The battle proper hasn't even begun. I have learned over the course of years, the hard way, that historical precedent has some hard limits in its applicability to how alliances wage wars. I've seen groups I expected to excel flounder; I've seen groups I expected to suck turn in virtuoso performances. I've had friends disappoint me and enemies impress me. Given the alignment of nations and frustrations, I do not believe the conclusions you draw from Grudge and Dave are accurate or applicable. Of course, I find myself at an unfortunate disadvantage here. I can't crush you with facts because to do so would be a terrible breach of operational security. I never noticed such a trend from my spot in MK during those wars. We were generally pleased and extremely grateful for TOP's military performance. Unfortunately I can't seem to find the posts from after the war where we analyzed losses. I only recall from most to least it went something like SF/XX/NpO--MJ--PF--DH--PB. Hearing "TOP DIDN'T FIGHT HARD ENOUGH" about Grudge is therefore really amusing to me, because from my seat in that war they paid more than did my little locality. That's good and fine, but it doesn't dissolve the fact that you benefitted at the expense of others, though I can empathize with the fact that it was due to details outside your control. In any event NATO troops provided much needed financial support in between rounds with Liz :P Given you continue to insist that you are proven right before any conclusions can be made, I don't think you're really committed to "agreeing to disagree."