Quick Europa Announcement

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1303668803' post='2698585']
I knew that anything I posted would be criticized and accepted that fact, which is why I haven't complained about it. I could be offering 3 million/150 tech to every nation on Planet Bob and somebody somewhere would !@#$%* about it. I know this, I understand this, and I accept this. We aren't on a high horse, we're just protecting somebody whom I saw as being treated unfairly by a bunch of children.
[/quote]

But what about the next guy? Will Europa be jumping in to rescue the next guy who gets raided and runs to the OWF?

I'm not defending Gotham, they handled this pretty poorly. I don't believe the original intent was to extort membership, but instead of clearing it up, they just made it worse. That said, Tyler knows how this works. He's more than capable of getting his nation on an AA properly if he didn't want to be raided/attacked.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1303669796' post='2698592']
But what about the next guy? Will Europa be jumping in to rescue the next guy who gets raided and runs to the OWF?

[/quote]



Most likely not. As I've stated several times now, this was a special circumstance and we felt it best to protect the individual. I am not disputing your right to argue to the contrary, and I in fact encourage it. That's what makes this planet great: Somebody always disagrees with something somehow.

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1303629018' post='2698331']
Things move fast, I had to move faster.
[/quote]

That being the case, now that you've had days and days to get a hold of him, do you intend to have him fly your AA for protection? You reasoning makes sense, but only as a stop-gap, not a long-term thing.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]
[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1303696626' post='2698900'][/size][/font]That being the case, now that you've had days and days to get a hold of him, do you intend to have him fly your AA for protection? You reasoning makes sense, but only as a stop-gap, not a long-term thing.
[/quote]



He says he's going to delete. It wouldn't make sense to have him join the AA only to delete, and as much as I know it won't make sense to protect him if he's deleting, I'd like to let him go in peace.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[size="2"]Double post. Please delete. [/size]

Edited April 25, 2011 by Ernesto Che Guevara

[Helena Cain]

As the Mayor or otherwise Head of State of Gotham, there are a few events that certainly need to be made clear. Numerous parties have fabricated their own twisted spin on this situation at hand. I think it is rather absurd that accusations can be made about Gotham, and everyone can ignorantly and foolishly believe it without actually communicating to the other party on the situation, I think this is a failure at leadership for those who have done just that. How ridiculous and pathetic are we when we do not have the strength or perhaps courage would be a better work to double check on a very simplistic state of affairs.

In case you want to pick up the little red phone #CIC is where I can be found if anyone legitimately desires to know the TRUTH on this matter. Opposed to believing the fairy tale that some would have you believe.

Secondly I will make it clear again and reiterate that I have no desire to destroy anyone on such frivolousness. As I said before, a Gotham nation declared war and I might add they were rather new. New nations tend to make mistakes like that... nobody can say they have not had this happen before, anyone can go to Europa's war page and view that they had a nation declare on Metamorphosis for the purpose of "Nation Government" so let us humble ourselves for a moment and not be hypocrites.

To say that myself or my alliance had some sort of vendetta after this nation is absurd, and I would like to implore you all to do a little thinking and your homework before you believe such nonsense. Let us be abstract and get both sides of this situation. I don't ask that you believe me, I ask that you do your homework and educate yourself.

This very same nation that everyone has been willing to jump to the defense of vowed to destroy Gotham in the presents of CSN leadership... and might we explore as to why this nation is no longer under CSN Protection and has been jumping around rather spasmodically? Over the past week many of you have paid attention to this topic and another and rewarded a nation who looks for nothing more but pity and attention very needlessly.

Have we really lost our bearings, excuse me while I compose myself after reading such fallacies. I know we have more commonsense than this.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Helena Cain' timestamp='1303786532' post='2699575']
Secondly I will make it clear again and reiterate that I have no desire to destroy anyone on such frivolousness. As I said before, a Gotham nation declared war and I might add they were rather new. New nations tend to make mistakes like that... nobody can say they have not had this happen before, anyone can go to Europa's war page and view that they had a nation declare on Metamorphosis for the purpose of "Nation Government" so let us humble ourselves for a moment and not be hypocrites.
[/quote]

There is a clear, distinct difference between a tech raid and forced recruitment. Anybody that goes around insulting the legitimacy of another alliance's government should know this full-well.

[quote name='Helena Cain' timestamp='1303786532' post='2699575']
Over the past week many of you have paid attention to this topic and another and rewarded a nation who looks for nothing more but pity and attention very needlessly.
[/quote]

On the contrary, the nation in question initially declined our offer of protection for fear of causing an international uproar and threat to Europa.

[quote name='Helena Cain' timestamp='1303786532' post='2699575']
Have we really lost our bearings, excuse me while I compose myself after reading such fallacies. I know we have more commonsense than this.
[/quote]

While you're composing yourself, try composing a post that isn't strictly nonsensical hypocrisy iced with a delicious layer of ad hominem.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Ernesto Che Guevara

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Helena Cain' timestamp='1303786532' post='2699575']
As I said before, a Gotham nation declared war and I might add they were rather new. New nations tend to make mistakes like that...
[/quote]

So you then tried to recruit the nation on the receiving end and another one of your nations just happened to have made an identical mistake against an identical target?

Further, if Gotham had done proper background checks on their membership first, you would have already known that bbrocheleau had previously been at the brink of being thrown out of a prior alliance for repeatedly making those "mistakes" when he decided to conveniently leave it.

In any event, it seems as though at worst Gotham is guilty as has been charged, or at best is woefully negligent when it comes to attempting to be aware of past issues and working to mitigate future issues. Neither one, particularly given how Gotham has handled the situation since it started, looks good for you.

Just my own $0.02, anyways.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Lord Boris

[Helena Cain]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1303789146' post='2699592']
There is a clear, distinct difference between a tech raid and forced recruitment. Anybody that goes around insulting the legitimacy of another alliance's government should know this full-well.



On the contrary, the nation in question initially declined our offer of protection for fear of causing an international uproar and threat to Europa.



While you're composing yourself, try composing a post that isn't strictly nonsensical hypocrisy iced with a delicious layer of ad hominem.
[/quote]

First:There was no forced recruitment. I offered a favor which I certainly did not have to, to end this nations wars. It is certainly not my problem they were on none and had no protection. Not to mention I did not force anyone to do anything, so perhaps you are still a little confused. Please scroll up and reread my post.

Second: Thats nice to know.

Third: Again do your homework.

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Helena Cain' timestamp='1303789795' post='2699598']
First:There was no forced recruitment. I offered a favor which I certainly did not have to, to end this nations wars.
[/quote]

"Join us and I call off my hounds" now counts as a favor?

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Helena Cain' timestamp='1303789795' post='2699598']
First:There was no forced recruitment. I offered a favor which I certainly did not have to, to end this nations wars. It is certainly not my problem they were on none and had no protection. Not to mention I did not force anyone to do anything, so perhaps you are still a little confused. Please scroll up and reread my post.

Second: Thats nice to know.

Third: Again do your homework.
[/quote]


I find it extremely difficult to read anything you type with any air of legitimacy based on your conduct not only in this thread, but in the other thread regarding the initial raid. Your condescending attitude towards all aspects of international relations is disgusting and apalling. There were far better ways to handle Tyler's query regarding the raids, but you chose the path not traveled and acted the same way you're acting now.

[Helena Cain]

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1303789223' post='2699595']
So you then tried to recruit the nation on the receiving end and another one of your nations just happened to have made an identical mistake against an identical target?

Further, if Gotham had done proper background checks on their membership first, you would have already known that bbrocheleau had previously been at the brink of being thrown out of a prior alliance for repeatedly making those "mistakes" when he decided to conveniently leave it.

In any event, it seems as though at worst Gotham is guilty as has been charged, or at best is woefully negligent when it comes to attempting to be aware of past issues and working to mitigate future issues. Neither one, particularly given how Gotham has handled the situation since it started, looks good for you.

Just my own $0.02, anyways.
[/quote]

I don't deny any of that at all, actually I think I am rather open about making those kinds of mistakes and errors. =/ I don't pretend to be perfect or anywhere near it.

[Helena Cain]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1303789959' post='2699600']
I find it extremely difficult to read anything you type with any air of legitimacy based on your conduct not only in this thread, but in the other thread regarding the initial raid. Your condescending attitude towards all aspects of international relations is disgusting and apalling. There were far better ways to handle Tyler's query regarding the raids, but you chose the path not traveled and acted the same way you're acting now.
[/quote]


You have that right. Of course I am going to react like this when you are concerned about something so laughable. If I could go back in time I would give your buddy Tyler a cookie, however its really none of your concern, and Gotham could care less right now. If Europa needed some attention then I think you cold have acted a little more mature and came up with a better method to get it.

Excuse my manners but I consider it rude not to laugh at jokes.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Helena Cain' timestamp='1303790333' post='2699602']
You have that right. Of course I am going to react like this when you are concerned about something so laughable. If I could go back in time I would give your buddy Tyler a cookie, however its really none of your concern, and Gotham could care less right now. If Europa needed some attention then I think you cold have acted a little more mature and came up with a better method to get it.

Excuse my manners but I consider it rude not to laugh at jokes.
[/quote]


That explains your obvious lack of competency. You're always so busy laughing at your conduct and your role as a government official, so the lack of air flow to the brain is understandable.

If Gotham could care less, tell me, why are you so upset about this notice of protection? And why the extreme levels of butthurt in the initial thread?

[youwish959]

I find all this complaining by people (EgoFreaky/Xiphosis) about this not being adequate protection to be laughable at best. If you look through history there are numerous examples of a bio being considered adequate protection and even more so an alliance announcement accompanied with a protection message in a bio. Probably one of the most notable examples of this would have been Pacifica's protection of Warriorconcept following the Unjust War.

[Eumirbago]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1303629018' post='2698331']
Basically, he'd been raided by a member of Gotham and when he approached Gotham about the raid, he was told to join or have the raids continue. When he said he wasn't interested in joining, their leader (in a rather childish manner) informed him that the attacks would not be stopped, at which point another Gotham nation joined the raid.
[/quote]

tyler wasn't being forced to join Gotham. Helena asked him to either join an alliance or join Gotham in order to stop the attacks. The person that attacked tyler was a newer nation and just wanted to attack some random nation and chose tyler. The second nation that attacked tyler attacked because he felt like doing so, not because he was ordered to.

[Helena Cain]

And even if I did order the second nation to attack him then so what? If you want to call me a warmonger then go right ahead, everyone will find the solution they are content with anyways. I will move on from this topic, Europa or whoever else is welcome to talk about it until the cows come home. The few intelligent will hopefully be able to put together the actual facts and understand that if you are in NONE if you have no PROTECTION then you are an open target, this policy wont change. Call it a tech raid, target practice, forced recruitment, or war.

[Kongo Jack IV]

[quote name='Helena Cain' timestamp='1303792046' post='2699615']
And even if I did order the second nation to attack him then so what? If you want to call me a warmonger then go right ahead, everyone will find the solution they are content with anyways. I will move on from this topic, Europa or whoever else is welcome to talk about it until the cows come home. The few intelligent will hopefully be able to put together the actual facts and understand that if you are in NONE if you have no PROTECTION then you are an open target, this policy wont change. Call it a tech raid, target practice, forced recruitment, or war.
[/quote]

Thanks for the input. Your comments will be taken into consideration.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Eumirbago' timestamp='1303791727' post='2699611']
tyler wasn't being forced to join Gotham. Helena asked him to either join an alliance or join Gotham in order to stop the attacks. The person that attacked tyler was a newer nation and just wanted to attack some random nation and chose tyler. The second nation that attacked tyler attacked because he felt like doing so, not because he was ordered to.
[/quote]

The fact of the matter is, Europa would likely have not done a thing to help Tyler had it not been for the conduct between him and Helena. The same type of conversation continued over into the world's view, conversation that was unbecoming of an alliance leader.

[Eumirbago]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1303796519' post='2699645']
The fact of the matter is, Europa would likely have not done a thing to help Tyler had it not been for the conduct between him and Helena. The same type of conversation continued over into the world's view, conversation that was unbecoming of an alliance leader.
[/quote]
Ahhh alright.

[Wu Tang Clan]

o/ Europa.

My love for you grows stronger everyday.

10/10, would read again.

[Judge X]

Stand Up *Stuff* Europa. May the Dark Knight learn the error of their ways. GOONS techniques are truly terrible.

o/ Europa

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Judge X' timestamp='1303801225' post='2699683']
Stand Up *Stuff* Europa. May the Dark Knight learn the error of their ways. [i]GOONS techniques are truly terrible.
[/i]
o/ Europa

[/quote]

Someone once told me you were second in command of something. I refused to believe them, due to the fact that you come off like a person who ate paint chips as a child when saying things like the above.


Also, I don't know why there is debate about adequacy of protection procedures. We've protected individuals many times, and only rarely have we made announcements about it. This is more than enough to suffice.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1303669578' post='2698590']
Haf, considering your Alliance is nothing more than an NPO Satellite Alliance, who are you to speak of sovereignty?
[/quote]
Answer, of course: We're not. We have a non-chaining MDOAP with NPO, as we agree with some of their goals and think that Planet Bob is better off with them than without them.

We don't run our decisions past them. You should be aware of our independent streak, as you guys used to complain about us making decisions without "consulting" (well, really, "obeying" would be a better word) you when we were allied.

We do the same thing with NPO. The difference is that they know who they're dealing with and they trust us; at least they trust us to honour our treaties anyway, as we've always done in the past.

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1303669578' post='2698590']
They're free to do whatever they want to do, who am I to stop them?
[/quote]
Yeah well let's just say that your post reeked of the old Valhalla "Do what I say or you're going to get rolled" approach that worked [i]so[/i] well at keeping us in line.

Lots of alliances have announced one-man protectorates, and competent raiders read bios. You're just making the old Valhalla argument that tech raiding should be completely unlimited against unaligned nations, which glosses over the fact that several alliances do in fact protect unaligned nations.

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1303789223' post='2699595']
In any event, it seems as though at worst Gotham is guilty as has been charged, or at best is woefully negligent when it comes to attempting to be aware of past issues and working to mitigate future issues.
[/quote]
Personally I'm inclined to believe the latter; Helena does not strike me as competent enough to realize that posting a 0-soldier nation as a prime target for raiding immediately after said nation declined a recruitment offer is effectively forced recruitment.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1303803165' post='2699688']
Also, I don't know why there is debate about adequacy of protection procedures. We've protected individuals many times, and only rarely have we made announcements about it. This is more than enough to suffice.
[/quote]
Hey, maybe tyler is the new shaneprice.

[Lord Windmark]

Hmmm very interesting.