spying? And if anybody thinks that Schattenmann and HoT dropped in on TFE for purely educational purposes, then I think they're a few cards short of a deck.

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