SyndicatedINC

Bold move our fellow purples, we salute you! Modspeed!

Hurray, more Sir Paul musings. These and TWiP never fail to entertain. Good on you sir!

Most pleased to see more peace coming to our fellow Purple.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1297032146' post='2622774'] So does this make an even dozen alliances who have declared on GOONS? [/quote] I suppose, again we have no intention of attacking so if it is an issue for GOONS we can amend it if you really want. Is there really a difference though, since being at war with one is being at war with all DH?

First, thank you for all the hard work you put into this! Second a quick correction, Avalon did not attack FAN, and as far as we know neither did TPF, a quick check of the FAN warpages is showing only NPO nations.

[quote name='Axolotlia' timestamp='1297017434' post='2622373'] I remember when TLDR's weren't too long to read... [/quote] Our abject apologies, we tried to keep it as short as we could, and even include pictures [quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1297017713' post='2622378'] Hmm, I take it when people say they declare on "Doomhouse" they don't mean GOONS. Cause I don't see any new wars on us by you or the other guys who said that. [/quote] I can not speak as to others intention on this however in our case, yes sir you are correct. Avalon launched no in game wars against GOONS, the DoW on DH, was merely a formality to acknowledge the DH policy of any attacks on a single alliances is a state of war with all. If GOONS is upset at their inclusion, we meant no offense, and offer to amend it if actually matters. Again, we were just operating on what we understood the DH position to be.

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297014037' post='2622274'] to be quite honest, we don't care all that much. We just find it funny to grab any chain we can and give them a good old yank. [/quote] Okay, thank you for the honest response. I was starting to wonder if we guessed the situation correctly or not.

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297012925' post='2622250'] and we feel our war was just. Thank you for your support. [/quote] Well I should hope that you were not supporting it if you felt otherwise Also you are truly welcome, though you may not believe it, we do support a portion of the position that you have put forth. So in regards to the GOONS question of the declaration as discussed earlier. Is it an issue that we declared against DH rather the other alliances besides GOONS? I am actually curious, because we honestly were and still are under the assumption that this was how GOONS would have seen it anyway, even if we did not declare directly on them in the announcement. In the end whether we issued in game wars or an official DoW was irrelevant to the GOONS view, yes?

[quote name='The Crimson King' timestamp='1297011693' post='2622226'] Edit: Syn was one minute faster than I it appears. [/quote] Sorry about that good sir, did not mean to steal your thunder there.

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297010368' post='2622210'] so glad you agree with the Doom House stand. [/quote] [quote name='Guffey' timestamp='1297010568' post='2622215'] i said just. In our eyes, what you did was not just. Hence our war against you. If you read the DoW carefully you will see that [/quote] Pretty much as my comrade states. While we agree that a treaty is not required for war, we do feel a war should be just. In the case of the DH war going on, we feel it is not just, thus our objection and agreement to stand against it. However if you expect from us, a continuation of the arguments elsewhere about the treatyless entry, then you will search in vain, since yes, in that manner we agree with you. Thus why we are here on a front against DH and not on a front against FAN, as we find their claim to a pound of flesh a just one.

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1297009770' post='2622197'] so, if you're accepting the Doom House conceit of a declaration on one being a declaration on all... doesn't that mean that your optional defense pact doesn't apply? After all, TPF attacked Doom House, rather than the other way round, if you're accepting this conceit. [/quote] Well first, before addressing the direct question you asked, in relation to it, we understand the pile on against you, and believe it or not we sympathize with you. Thus we would not deign to join in to it. If GOONS are upset that we would include them by issuing against the entirety of DH, well that was not our intent. If GOONS has an issue with being included in our war declaration, we could amend it to be only the other members of DH. However I would be most confused if that was the case, since we presumed from previous behavior and statements from DH that you were intending to treat all wars as one. Our intent was simply to cut out the middleman stage or pretense otherwise. We thought you would prefer such anyway as it is less issue all around for everyone, no? Onto the question at hand, the TPF treaty is slightly misleading, since Avalon does not hold treaties of sorts, the situation is actually a case of a non-mutual level relationship. We take an Oathe of fidelity and brotherhood towards another alliance and in the case of TPF we swore an oADPIAT (so longa s we agree with their reasoning), whereas they via a normal treaty give to us an ODP. So in technical terms of normal treaty relationships, the answer is yes it is beyond the ODP aspect but not the oA promise from us to them. However also as Guffey stated, we have been of the crowd that feels treaties are obligations to act in the manner one promised (which is why we only promise to act if we agree), however we dont hold to the belief that a treaty is required to do the right thing, just so long as you are not jumping on a victorious bandwagon, or crash a party without consent of the side you wish to join. As for the second part of the question, while I certainly see the point, the e-lawyers out there would easily stretch it to include that an attack on TPF's MADP partner was an attack on TPF, thus warranting defense clauses. In the end people seem to just e-lawyer such treaties to death and do what they want to do anyway it seems. Anyway sorry about the wall of text response.

[quote name='Stefano Palmieri' timestamp='1297006134' post='2622139'] Have fun, may DH crush you etc. (Ok, I really came in here to say I think you have an awesome flag). [/quote] Thanks, though in truth it is a three year old 'placeholder' and we have been working on an improved one for the entire time. Unfortunately we take longer with flags than we do with DoW's [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1297006168' post='2622140'] Thanks for this [/quote] Your welcome, thank you for having nations that know how to fight well. [quote name='MagicalTrevor' timestamp='1297006308' post='2622141'] Using an OA to continue on with boosting GOONS total wars? Thanks for that, we were just beginning to think GOONS would shutup about how many alliances were on them :< Interesting time for a blitz and interesting nations aswell, all so similar . . . [/quote] Actually we are not engaging GOONS nations, they have enough people on them, it is not our way to get involved in such a pile on. However we figured it would just make things simpler if we declared on DH as an entity given that it was already stated that DH sees any such DoW on one as the same as a DoW on the whole. So if GOONS wants to claim that we are increasing their total wars, they can do so, but clearly someone would need lessons in counting As for the timing, we are cranky old folks, we get up WAY to early to be bothered with that trendy night time DoW stuff. Country Kitchen Buffet opens at 5:30 in the am you know! [quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1297006396' post='2622145'] But if I recall, that movie ends with our characters shooting yours to death. [/quote] Indeed [quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1297006767' post='2622153'] No I couldn't honestly mention that, because in your defence you actually have your entire top tier in war mode. [/quote] Thanks for noticing, though to be fair it wont be the top tier for long lol

[center][img]http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7445/battleensign3.jpg[/img][/center] Assembled Rulers Greetings, Action naturally begets consequence; this has long been and indeed should be the way of the world. Although said consequence may arrive belated, still must it arise from deserving action, and once meted the subject must be purged of responsibility to face further consequence for the same action, even if not exonerated for the original act. However, an action it is not to merely exist. Nor is it worthy of consequence to simply exist at a level of strength and prosperity that others may find disagreeable. Sins past, once suffered for, must be absolved. Respect must be maintained for the sanctity of the unconnected bystander's wish to remain uninvolved in an affair. Without placing such limitations upon ourselves, we break down our entire society. Of the traits attributed to Avalon by those who know us best, 'swiftness of action' is not typically one found. Rather history has demonstrated that we plod at a slow and measured pace. This stems from a preference to be guilty of the fault of inaction, as opposed to the far more egregious fault of improper action. Although not best known for snap decisions, we are known for making resolute decisions. Once a conclusion is reached on a course of action we commit, secure that it is the honourable and proper path. It is in this spirit of patient and reasoned temperance that we observed the current global strife. A few stood out from the others filling us with an overwhelming depth of sadness as we witnessed their display of an absolute disregard for decent civilized convention, respect, and courtesy, as well as a desire to bring harm to uninvolved innocents of the world. This is quite simply unacceptable behavior. Such unrestrained depraved barbarism can not in good conscience be permitted to go unchecked. Thusly at the mutual decision of The Phoenix Federation and Avalon, for a cause found to be in good faith and honourable as per our Oathe of Brotherhood, Avalon hereby issues this proclamation declaring that a state of war now exists between our island nation and the Doom House BLOC. Avalon enters into this conflict to take a stand against the loathesome precedents being set by Doom House in this war and to uphold our sacred bond to our Brothers and Sisters in The Phoenix Federation and their esteemed allies. In the prosecution of this war Avalon seeks only the cessation of attacks by the Doom House BLOC upon The Phoenix Federation and their allies likewise unjustly engaged. The moment this is achieved shall be a joyous one as that is the moment that peace can once again settle upon our blessed shores. May Admin have mercy upon us all, may the Mods in heaven guide and protect both sides in this conflict, bringing a swift victory to the just. Long Live The Phoenix Federation! Long Live Avalon! Long Live Doom House! Mods Save The Queen! [b]Decreed in the year of our Mods and Holy Admin Kevin, this day February 6, 2011 by Her Royal Ladyship and Supreme Majesty,[/b] [i]Queen Kandria, Sovereign of all Avalon[/i] [b]Signed for the Prime Minister of Her Majesty's Government:[/b] [i]First Lord of Avalon, Subotai, Lord of Blades of Shadow[/i] [b]Signed for the Foreign Office of His Majesty's Government:[/b] [i]Foreign Secretary, SyndicatedINC, Lord of Schwertbruder[/i] [b]Signed for the Houses of Avalon by the Home Office:[/b] [i]Lord High Chancellor, David der Grosse, Lord of New Nippon [/i] TLDR; Apparently DH was all upset because the NPO didn't want to play thug gangsta with them, and was all better than them so they started hassling NPO. [center][img]http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1487/avalonprop1.jpg[/img][/center] NPO's friends jumped in to help out, a fight broke out ending up on Avalon's lawn where some garden gnomes got busted. Avalon being cranky old war vets don't like people on our lawn and get all flashbacky. So we took our M1 and told DH to get off our lawn. [center][img]http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2685/avalonprop2.jpg[/img][/center] For those unfamiliar with the references, I direct you to the following [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NelBNtNm8l0"]scene from the film "Gran Torino".[/url] **Warning, Foul Language**

[quote name='Devilyn Caster' timestamp='1296969754' post='2621392'] Our objective is clear: Legion’s forces will leave GOONS’ territory. Legion will eventually comply with all relevant surrender terms, and then, when peace is restored, it is our hope that Legion will live as a peaceful and cooperative member of the family of alliances, thus enhancing the security and stability of our planet. [/quote] This is an oxymoron however, since "enhancing the security and stability of our planet" is PRECISELY what their slaughtering GOONS accomplishes.

I have been following this from the start for the but this is the first I have heard about that first point aside from the lennox story, however in that variant it is Impero doing the spying. Also I completely disagree with your second point, jokingly directed a choice of targets and picking a name is no worse than sethb actively accepting spied information and then protecting the identity of the spy. The only difference is when it occurred (one case is before the screenshots the other is after).

Also, I am not saying that the move was the wisest. It was VERY poor judgment on his part. However stupidity while not an excuse, is also not evidence of malice.

Well that is what I meant by griefer. I know of rerolls in the past who came back in to the game to grief an alliance by stealing aid, roguing, and spilling internal secrets publicly while speaking of the actions as spying. Honestly reading the logs on that first day, before I got to the logs of the screenshots, that was what I thought lennox was implying that he was doing. There is a big difference between joking with an old friend turned griefer and running a spy operation wherein you recruit/select/train a spy, pick their target, send them in, and intentionally receive their information hand-offs. Had Dajabo sat on the info, I would be 100% with you that it seems likely he was mostly acting in the in the latter, however since he immediately took steps to out the spy and report the incident to the victim, it seems as if he was far more the former. If the infringement is that he picked the nation name and was aware lennox was going into VE to spy, that is an identical offense to sethb knowing the identity of a spy in NPO, accepting information and then keeping it secret to protect the spy's identity. In both cases the individual is guilty of keeping a known spy operation secret. Again on that I agree with you that this is not really CB worthy. Knowing of a spy operation and keeping quiet is quite rude, but deserving of more diplomacy resolution than fireworks on uninvolved nations. Actually RUNNING one (deliberately going out to setup a spy operation, then actively maintaining and directing it) I feel would be a solid CB. However given Dajabo's surprise at receiving actual screenshots, and behavior by quickly moving to out the spy (thus cut off any further flow of juicy information) indicates a lack of intention to actually run such an operation. When one intends to run a spy operation, one generally does not report the information and spy to the victim the moment the spy is successful as doing so defeats the purpose of gaining access to a flow of secrets.

See that is the thing Bob, I have long respected your opinion, and mean no disrespect now. I agree with this first statement, that knowing of a spy but not informing on him isnt really a rock solid CB. It could be, it could not be, depending upon other outside circumstances, namely how the alliance in questions handles it. However with that in mind read your own statement here: By your own, and all the involved parties statements, Dajabo did not recruit the spy, the spy recruited himself and approached Dajabo. Dajabo did not order the chosen target, just pointing away from a less interesting target and acquiesced on the target the spy chose. Dajabo did not solicit for the information nor request or choose what information to be targeted, the information was brought by the spy to Dajabo at the behest of the spies own interest in creating drama (as admitted by the spy himself). Lastly Dajabo was not even aware that the spying would be real and he would actually be given information until the moment it actually happened. Up until that point they both agreed that Dajabo thought it was a joke, or some minor griefing. Thus Dajabo and sethb both received screenshots, they both knew of a spy's identity and behavior. That is the similarity. The differences are Dajabo: -helped pick the spy's reroll name -dissuaded the spy from an uninteresting target, suggesting two different ones -was unaware the spying conversation was real until he got the information -reported the incident as soon as he knew the spy was for real sethb: -did not pick the spy's name -as far as we know did not pick the target -was aware the spy was real and offering real information -kept the incident hidden from the offended alliance and protected the spy Based upon that, as an uninvolved party, and being completely OOC, ignoring all sides and politics, I can not reasonably see how any party which argues that the sethb situation does not warrant a CB (of which I am one), can in good conscience, and reasonable logic, argue the Dajabo situation is even equivalent, let alone worse.

Okay I lol'ed. Allt hings considered it sounds tasty, then again its bacon and well o/ Bacon

Reading this I had only one thought come to mind... [img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/195/471650882_bba44a32c6.jpg[/img] Really?!? Really MN and VE, really?!? [img]http://www.idealaunch.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/seth_and_amy_really.jpg[/img]

Good luck sigrun

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1296278999' post='2608756'] This Noir business is going to get confusing [/quote] That was exactly what I was thinking, get out of my head damn you! Anyway good luck Dark Templar.

Knowing Dark Templar, you may come to regret this decision soon. [quote name='Goose' timestamp='1296279553' post='2608831'] P.S. As we've been fighting LoSS as well, some of us are in anarchy and unable to declare offensive wars. We have many defensive slots available if you would be so kind as to declare wars against us. [/quote] Okay,okay, good one, I laughed pretty hard

Well firecrackers are befitting a celebration a national anniversary as such. Cheers, don't get so drunk you are unable to fight the next day.

Bob Janova, I have often held you in high regard for presenting reasoned and respectable positions. This presentation is again no different. However while it is well composed, I find you are missing an important aspect of this and every other war discussion. That being, if we are to be honest about things, that people often begin their decision making process by first identifying which "side" they want to be in the right, and then working back from that point, interpreting the facts and forming judgment opinions of events in order that they inevitably lead to the already predetermined conclusion of who is correct. Thus once again if we are honest about it, most individual's viewpoints may be their truthful opinion. This does not however mean that it is a non-biased or factual based assessment of the situation. Thus it should be little surprise that many will be in disagreement over the CB. If the evidence is anything less than overwhelmingly clear-cut it will be manipulated in people's thinking to fit their desired outcome. Thus while one side sees the logs as a clear indication of Polar's second in command orchestrating a spy operation, others see a private joke that was manipulated by lennox in order to create a war. This multi-viewpoint dance carries on and on across all the evidence until you are left with diametrically opposed camps. In the end the real and absolute truth is probably somewhere more in the middle. Such that Dajobo probably is more culpable for the incident than one side admits, but likewise VE is being a bit more hypocritical (given their position about such a similar incident that led to the Karma war) than a another side admits. Additionally there is also the issue of consistency that is often over-looked. When a party uses a specific term or position, whether they do so for the mere PR propaganda or earnest belief, they need to recall that it will stick with them, and it will be used to judge actions that they take later down the line. Thus if you are stating that a government member holding screenshots and not notifying the victim alliance is NOT a CB, then it will again and again be brought up in the current situation as being an inconsistent position.