This Week in the Network

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Finnish Commie' timestamp='1303477489' post='2696483']
CoJ have been acting like a bunch of thugs trying to bully our new-to planet Bob protectorate. Although all in all, CoJ is very good at talking the talk but they have no means of walking the walk.
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but you guys have to stop making me spray my drinks from my nose. It burns.

I don't know if it was the idea of CoJ being "thugs" or the fact that you think it's totally cool to lie to and trick a brand new (and therefore, necessarily, clueless) alliance into aiding you while at war.

[King Charge]

I love the list of foreign aid deals going on with CoJ.

Crymson from TOP
Comrade Craig from The International
An Umbrella Applicant EDIT: Ruggsy
Someone from IAA

I suspect ODN will deal with them.

Edited April 22, 2011 by King Charge

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303501148' post='2696893']
They bullied the newbish nations, not ODN, but noone really missed that. As with the messages, yeah funny, funny as in they had no real meaning because they couldn't be backed up, so really pointless. I am laughing at the fight to back that up as meaningful. Hey, carry on whining about how awful the terms are because we don't see it that way. Fill up pages and pages about it have fun. In the end...light terms is light terms no matter how you try and misrepresent...well just about anything that is ever said.
Ha! Light terms is terrible.
[/quote]
Actually, we attempted to get "newbish" nations out of harm's way, while ODN was content to use them as meat shields and tech farms for their own purposes.

ODN didn't warn their applicants that joining would enter them in a war that they might not like.

ODN didn't tell TFE that they were participating in the war by sending aid, and attempted to convince them otherwise.

It's [i]our[/i] fault, though, for being the ones to step up and be honest with these new guys.

[AirMe]

[quote name='King Charge' timestamp='1303502351' post='2696917']
I love the list of foreign aid deals going on with CoJ.

Crymson from TOP
Comrade Craig from The International
An Umbrella Applicant EDIT: Ruggsy
Someone from IAA

I suspect ODN will deal with them.
[/quote]

And it is well within their right to do so. But clearly they missed that page of CN 101.

[Ubermeir]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1303502415' post='2696918']
Actually, we attempted to get "newbish" nations out of harm's way, while ODN was content to use them as meat shields and tech farms for their own purposes.

ODN didn't warn their applicants that joining would enter them in a war that they might not like.

ODN didn't tell TFE that they were participating in the war by sending aid, and attempted to convince them otherwise.

It's [i]our[/i] fault, though, for being the ones to step up and be honest with these new guys.
[/quote]
They weren't in harms way. Ha! Anyway. Never going to change your mind. Just having a good time at your expense. Light terms is terrible.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303501148' post='2696893']
They bullied the newbish nations, not ODN, but noone really missed that. As with the messages, yeah funny, funny as in they had no real meaning because they couldn't be backed up, so really pointless. I am laughing at the fight to back that up as meaningful. Hey, carry on whining about how awful the terms are because we don't see it that way. Fill up pages and pages about it have fun. In the end...light terms is light terms no matter how you try and misrepresent...well just about anything that is ever said.
Ha! Light terms is terrible.
[/quote]
ODN are really the ones who hurt the new nations. You neglected to tell them there was a war. CoJ has every right to inform them. They also don't need to apologize to TFE considering aiding an enemy is an act of war. Simple stuff really.

Edit: The terms aren't bad and are nowhere near what GOONS apparently offered to CoJ, but that doesn't make ODN right on how it handled it's negotiations with CoJ

Edited April 22, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303503508' post='2696939']
They weren't in harms way. Ha! Anyway. Never going to change your mind. Just having a good time at your expense. Light terms is terrible.
[/quote]
I would be interested to hear you logic that being at war does not count as "in harms way"

While ODN might be doing well overall as a result of picking on relatively microscopic targets (how courageous of you), those small and new targets would have been wrecked by us older guys who are loaded with wonders and improvements.

[Ubermeir]

It is in the peace terms so it bears some consideration ay the least. Your opinions of these actions withstanding, I don't see it that way. It is my opinion that sending propaganda that had no chance of ever being backed up, to newbs, is poor form and an attempt at making one more relevant than they are. An apology is a small token to pay for a perceived slight. Take it easy.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Ubermeir

[Style #386]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1303503845' post='2696947']
While ODN might be doing well overall as a result of picking on relatively microscopic targets (how courageous of you), those small and new targets would have been wrecked by us older guys who are loaded with wonders and improvements.
[/quote]
Out of curiosity, who would you have us war? We're not in the centre of this conflict, so your "lol bold ODN is so bold lol" line only works if we're actually trying to play up our adversaries or involvement. We're not. Try again.

[Mirreille]

[quote name='Finnish Commie' timestamp='1303477489' post='2696483']
CoJ have been acting like a bunch of thugs trying to bully our new-to planet Bob protectorate. Although all in all, CoJ is very good at talking the talk but they have no means of walking the walk.
[/quote]

That protectorate has 4 times as many nations, and all they have to do is pick up the phone to ODN if they feel threatened and ODN is quite capable of dealing with this. The only people saying CoJ is bullying them are ODN members.

[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303501148' post='2696893']
They bullied the newbish nations, not ODN, but noone really missed that. As with the messages, yeah funny, funny as in they had no real meaning because they couldn't be backed up, so really pointless. I am laughing at the fight to back that up as meaningful. Hey, carry on whining about how awful the terms are because we don't see it that way. Fill up pages and pages about it have fun. In the end...light terms is light terms no matter how you try and misrepresent...well just about anything that is ever said.
Ha! Light terms is terrible.
[/quote]

No one has said the terms are awful. It's ODN trying to rewrite the diplomatic playbook to suit them that is the issue. Wasn't NSO attacked over a measly pair of aid packets? There have been many cases where diplomatic pressure was applied or nations even attacked just trying to complete tech deals with a nation whose alliance found itself at war. If ODN chooses not to do so that's great, but not everyone follows that path.

[Pingu]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1303493362' post='2696749']
If you don't want people messaging your nations, maybe you shouldn't attack their alliance? CoJ is many times smaller than you and needs to use "outside the box" tactics to be effective.

If you can't do the time, don't pay the crime. It isn't CoJ's fault that you guys can't handle a few propaganda messages sent your way. Pull your panties up and act like a big boy.
[/quote]

Our 'outside the box' response to their 'outside the box' tactics is to get them to pull up their panties, act like a big boy, and offer a polite apology. That's the time for this crime. Whether the peanut gallery deems the crime significant or the time appropriate is entirely irrelevant.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1303507422' post='2697000']
Our 'outside the box' response to their 'outside the box' tactics is to get them to pull up their panties, act like a big boy, and offer a polite apology. That's the time for this crime. Whether the peanut gallery deems the crime significant or the time appropriate is entirely irrelevant.
[/quote]

There is no crime. ODN failed to inform their new recruits there was a war. ODN decided to break traditional Bob War time etiquette and advised their protectorate to do tech deals with them knowing full well that their adversaries would probably take exception to the fact. All CoJ did was warn the protectorate that aiding during wartime if they are uninvolved is an offense punishable by some kind of reparations or attack. The only thing CoJ did to the ODN academy was send them propaganda messages letting them know there was a war going on. Again, it's not CoJ's fault that you don't properly inform or train your recruits and yet you insist on punishing them for your incompetence.

You guys are the ONLY ones here who seem to think you are owed an apology. The only thing that is outside of the box on the apology demand is ODN's intelligence. And in that case it isn't just outside of the box, it was dumped in the toilet and then flushed down into the sewer.

I can't believe you guys seem to see a 19 man micro alliance as a threat to your sovereignty.

EDIT: When it comes down to it, you guys are just whining about propaganda.

Edited April 22, 2011 by AirMe

[ForSparta]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1303502415' post='2696918']
while ODN was content to use them as meat shields[/quote]

You say that as if we *need* meatshields.

[Pingu]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1303507705' post='2697006']
<snip> irrelevant stuff </snip>

EDIT: When it comes down to it, you guys are just whining about propaganda.
[/quote]

As I said, the peanut gallery's input is irrelevant. The only whining here is coming from Schatt (this whole thread, for instance) and his enablers. CoJ asked for peace. They were told what they had to do. They don't want to, but prefer to whine about how it's all so terribly unfair that they be asked to apologize for the offence they have caused. Whether their acts offended anyone but us does not matter one iota. If they don't want to accept our utterly reasonable conditions for peace, I'm sure we will be happy to offer them the logical alternative for as long as they wish.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1303509779' post='2697037']
As I said, the peanut gallery's input is irrelevant. The only whining here is coming from Schatt (this whole thread, for instance) and his enablers. CoJ asked for peace. They were told what they had to do. They don't want to, but prefer to whine about how it's all so terribly unfair that they be asked to apologize for the offence they have caused. Whether their acts offended anyone but us does not matter one iota. If they don't want to accept our utterly reasonable conditions for peace, I'm sure we will be happy to offer them the logical alternative for as long as they wish.
[/quote]

And yet here you are trying to convince me of your view point.

Haven't whined about anything really...I have made a logical argument since joining this discussion and no one has really given me one back. And I am not really sure if I said anything about unfair, but I do believe I used the word idiotic because they did nothing to warrant an apology. There was no offense.

[Ubermeir]

Failed to inform them that some meaningless micro might threaten them? Didn't even cross our minds i would bet. Ha!
I would doubt any of them fought in one war, or if they did that act would have resulted in a paltry amount of aid to a protectorate. The fact that anyone else or noone else feels that an apology is neccesary is irrelevant, it is part of some light terms.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Ubermeir

[AirMe]

[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303511135' post='2697083']
Failed to inform them that some meaningless micro might threaten them? Didn't even cross our minds i would bet. Ha!
I would doubt any of them fought in one war, or if they did that act would have resulted in a paltry amount of aid to a protectorate. The fact that anyone else or noone else feels that an apology is neccesary is irrelevant, it is part of some light terms.
[/quote]

Clearly the alliance is meaningful if you feel the need to make them apologize for it. If they were meaningless you would let them off with no terms.

Edited April 22, 2011 by AirMe

[Pingu]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1303511000' post='2697079']
And yet here you are trying to convince me of your view point.

Haven't whined about anything really...I have made a logical argument since joining this discussion and no one has really given me one back. And I am not really sure if I said anything about unfair, but I do believe I used the word idiotic because they did nothing to warrant an apology. There was no offense.
[/quote]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Your repeated postings don't make your opinion relevant. This includes your opinion of whether or not there was an offence. This is neither a court of law nor the court of public opinion. CoJ's terms of surrender will be determined through diplomatic processes, as is conventional, not by opinion poll.

The purpose this discussion [thread] serves is to 1) stroke Schatt's ego and 2) provide ample evidence of CoJ's espionage against the Network. I'm sure Schatt appreciates your assistance with point 1.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1303511764' post='2697098']
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Your repeated postings don't make your opinion relevant. This includes your opinion of whether or not there was an offence. This is neither a court of law nor the court of public opinion. CoJ's terms of surrender will be determined through diplomatic processes, as is conventional, not by opinion poll.

The purpose this discussion [thread] serves is to 1) stroke Schatt's ego and 2) provide ample evidence of CoJ's espionage against the Network. I'm sure Schatt appreciates your assistance with point 1.
[/quote]

My opinion isn't relevant. It's as irrelevant as the next guys. But as I stated before, you are still here talking to me for some reason even though I don't matter at all.

Conventional as in might makes right? Even though CoJ did the conventional thing and warned TFE about sending aid to parties at war and also did the conventional thing by warning ODN applicants that the alliance they were joining was involved in a war, albeit in a skewed way, both of which are not crimes within themselves.

In my irrelevant opinion the best way to prevent further TWiN's is to just get the peace. Otherwise I am sure the leak will continue and we will see more of these. And we all know how well TWiP worked out for Pacifica. It is one of the major reasons you are able to continue to exact revenge on them right now.

[Letum]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1303511764' post='2697098']
2) provide ample evidence of CoJ's espionage against the Network.
[/quote]

ODN be better off focusing on this rather than the grave offense of asking people not to send foreign aid to your enemy.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Finnish Commie' timestamp='1303477489' post='2696483']
CoJ have been acting like a bunch of thugs trying to bully our new-to planet Bob protectorate. Although all in all, CoJ is very good at talking the talk but they have no means of walking the walk.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Do you fellows have a different definition of the word "bullying" than say.....normal people? I mean, you're allied to an alliance that has asked for some of most excessive reparations in the history of the world, and sometimes for trivial reasons (canceled trade, etc.). Yet I've never heard a peep out of ODN, unless it was to praise MK for its benevolence. But now CoJ just tells some new rulers about a simple fact on Bob (that aiding people at war can be considered an act of war), and ODN cries bloody murder.

This is absurd really. I read the logs. CoJ did tell TFE that, yes, but they never threatened to attack TFE nations if the tech deals continued (quite frankly they have higher priority targets). And CoJ told your applicants that they were joining an alliance currently at war. That's something fairly helpful, actually, and something new rulers should have a right to know. I'm honestly surprised that you aren't telling them yourself.

But, bah, what I fail to see is how any of this is "bullying." To try to even label any of these benign activities as such as is laughable.[/color]

[Lord Velox]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1303503596' post='2696942']


Edit: The terms aren't bad and are nowhere near what GOONS apparently offered to CoJ, but that doesn't make ODN right on how it handled it's negotiations with CoJ
[/quote]
Disband?

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303504015' post='2696950']
and an attempt at making one more relevant than they are.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Wait, what? First, who are you to decide who is relevant? Just because you dislike Schatt does not make him irrelevant. CoJ may be small, but they have the ears of quite a few people, and it is still a lot more than what most people lead. But, that aside, what are you trying to punish him for? Being an irrelevant person stating his opinion? If so, I'm stepping up as another big-mouthed irrelevant person for your list.[/color]

[Pingu]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1303512204' post='2697104']
My opinion isn't relevant. It's as irrelevant as the next guys. But as I stated before, you are still here talking to me for some reason even though I don't matter at all.

Conventional as in might makes right? Even though CoJ did the conventional thing and warned TFE about sending aid to parties at war and also did the conventional thing by warning ODN applicants that the alliance they were joining was involved in a war, albeit in a skewed way, both of which are not crimes within themselves.

In my irrelevant opinion the best way to prevent further TWiN's is to just get the peace. Otherwise I am sure the leak will continue and we will see more of these. And we all know how well TWiP worked out for Pacifica. It is one of the major reasons you are able to continue to exact revenge on them right now.
[/quote]

I'm talking to you out of nostalgia, mainly - a certain amount of respect for when you used to matter.

If this edition of TWiN is indicative of what we can expect from any future spies CoJ decides to send, I don't think we have too much to worry about. A disadvantage of our internal transparency and democracy is that we're a relatively easy alliance against which to conduct espionage. An advantage is that when it (inevitably) occurs, it really doesn't matter too much.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1303512497' post='2697113']
ODN be better off focusing on this rather than the grave offense of asking people not to send foreign aid to your enemy.
[/quote]

I'm confident our collective attention span can handle both matters.

[ty345]

Pingu, you are aware the Schatt keeps the best information to himself, right?