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[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1303402540' post='2695586']
While I do love me some GOONS, I respectfully disagree with their assessment that Schattenman is evil and that the Cult is out to destroy them.
[/quote]

I'm not going to claim he's evil, but Schattenman [i]was [/i]caught trying to manufacture a CB so he and everyone else with a grievance against us could attack us. If that's not trying to destroy us, I don't know what is.

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[quote name='SADeki' timestamp='1303438097' post='2696130']
I'm not going to claim he's evil, but Schattenman [i]was [/i]caught trying to manufacture a CB so he and everyone else with a grievance against us could attack us. If that's not trying to destroy us, I don't know what is.
[/quote]

Which incident are you referring to? Wasn't the WCE idea formulated by someone else? (I assume that is what you are referring to)

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[quote name='SADeki' timestamp='1303438097' post='2696130']
I'm not going to claim he's evil, but Schattenman [i]was [/i]caught trying to manufacture a CB so he and everyone else with a grievance against us could attack us. If that's not trying to destroy us, I don't know what is.
[/quote][quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1303438891' post='2696143']
Which incident are you referring to? Wasn't the WCE idea formulated by someone else? (I assume that is what you are referring to)
[/quote]
The #strageos channel was opened to explore aiding Ninjas/FnKa, then when we got wind that UPN was thinking about attacking over a bad raid, we discussed helping UPN. He's referring to HeroofTime's line in the #strategos logs after it looked like UPN would not go to war saying that we should make a fake AA for GOONS to raid then defend it, an idea that was flatly refused by everyone present but which GOONS continues to focus on as the main point of the meeting. Idiots with no critical analysis skills lap it up despite the meeting's abrupt end once it became clear that UPN was no longer going to fight.

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What did or didn't happen to MK or any other alliance in days past is immaterial. Our GA decided that mass-messaging our Applicant AA is apology-worthy, and that posturing toward our protectorate is apology-worthy. Maybe we just like apologies.

As mentioned, we don't hassle tech sellers or war with Applicant AAs. That's our way of doing things. Deal with it.

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Oh hey, look what I have here!

[quote][23:48:15] <HeroofTime55> But would you allow that massive aid operation to take place
[23:48:54] <Joraway> We've had situations like this in the past
[23:48:55] <HeroofTime55> Like say, Duckroll members are encouraging their little guys to do those deals with us
[23:49:04] <Joraway> We generally don't do much but make some noise
[23:49:11] <Joraway> Especially not in the current situation you're in
[23:49:25] <Joraway> It's all situational of course
[23:49:42] <Joraway> and I'm not really one who cna make this decision
[23:49:53] <HeroofTime55> So you'd just rattle your sabre a bit? What happens when that doesn't work and the deals continue?
[23:50:02] <HeroofTime55> Well work with me here
[23:50:18] <HeroofTime55> We're speaking in hypotherticals so assume you are the guy who makes the call
[23:50:23] <Joraway> Fine
[23:50:29] <Joraway> There are some benefits of winning the war
[23:50:31] <Joraway> Thats one of them
[23:50:53] <HeroofTime55> Now doesn't it feel better to get that off your chest?
[b][23:51:14] <Joraway> Thats not our policy however
[23:51:17] <Joraway> I couldn't comment on it[/b][/quote]

Those lines probably weren't important anyways. Or many of the other things I said. You spent a very long time attempting to get me to say those lines, and I repeated said my opinion wasn't important, nor was it policy, and that out policy is what I said. We decided we were going to tech deal with our protectorate, as this war was quite frankly, minor, and we weren't going to stop techdealing because of a 20 man alliance we were at war with. If 64digits had a protectorate, and wished to tech deal with them, then they can go right ahead. Really. If we go through hours of back and forth with us "warning" your protectorate, and repeatedly claiming we will attack them over multiple thread and queries, I'll apologize my self.

I don't expect we'll mass message your applicants with horrible propaganda and lies, nor spy on you though.

Edited by joracy
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[quote name='joracy' timestamp='1303451803' post='2696337'] If 64digits had a protectorate, and wished to tech deal with them, then they can go right ahead. Really.
[/quote]
Okay, now I know you're out of it. That is a load of bull. That would mean I could tech deal with an upper tier nation and he could aid me 3 million, and hell, if he's nice he might even let me pay it back later. ODN, (or really any competent alliance) in that situation would not allow that to occur. That nation would have pressure put on it to be kicked and attacked, or the alliance as a whole would be threatened.

Besides, if tech deals are supposed to lead to a positive for both nations/alliances, what in the world would the difference be between it and outright aid? I ask of course because I was in fact aided by an uninvolved third party and that nation was attacked specifically by ODN.

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[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1303418137' post='2695803']
Not so sure if might makes right applies, since while aiding people in a conflict is a cause of action, its not exactly a horrific and abhorrent offense that leaves hordes of crying women and children in its wake. The phrase is usually reserved for when someone does something wrong in the ethical sense, not the mechanical.
[/quote]
Nobody's complaining about ODN tech dealing with their protectorate while at war. Yes, it's a CB on the protectorate, for everyone at war with ODN. It's ODN who's complaining about their protectorate being told basic facts about CN.

[quote name='SADeki' timestamp='1303438097' post='2696130']
I'm not going to claim he's evil, but Schattenman [i]was [/i]caught trying to manufacture a CB so he and everyone else with a grievance against us could attack us. If that's not trying to destroy us, I don't know what is.
[/quote]
Sigh. No he wasn't.

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[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1303433954' post='2696042']
The only relevance that you would have in this situation is you, in theory, could influence the way your allies think. Allies are more inclined to accept some views as their own or in sympathy/empathy then non-allies are.
[/quote]
ODN are not our allies.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1303349835' post='2695083']
Apologize for telling a new alliance that aiding another alliance at war is an act of war? Why should I? Admit that it was inappropriate to approach a sovereign alliance about their aid to another alliance at war? It wasn't. Admit it was inappropriate to spam ODN Applicant with a message that said we consider them part of ODN and liable to attack? Why? None of those actions is inappropriate or some brand new thing [b]I[/b] made up; they're are statements of fact, and I cannot apologize for fact or make fact inappropriate by stating it.
[/quote]

That message to the ODN applicant was a threat. "Get off the AA or else". Shoot why not just attack the applicant and call it a day. It's not that uncommon to see and it might not have even come up in conversation. Maybe I just see things in a different light because of bias, but this really seems like one of the worst things you could do in response to such a peace offer.


Apologies Hyperbad, I was taking things to an extreme.

Cool story Earogema. (Did I top myself again or second worst defenses?)


Just be prepared for me to tell you "I told you so" if the terms get worse.

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[quote name='darkfox' timestamp='1303476807' post='2696472']
Just be prepared for me to tell you "I told you so" if the terms get worse.
[/quote]
Insofar as I am aware, we have no desire to increase the severity of the terms.

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[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1303444627' post='2696230']
As mentioned, we don't hassle tech sellers or war with Applicant AAs. That's our way of doing things. Deal with it.
[/quote]
Show me a war.

The ODN declared aggressive war on CoJ at the behest of MK in nothing more than a farcical parade--which is the sum of every military "action" ODN has ever taken--against an alliance they knew could not do anything about it (which is precisely why you picked us). Now even as OsRavan patronizes his elders with history lessons, you have re-learned what you forgot post-Vox: that there is more than one way to peel an orange.
CoJ virtually ignored ODN for over a month hoping that a minimal engagement would pay off when things came near the end, but ODN has shown me my mistake with its ludicrous and self-righteous demands. Now OOCII is full swing, and only some respect and common sense can bring it to a close, just like OOCI (imagine that).

[quote name='darkfox' timestamp='1303476807' post='2696472']
That message to the ODN applicant was a threat. "Get off the AA or else". Shoot why not just attack the applicant and call it a day.
[/quote]
Because I am a gentleman, and because ODN has been duping applicants by neglecting to mention they're joining an alliance at war. In my conversations with ODN Applicants, I continually run up against poor souls like this fellow:
[quote]To: Schattenmann From: --wouldn't you like to know-- Date: State Secret
Subject: RE: Impending attack
Message: I thank you for the warning. I dld not know of any war, I am not interested in war. Again, thanks for the tip. [/quote]
If I were to attack these people without sending them a warning, it would not be fair to them, nor would it do honor to Justitia's cause. The messages sent to ODN Applicant are not a threat, they are an infomercial that allows these nations to make the best decisions regarding their nations' futures.

Edited by Schattenmann
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Honorable to threaten newbs with something you could not fulfill. Honorable to not "fully attack" an alliance you never had a chance of beating? Ha! An odd use of the word. But then the troll squad never is interested in truth or real honor, which would have been fully engaging in support of allies and leaving know little newbbs alone. But the troll squad is clearly less interested in actual honor and more interested in feeding the word to their newbs and creating pages of irrelevence.
Light terms, the horror.

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[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1303444627' post='2696230']
What did or didn't happen to MK or any other alliance in days past is immaterial. Our GA decided that mass-messaging our Applicant AA is apology-worthy, and that posturing toward our protectorate is apology-worthy. Maybe we just like apologies.

As mentioned, we don't hassle tech sellers or war with Applicant AAs. That's our way of doing things. Deal with it.
[/quote]

If you don't want people messaging your nations, maybe you shouldn't attack their alliance? CoJ is many times smaller than you and needs to use "outside the box" tactics to be effective.

If you can't do the time, don't pay the crime. It isn't CoJ's fault that you guys can't handle a few propaganda messages sent your way. Pull your panties up and act like a big boy.

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[code]
Alliance Name Total Nations Strength Avg. Strength
ODN 339 9,988,233 29,464
Mushroom Kingdom 165 5,884,116 35,661
The Flood Empire 78 166,339 2,133
ODN Applicant 46 253,703 5,515
Cult Of Justitia 18 606,560 33,698
[/code]
My name is Schattenmann, and I am a bully.

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303498249' post='2696827']
Yes, a tiny alliance bullying some newbish nations, real honorable, not thinking outside the box, pretending to be more relevant than they are is all. Light terms is sill light terms.
[/quote]

It is your job to educate your new members. If you leave them vulnerable, the onus is on you and not CoJ. Perhaps the inclusion of "You may receive messages from someone not in ODN please ignore what ever they say" in your recruitment message might help the new guys understand whats up. I mean, you are at war and all.

Still, in my opinion, you are getting bent out of shape because of propaganda which is just hilarious in itself.

EDIT: And ODN claiming they are getting bullied by a micro-alliance? I'm dying over here.

Edited by AirMe
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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1303498453' post='2696835']
[code]
Alliance Name Total Nations Strength Avg. Strength
ODN 339 9,988,233 29,464
The Flood Empire 78 166,339 2,133
ODN Applicant 46 253,703 5,515
Cult Of Justitia 18 606,560 33,698
[/code]
My name is Schattenmann, and I am a bully.
[/quote]
You're so turrible, Schatt.

Think of the children!

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1303498453' post='2696835']
[code]
Alliance Name Total Nations Strength Avg. Strength
ODN 339 9,988,233 29,464
The Flood Empire 78 166,339 2,133
ODN Applicant 46 253,703 5,515
Cult Of Justitia 18 606,560 33,698
[/code]
My name is Schattenmann, and I am a bully.
[/quote]
Obviously they are intimidated by your superior ANS.

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[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1303499183' post='2696851']
You're so turrible, Schatt.

Think of the children!
[/quote]
Oh I do think of the children, I do: roast, rotisserie, earth-pit BBQ, succotash, blanched, so many ways for an old bully like me to think about preparing the children. Do you think you could arrange for BTA to attack CoJ first so I can bully you, too?

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1303499295' post='2696862']
Oh I do think of the children, I do: roast, rotisserie, earth-pit BBQ, succotash, blanched, so many ways for an old bully like me to think about preparing the children. Do you think you could arrange for BTA to attack CoJ first so I can bully you, too?
[/quote]

Such dishonorable ways of thinking about the children!

You're such a monster, Schatt!

PS: Only if you don't mass PM us with dishonorable propaganda, or threaten those doing tech deals with us (including our non-existent protectorate). If you don't, we'll run you to the ground with our allies while demanding an apology to the ones you threatened. :mad:

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[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303498249' post='2696827']
Yes, a tiny alliance bullying some newbish nations, real honorable, not thinking outside the box, pretending to be more relevant than they are is all. Light terms is sill light terms.[/quote]

They can be delicious and refreshing orange juice, you're missing the point. :rolleyes:

If I'm in command and you tell me that your applicant AA is "off limits" because they are new, I'll laugh in your face. If I don't attack them, it's because I've made a determination that I don't want to waste resources chewing up small fry, not because it's forbidden fruit. Indeed, your ally, MK, has another ally right now that is cheerfully bringing in recruits, showing them how to load and fire and rifle, and sending them off to the front, not detouring them into an applicant AA at all. Oddly, they are doing it right, you are the ones doing it wrong.

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[quote name='darkfox' timestamp='1303348252' post='2695058']


This however takes me back to my original point. Why bother with a smear campaign when you could have had peace by now?

Edit: Grammar
[/quote]

You don't get even remotely as much attention when you're at peace.

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[quote name='Ubermeir' timestamp='1303498249' post='2696827']
pretending to be more relevant than they are is all.
[/quote][quote name='Daikos' timestamp='1303500845' post='2696888']
You don't get even remotely as much attention when you're at peace.
[/quote]
This is exactly what's going on. CoJ waited until ODN rejected our surrender or ceasefire 3 times and then switched up terms on the 4th try over a period of 40 days and THEN wrote a thread because we're all about the attention.

4/11/2011:
<Schattenmann> CoJ has offered to surrender three times since hostilities began and ODN has refused each one pending total peace. If that's still your assertion then sure, the negotiations may be over but the war is not until it is
<OsRavan[ODN]> yes and yes
<OsRavan[ODN]> we will not even be voting on your terms until after you have secured a perliminary agreement with mk
<Schattenmann> As long as you understand that and we don't get a bunch of "you attacked after our agreement!" if we launch furter attacks
<OsRavan[ODN]> not at all, attack away

Welcome to further attacks.

Edited by Schattenmann
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They bullied the newbish nations, not ODN, but noone really missed that. As with the messages, yeah funny, funny as in they had no real meaning because they couldn't be backed up, so really pointless. I am laughing at the fight to back that up as meaningful. Hey, carry on whining about how awful the terms are because we don't see it that way. Fill up pages and pages about it have fun. In the end...light terms is light terms no matter how you try and misrepresent...well just about anything that is ever said.
Ha! Light terms is terrible.

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