Beefspari
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Posts posted by Beefspari
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[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1330358617' post='2929290']
Ok, I'll make it simple. They don't send aid if members of your alliance aren't raiding their friends in the first place, so it's clear who initiated the action. However, aiding the raid targets was the last move to make since it gives you an excuse to escalate further--and you did.
The best way to fight GOONS or any raiding alliance is to position your alliance in such a manner that your nations aren't a tempting target in the first place and you do that through diplomacy and having strong (in terms of NS as well as loyal), well connected allies.[/quote]
Your position is that we "enable" people to aid targets we're at war with and due entirely to the fact that we participate in raids it's okay? It's not really in our best interest to cease raiding entirely just to keep a few people from assisting people we're engaged with. In fact, when they do we get results like these. Since you're so opposed to raiding that you believe it makes aiding raided nations mid-combat totally justified, I invite you to try it yourself.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisyayL1.jpg[/img]
[right]It's not like we forced this to happen or are unreasonable. We didn't jump straight from aid -> war. We offered them the chance to end the conflict and they said no. It's not our fault it escalated to this point.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisR12.jpg[/img][/right]
[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1330359400' post='2929296']
GOONS aided a former-GOONS nuke rogue who was at war with me not once, but twice, and refused any sort of compensation because they can't be assed to make sure every one of their retard members isn't aiding nuke rogues. This while demanding $20,000,000 from CoJ and $900,000,000 from NSO when Methrage tricked one of our members into a techdeal, resulting in the satirical work "[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91902"]GOONS Owes Me $90,000,000[/url]", which, not surprisingly, flew right over the heads of said retard horde.
[/quote]
Wrong and lies. We offered compensation but you blew it off, and instead of offering to negotiate or deal with it further you just bring it up every couple months when you run out of things to complain about.
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[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1330352851' post='2929256']
You just punched your last ticket, GOONS. Nice knowin' ya.
[/quote]
MONGOLS have 22 nations. We fought more than that in Roguefest.
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[quote name='lord bitburg' timestamp='1330326641' post='2929135']
Your DOW states we offered 6 million??? What mongol offered to pay 6 million. WE will not pay you anything, and I fart in your general direction.
[/quote]
We've heard that one lots of times.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris9_9L2.jpg[/img]
[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330328235' post='2929153']
I should? I thought events here spoke for themselves.
[/quote]
Are you trying to say it's totally all right to just send money, tech, and soldiers to people at war and then refuse any compensation? If GOONs did that to people you're dealing with you'd just let it go?
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriswutL1.jpg[/img]
[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330346999' post='2929230']
Not sure why Mongols didn't ink something with Olympus.
[/quote]
It really is a shame. Getting reps from Olympus a second time would've been nice.
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[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1330321585' post='2929073']
Does it matter? GOONS will aid at their discretion their raiders, but targets (that's anyone they think they can get away with raiding, BTW) are directed to sit and take it. Unless you are prepared to take on DH the smart move is to aid after a raid and then go get enough allies so that the next time GOONS raids you, they end up paying you reps.
[/quote]
I'm not sure I follow your logic. It's our fault they decided to aid people we're at war with? And then not pay reps when confronted about it? I mean, literally, they just started sending tech and soldiers to a guy we're raiding. We asked for compensation and they said "Nope." How exactly do you turn this around and make them the victims? Who was forcing them to aid someone we're at war with? What was keeping them from owning up to their mistakes?
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[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1330319325' post='2929036']
Six Million Dollar wars were only cool when we did it.
[/quote]
Technically this was more like a 9m/100t/6000s war.
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[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1330309974' post='2928983']
So you acknowledge that you instigated this?
[/quote]
Twist it however you want. MONGOLS aided someone we're at war with. We asked for reps and they said no. We're escalating the issue. Do whatever you want with this treaty. In fact, we'd all really enjoy it if you did. You did tell me a couple weeks ago to come at you. Well, here we are.
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All we really ask for is some cooperation and reason. I don't know, some people feel the need to push the envelope though. Maybe they don't think we're serious? I guess we'll find out. When we say, "Uh, maybe don't aid people we're at war with," we plan on following through with that. This'll have to go down on record as "setting an example."
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[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1330051601' post='2927224']
actually it was all signed [b]over a week ago[/b], Kaskus is just lazy
[/quote]
[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1330178074' post='2928115']
I would like you to know that the situation between Mongols and GOONs [b]started before the signing of this treaty[/b].[/quote]
Interesting. This treaty happened [b]after[/b] the incident you say? This treaty was posted on the 23rd. Over a week ago would make it at least the 16th, if it was really signed "over a week ago." The first time we took notice of this incident is the 18th. Because the aid itself was sent on the 18th. The first time we made contact concerning it was the 22nd. "To: Lord Bitburg From: Tristesse Date: 2/22/2012 1:29:03 PM" If it happened [b]after[/b] the incident, it was a one-day process. So either it was signed quickly as a rush job to interfere with our procedure, or you signed it before the incident not knowing what you were getting into. Which one is it?
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[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330024050' post='2926872']
If you had read my post, you would have noticed I was referencing MK ghosting other folks AA's. You have an opinion on that, or would you like to tilt at another windmill?
[/quote]
I knew what you were talking about. But MK already apologized for that, and that's not what this thread is about.
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[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330021529' post='2926826']
Quite a track record of poor choices you guys are assembling. Maybe you should write a book, "How to make enemies and infuriate people without really trying."
[/quote]
The only people who disapprove of MK supporting tech dealers actually honoring tech deals are the ones who hated MK in the first place. We aren't breaking any ground or learning anything new. This is just this week's installment of the people on the two different sides coming up with wild and crazy new ways to justify their own side's stance.
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[quote name='Mr Gross' timestamp='1330013656' post='2926703']
Yeah, I originally posed the question using IRON ain the example, then remembered that IRON has a lower tier. That is why I used Umbrella for the example instead. In short, if a high NS alliance signed on this, would a low NS alliance come to help them despite lack of political friendship?
[/quote]
This statement doesn't require or imply any military action or cooperation/coordination out of alliances that are not already allied. It's merely a document stating that they have similar ideas and principles on this topic. If someone was ripped off it's up to them to figure out how to react to it. It doesn't mean if CoJ signs this (they won't) that GOONs has to defend their honor.
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[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330010548' post='2926670']
After bringing in how many of your allies? The point I'm making is I don't believe GOONS has ever faced anyone alone, even when it could of been considered.
Also you "defeated" those alliances after receiving billions in aid to keep fighting. If anyone is gloating about it, it should be Umbrella.
[/quote]
This whole "you guys would suck if you didn't have allies" thing is getting really old. What's your point? Everyone would suck without allies. Can you name anyone that would be able to withstand a war by themselves and win? The entire reason Doomhouse exists is so we don't have to run things alone. You don't fight GOONs, you fight Doomhouse. It's how it works in this world, dude. If anything, we overplay it just to piss people off. Because we can.
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[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330008598' post='2926646']
Also NG's policy is one that damages others while they profit, UE's does not follow that line of thought.
[/quote]
What? Taking money for tech deals and not paying the tech is [i][b]literally[/b][/i] damaging others while they profit.
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[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330008042' post='2926638']
So by not going by the norm, they should get belittled?[/quote]
Yes, as long as the policy is stupid. Weren't we all just here a week ago arguing about how NG isn't following the norm in their latest tech raid? Except all the sides were reversed?
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[quote name='mdnss69' timestamp='1330007587' post='2926629']
That they would rather not sells their slots than sell to you says a hell of a lot about them, so kudos to UE. They'll sell tech, but only to people they like and trust. Like I said, one size doesn't fit all.
[/quote]
Plenty of alliances already do that (GOONs included). But they do it by not accepting those deals. Not by accepting the money and then not paying the tech.
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330000481' post='2926532']
Do you realize the implicit irony in a policy where big nations threaten small nations with war is you won't be in range, basically, right? That's kind of why I was never for this kind of thing since it can't work.[/quote]
Are you sure you were paying attention when you were in Umbrella? How hard do you think it would be for Umbrella to convince GOONs to go fight a war? It could be initiated with a single PM to Sardonic that starts with "Please roll..."
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL3.jpg[/img]
[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330005408' post='2926586']
Just GOONS won't be enough, NationRuler. Your arrogance is unsurpassed.[/quote]
Are you sure? There was that one time we fought 14 alliances at the same time and then they all paid us reps.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerishehL7.jpg[/img]
[right]Besides, the only way this makes sense either way is A) you only punish the offending nation in which case GOONs can handle that just fine and will absolutely "be enough," or B) you punish the entire alliance in which case all tiers will be necessary and MK and Umbrella get involved anyway. So what you're saying is nonsensical.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeriswutR4.jpg[/img][/right]
[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330006889' post='2926612']
Seems everyone is forgetting Roguefest.
[/quote]
What exactly happened at Roguefest that matters here? Unless you mean to agree with our fearsome might that time we defeated a zillion rogues at once.
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[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1330004422' post='2926567']
2. If people are sending out random tech deals, again you have to expect it will not go smoothly.[/quote]
Having a tech deal go awry due to individual incompetence is totally different than gov-sanctioned permission to just take money and not pay it back. UE knows (or at least I hope they know) that nobody is going to take them up on a "refund" because it's a huge waste of slots. It's a pretty effective policy though I have to admit; if UE wanted to make people hate them and hand out a CB for anyone that really wants it, this is a great execution.
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Why waste time filling up with dozens of treaties with stupid alliances when you can just treaty all the alliances you like 2-3 times each?
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[quote name='grahamkeatley' timestamp='1330003480' post='2926555']
Let me just rephrase what you said; Their alliance will now be aware of the policy that it's okay to refund their mistake of accepting a tech deal.[/quote]
"Refunding" a tech deal is a huge joke, and it's really sad if you don't realize that.
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[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1329980543' post='2926352']
Not exactly, but I hadn't exactly counted upon you to understand what it says.
Essentially, what this policy says that if you're not on the UE whitelist and you attempt to buy technology from a UE nation, it will be rejected the majority of the time, however on the off-chance that it is mistakenly accepted, that nation will receive a full refund in cash rather then the tech.
[/quote]
If it was as rare as you say they could just handle it on a case-by-case basis in private. By making this a big deal and announcing it publicly they take out the "off-chance" factor and give all their members a free pass to keep as much money as they feel like. Their alliance will now be aware of the policy that it's okay to just accept tech deals and not pay them.
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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1329941257' post='2925661']
They were going to. "Techbombing" it is called, it was explained to me how it works, and it's one of the most malicious abuses of good faith I've ever heard of. We decided to put our hoof down and stop it before it began.
[/quote]
So UE is so incapable of completing basic tech deals that they've decided to arbitrarily deem any tech deals they feel like as a donation. This can't [i]possibly[/i] backfire.
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329415642' post='2921888']
I did before. Leet Guy said "put up or shut up punk" with regards to the bros !@#$. I did. How is pursuing legit grievances psycho? I'd say gunning for someone that is the reason for the diplomatic relations(DH would not have existed without me) when they can't even see what you're saying about them is much worse. I was just a bump in the road somehow to get to Xiphosis. I really don't get it.[/quote]
No, dude. All you've done so far is talk. If we could be taken down just with talk, Schattenmann would've defeated us ages ago. You have "legit grievances" with half the world here. When it's one person versus everyone, you need to step back and realize that maybe you're the one with the problem. You're free to justify it and go about doing your thing (which you don't understand). But yes, you're nuts.
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329415089' post='2921883']
mrwuss: the rest of DH/PB isn't responding to me for a reason. I suggest you follow suit.
The gag order is fun to witness. And you idiots thought I was irrelevant? Pfft.
[/quote]
There's no "Doomhouse/PB" gag order. We're just getting tired of listening to you talk. Personally, I used to like you, before you went totally psycho and decided to try and take down a dozen alliances single-handedly. mrwuss is right: put up or shut up.
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[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1329346231' post='2921253']
Well, you just said GOONS has the same policy (which I was not aware of), so there's two large alliances that allow "tech raids" of alliances outside the standards of "common practice" in some situations.[/quote]
Are you in NG? Or GOONs? Does us having these policies make your alliance consider adopting these policies? Do you see other alliances flocking to this idea so they can DoW on larger alliances? If not then what the hell are you talking about?
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisfffL8.jpg[/img]
GOONS defending the great wall
in Alliance Announcements (IC)
Posted · Edited by Beefspari
[quote name='death from above 82' timestamp='1330359184' post='2929295']
Just trying to put some facts to it:
We did not tech raid GOONS, what we did is give so call "war aid"- I will try to explain this below
We had a member who was in a tech deal with a nation who was/is being raided by 3 GOONS... a while back when we were at war with BTA this same nation sent our member 3mil 50tech and 2000 soldiers... Our member returned the favor, while the 3 GOONS were tech raiding our tech seller. (also a tech seller to NG)[/quote]
Intriguing but misleading. There were a total of three aid offers. One is deleted now. All three had 3m attached. Two had tech and soldiers attached. Even if your member was "returning" an aid offer, that doesn't explain why he was sent at least 4000 soldiers and 100 tech along with 9m. We were told the aid was part of a "tech deal." I don't know many tech deals that involve 3m/50t packages sent to the selling nation. Additionally, this all should have been done after any wars were completed in order to avoid conflict. And actually, we tend to ask for 3x any aid sent to nations. As you guys sent 9m/100t/4000s, 18m is pretty generous. I expect the war will cost you more than 18m. So let us know how you feel about the decision in a week or four.
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