The Zigur

How does one activate a treaty with a disbanded alliance?

I don't think it will be a question of sloppiness. But, I don't think discipline is easy to maintain in such a chaotic situation. MK was one of the most capable alliances out there, but unless MK is still run by a shadow government with long term policy goals (a distinct possibility I hear), Mushqaeda will likely become harder to control with each passing day. [ooc]As part of my work in the Army I had to study and track Taliban, HIG and other Islamic groups, and while resilient, they became increasingly difficult to control centrally and began to splinter into rival groups over time.[/ooc] So if the MK remnants do not become sloppy, I would begin to suspect whether the alliance truly disbanded. Especially if TOP still has your back.

I would not say it is unprofitable to attack them, that all depends upon the objective. All there has to be for an attack is capability and motive, and in a chaotic world, both are in ready supply. This already happens with solo nations and nonaligned micro alliances; TDO is simply on a larger scale. Neutral alliances are inevitably safer to attack than an alliance with ties in the treaty web. After all, I don't see anyone stepping up to defend TDO thus far.

This war will either break TDO, or militarize them and forge steel from iron and blood. Struggle is the test of the soul, and those who prevail become greater than they would have with only peace. Best of luck to TDO, this will become a test of heart.

Neutral alliances have only thrived because the old Hegemony (with the exception of GPA war) tolerated their peaceful coexistence and set that precedent. Ironically, in a chaotic world, neutrality becomes a more dangerous strategy as demonstrated by the attacks on The Democratic Order. Neutral alliances become an easier, more isolated target in a world with multiple power spheres. This has been demonstrated by tech raids on nonaligned micro alliances. As to the NPO and Francoism, they are not necessarily one and the same... If they were, I might be in NPO. :p Many alliances and leaders have followed Francoist-style policies, if not in name. It is also misleading to think of politics as merely being role-play. Politics are a necessity in resolving disputes that do not require military action, and in building cooperation between people who otherwise may have nothing in common.

Francoism is not such a unique ideology, or rather perspective, that it is the sole power in the universe. There are many "ideologies," but most are either irrelevant or counterproductive, because they do not objectively analyze and represent the material reality of CN. I was never part of the original Pacifica from worlds away, nor was I a member of NPO during it's perceived reign of CN. It is arguable whether I am even a "true" Francoist! Francoism is best thought of as a philosophy and analytical tool that guides the thoughts and actions of the Francoist in decision and policy making. I am personally a compulsive man, inclined to violence, argument, and trolling; Francoism has benefited me because it makes me stop, think, and consider whether my actions will represent the principles of Francoism well. It has changed my pattern of thinking over time. Following Francoist principles results in stability, a powerful economy, a coherent foreign affairs strategy, and effective military. Bringing order out of chaos is the most noble thing a nation can accomplish, and prosperity follows in the coat-tails of a lawful, just order. Stability brings strength and cooperation. This, and not some gobbly gook, is what really pulls a nation, an alliance, a hegemony together.

This is only going to make the next Hegemony that much more powerful.

So are there moderate, nonviolent Mushlims who believe in living alongside the infidel neutrals? lol

Reminds me of the first time I tried to join NPO lol

That's usually a sign of success, and haters don't like success. I myself have been wondering why people like Dionysus have suddenly started following me around, then I heard about what happened in the past between them and LAW. I feel sorry for the trolls; hate is a bitter grail to drink from. Nothing against Loki or anything. But trolling makes the target look much more relevant.

That aspect to it was discussed in my OP, don't see where the counter-argument is.

I look forward to educated replies.

Years ago, as an enemy of the Orders I pondered to myself "why are they so successful?" After all, for years they enjoyed unrivaled power in every sense of the word... militarily they were one of the strongest alliances; diplomatically, the best connected; ideologically, completely unchallenged. Indeed, for my first three or four years of existence they were never defeated on the field of battle once. Vladimir once said that Pacifica enjoyed exceptionalism that was like steel forged from blood and iron, and while at first I dismissed this as propaganda, I was compelled to understand this dynamic even as I sought to undermine it. The original IAA was no friend to the NPO. I originally came to know them because Emperor Chimaera pledged a protectorate to my fledgling alliance, but I soon discovered that many in the alliance shared my anti-Order sentiments. So I joined and was soon involved in government affairs. The IAA was one of a few to publicly stand against the Order at the time, and I knew we had a target painted on our back. Within a few months I had gained a better understanding of NPO and the global situation, but I still felt I had an inadequate comprehension of what really drove the Order's success. I began to write Vladimir, and later, Cortath, to gain their perspective of what powered the Order, and I was introduced to Francoism. They recommended that I read the articles, and although ponderous and wordy, they were highly interesting to me. I refused to simply dismiss Francoism as meaningless drivel like most of my friends and allies and delved into the literature of the Body Republic. I began to understand that although the label Francoism was applied to give it a Pacifican twist, it was inspired by a combination of far older works that precede the existence of our world. It was an educational experience being introduced to the works of Hobbes, Marx, Plato, and many others, seeing that i came from a less educated background in terms of higher philosophy. Although I did not agree with some of these philosophers individually, the reinterpretation Vladimir provided and adapted to this world struck me as genius. When you boiled down the fancy words and abstract concepts, Francoism represented a code of conduct for the Order to follow, and more importantly, truly believe in. With this rudimentary understanding, I began to attempt to replicate it myself, and failed twice. In my government service to IAA, I began to implement a basic version of this ideology within our own alliance, producing videos and newsletters to promote Imperial Exceptionalism and shaping the internal structure of the alliance after the NPO herself. In Vox Populi, I attempted a counter-ideology that was meant to sweep the Francoist rug from under Vladimir's feet. For many reasons, the NPO prevailed both times, and in Vox I was pressured to leave because the label "Francoist" left me rather unpopular. The student could not defeat the sage. In the end, the NPO declined like all empires do, and a new order began to form that replaced them. Perhaps the most well known amongst this new order was the Mushroom Kingdom. Mushroom Kingdom was as competent as Pacifica militarily and diplomatically, and a struggle of wills ensued that ended in multiple Pacifican defeats. But MK and it's allies lacked one thing: a stability-encouraging higher ideology that could place collective principles above the individual, and pave the way to long term dominance. Instead, the Mushroom Kingdom's incomplete dominance came into fruition with the "friends before infra" philosophy of foreign affairs. It was superbly executed, and lead to many victories and strong alliances, but unlike the old NPO, Mushroom Kingdom would never be able to provide a new hegemony because of the internal contradictions inherent in this approach. This was the beginning of Global Feudalism. With no higher ideology or sense of purpose guiding the victors, they would soon decay into competing power spheres battling for petty influence on an almost month-to-month schedule -- only held together weakly, out of fear of the NPO. With this decay came population decline and further draining of talent. It reminds one of the fall of the Roman Empire or Soviet Union in other planes of existence. Newer, more amateur leadership styles encouraged more egotistical approaches, devolving politics into blood feuds, alliance-wide raids, and even the abandonment in many cases of traditional Casus Belli approaches to war. Stability will never exist again while these trends prevail. Pacifica was ruthless and perhaps power-mad in her latter days of dominance, but the stability that is central to Francoism continued to prevail as long as the old-school leaders of Pacifica ruled. This stability came from following and believing in policies that were in line with Francoism, and which encouraged stability: concepts like the Casus Belli, written treaties, and honoring agreements allows for a certain degree of trust between alliances that would otherwise have nothing in common. Opposite of this, policies such as mass tech raids, unprovoked and illegitimate wars, and undisciplined foreign policy encourages mistrust and disunity between all parties. The way Mushroom Kingdom disbanded, while quite humorous and entertaining to us observers, summed up the policies that would prevent MK and her adherents from ever achieving the success and empire that Pacifica once enjoyed. Perhaps that was the intention: many enjoyed the opportunity for war and plunder that a chaotic environment brings. Judging from the decline in population, however, I do not think that this was the case for most. A new class of exploiter arose that reflected the conflict between userites and feederites of classical Francoism; and a small group of nations exploited chaos at the expense of many others. Such a policy brings many short term benefits to capable alliances, but they will always suffer in the long term. Despite everything, NPO outlasted her greatest enemy despite having declined herself. Francoism may seems boring, abandoned and outdated, but there are still many lessons it can illuminate, and until leaders like those of old rise in the world again, Global Feudalism will remain the state of affairs.

You are obviously ignorant of what actually happened if you think CSN "spawned" House Baratheon.

Interesting turn of events. Looks like I have my homework set out for me. Best wishes to MK

LOL saw this coming

You can meet me on IRC when I'm online... or good old fashioned well composed letter though it seems like a lost art these days...

:ph34r: Anyone who has an issue with LAW can come and see myself directly. I could care less how well the charter is spelled or how well liked plume is. I didn't even participate in the treaty negotiations, however they have grown on me, and as long as LAW remains under House Baratheon protection I intend to exert every influence to see to it remaining safe and protected.

Doubtful, as we have great difficulty finding government members able to resolve the most simple misunderstandings.

We are currently in a period I once labelled the "dark ages" that parallels the fall of the Roman Empire. Much like the ensuing period of real-world feudalism, economic developments and declining population made a central empire almost impossible to maintain. This would include the fall of Pacifican influence which was founded on Francoism. Many saw Francoism as a cheap trick, but in reality it endorsed a rational foreign policy based on the self-interests of member-nations. This type of ideological clarity is much of what kept NPO in power, and no other alliance has replicated it to such a degree nor implemented a coherent ideology to guide foreign policy objectives. NPO partially fell from power as new leaders failed to adhere to Francoist ideology effectively. As a result, most modern foreign policies are now based around the whims of alliance leaders guided by greed, envy, undisciplined ambition, or hate, rather than any higher purpose. This is the only reason why perma-ZI sentences and viceroys have not been seen for so long: modern leadership principles do not save their strength for the right moment, and engage in halfway wars with weak coalitions. Too many chiefs in one tent with their own personal policy goals prohibits the creation of another hegemony. Until either NPO or someone else replicates AND executes the ideological clarity and power of Francoism that guided leadership decisions, the world will continue to remain divided and weak.

Actually, I was referring to the present tense. My hopes were dashed in finding an active member of GOONS government, especially after being banned from #cybergoons. Perhaps the situation can be resolved if it is brought up publicly, since government cannot be found by more private means. http://www.cybernations.net/war_information.asp?ID=736604

Oops, thought you were GOONS cause your nation name.

Funny, perhaps you should work on controlling your own rogues before criticizing another alliance.

Well, to be fair if that is the strategy they want to pursue and they feel it will advance their agenda, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that. If, as you say, these alliances base their foreign policy on [ooc]ooc[/ooc] friendships, it would seem to be that it will simply place them at a disadvantage later. It confuses things certainly, but if everyone played the game of thrones as you describe that they should, we would probably have another hegemony right now. Instead I now see squabbling between alliances before wars have even ended. Bad strategy always comes back to bite in the end.

Well, I've mostly caught up on the politics of planet bob. It would seem many of the old school strategists have left the game; those who have inherited the world have descended into post-apocalyptic feudalism. It recalls the fall of the Roman Empire. More opportunity really.