Letum

It's also common knowledge that one of the reasons people try to do this (and certainly the reason in this scenario) is so that they can go off and have fun raiding or w/e whilst giving their "other" alliance the plausible deniability of "well they aren't really ours atm." - but at the same time if something goes really wrong, they can wield the power of their connections as a potential threat to let them off easy. So you end up at a point where an alliance is not responsible for the "dual members" and dual members are not responsible for any of the alliances they claim allegiance to. It's a great way to have your cake and eat it too. But there's a point where a line is crossed, and when the leader of your merry bunch of raiders sanctions a leader of Oculus, you can't suddenly claim "sorry nothing to do with me I'm just a dual member". If they wanted to be DBDC members they could have stayed there and enjoyed both the perks and limitations of that. Can't have one without the other.

Better dead than red!

Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order Comrades, friends and denizens of Planet Bob, When I became Emperor in 2014 I promised free the Pacific from the tumultuous cycle it was trapped in for half a decade and lead the Order into an age of growth and opportunity. An era where our nations would be secure to pursue the quest of efficiency, and where we would not be forced to take one step back for every step forward. A world where we can stop settling for "good enough". A world where we can take our ideology of "if it works well, take it apart and make it even better" and apply it free of any constraints - and see just how high up we can really fly. In short, I sought to make Pacifica Great Again and bring us into a Second Pacific Golden Age, much like the one I grew up in. That seemed like a tall order, coming after a war that had almost reduced us to the level of the one that had ended the First Pacific Golden Age. But the people of the Order rallied, beyond even my expectations, and rose to the challenge in every field. Success fed on success, leading to an uplifting cycle; we set aside differences with former enemies of ages past to work together and re-evaluating old practices and policies, we got the breathing space to unleash a torrent of economic innovation that saw us go from zero upper tier to a great wall of tech around the Order, and we applied all our new toys with crushing force in every situation where we needed to. Victory and Ambition came back to the Order like rain in a drought, and we embarked on our journey that took us beyond even our wildest dreams. And it brought us to today - at the top of the world. It has been a hard journey, and I will not be so vain as to claim it was without mistakes. We have not always paid attention to the events - and people - we should have. Our ruthless pursuit of the interests of our tight little circle of friends has led to unintended consequences or even a lack of caring for those outside it. In part, that is the price of Victory - it leaves behind those who have lost. In part, it is an area we need to work on, because the only threat that still exists to the Order's future is that within ourselves - one where our own arrogance and apathy cripple us. Both those traits are inefficient, and should have no role in an Order that prides itself on efficiency. But for all our faults, we have genuinely sought to bring a change to the state of the world. The Order will always pursue Victory at any cost, but that does not mean we have to be petty or excessively cruel. Grudges and old hatreds are the chains that bind this world into charting a repeating, circular and sclerotic course year after year - and it should not be this way. When we started this journey, I sought to cast aside all grudges and separate our emotions from our actions - with at least some level of success. It is something that I would encourage every alliance to do - give your neighbor a chance, if you can find some common ground. And whilst this might seem easy (or even self-serving) to say when at the top of a mountain of corpses, I guarantee you that it was much harder - but also much more useful - when downtrodden and at our lowest point for years. The Order has been at its greatest when it has shown the flexibility to be a place for second chances - be it for groups, or for individuals. As I reflect on the past couple of years, I believe that the Order is at its greatest today. We have escaped from all our mental and physical shackles, and the Golden Age we dreamed about has returned to us. We have transformed ourselves into a new kind of political player. Our community has had life injected back into it. So my job here is done. My Revolution has been successful, and it is time to hang up my hat and let the next revolution commence, taking Pacifica even higher. I am hereby stepping down as Emperor of the New Pacific Order and passing the torch along to an individual that has been utterly indispensable to everything we have accomplished, and who is more worthy to lead the Order than anybody ever has. As my final act as Emperor, I hereby appoint Frawley as the ninth Emperor of the New Pacific Order. To those Pacificans and friends that have stood beside me in this journey - thank you. I am proud of you, and thankful that you have given me so much of your hard work and excellent ideas. To those whose blood is on my hands; I am sorry for not finding a less painful way to win - perhaps one day we can yet bond over mutual victories - or through a prolonged exchange of nuclear fire. To the rest of the world - if you aren't in one of the above categories you haven't tried hard enough. To Frawley: Beat my record. Hail Emperor Frawley! Hail the Body Republic! Hail the New Pacific Order! Letum Eighth Emperor of the New Pacific Order Dungeon Master of Order

Idk, I like the alliances but something about this smells fishy...

Yeah mate, tell you what. Why don't you try walking into a grocery store next time you're out in the town, and "Demand" that they let the next person that walks up to the till buy whatever it is they came to buy. You'll just get a weird stare. Issuing an "ultimatum" over something that wasn't really in dispute in the first place and then crowing victory when it happens might make one feel better about one's personal statistical deficiencies, but they don't really make you some kind of champion. Nor does mindlessly doing the opposite thing because somebody issued you an "ultimatum" and you need to rise to the challenge make you "brave". The reverse psychology of having to do the opposite of what you're asked to protect your pride is grade-school level mentality. And frankly, if your pride is so fragile that the mere appearance of going along with an ultimatum injures it, then "bravery" is the opposite of the characteristic that would be appropriate. But you know, if you really believe that Oculus is so easily cowed and is not just being nice and diplomatic, you can always exploit that, claim the mantle of the world's top superpower, and throw your weight around to satisfy whatever motives it is you have. Because somehow, I have a feeling that it's not really Monsters Inc that you are feeling raw about.

The funniest part is how they keep dodging any question about whether they would purposefully kept Minc in war out of spite if they were in such a position. They want to shoot their mouths off but also don't want to look like the bad guys who would prolong a war for the sake of pettiness.

It all makes sense when you consider that certain alliances apparently feel the need to beat up others to "prove" they are strong, and consider it a weakness if others don't take every opportunity to do the same.

What exactly would the motive have been in the first place?

If he wants to attempt that, then I'm not sure why us giving peace to Monsters Inc would stop him.

Back in the day, that NPO would have driven Monsters to perma-zi, pre-empted Bones, and charged his entire alliance 50k of tech in reps. If you feel that is somehow better because it makes up for any feelings of inferiority be my guest, but personally I'd like to source my tech from somewhere more reliable.

You'd have blown people's minds by giving peace to Monsters Inc? I'm not sure how that would work but I'd be interested to find out.

Ah in that case I am glad you agree with us that giving Monsters peace was the right thing to do. Perhaps there is hope for you yet.

I would assume then that a hyper-aggressive alliance such as yours would have kept poor Monsters Inc at war just out of spite for what a third party said? That's not particularly fair.

Indeed, unlike certain petty alliances that harbour a grudge for revenge for every little perceived slight, Oculus is a bastion of forgiveness, fair play and upstanding moral behaviour. Our opponent wanted a bit of war fun, we had a bit of war fun, we shook hands and went home.

Well he just shed light on a grievous oversight, namely that our Monster friends wanted peace but nobody had asked us about it! I am certain now that this regrettable situation has been resolved, he won't possibly have any reason to envisage hostilities with Oculus.

Oculus - Third Decree Monsters Inc have requested peace. Oculus has granted this on the sole condition that Monsters Inc do not re-enter the broader conflict with exception for the activation of a defensive treaty in relation to: Swash Plates And Tail Rotors Nusantara Elite Warriors Kaskus Federation Of Armed Nations Senate and People of Oculus

It's not like we have any trouble talking with them, they are a perfectly pleasant coversation partner and they haven't shied away from talking to us. So they only need to ask. Honestly, I see no reason to penalize Minc because someone is butthurt.

I think at this point you should just admit that you want to see IRON burn just because, and the extent to which they have faced setbacks in the past doesn't particularly affect your feelings.

Karma and Bipolar wars.

To clarify, it's not as if TPF decided to sign up with Mi6 and suddenly everything turned sour. Both sides had problems with the relationship well before that, and we came very close to cancelling it last year. TPF obviously had their issues with our treaty choices in NSO, NG and Umb, as well as our military choices in every war after Equilibrium. We also had issues with the conduct of their representatives in the coalition boards during Disorder, the manner of their exit, with their (mutual) fighting and brinkmanship with NSO during and after the war, with the delivery of an ultimatum for that treaty, and with their Mi6 treaty. Added on top of that you had a general lack of communication between the two alliances that by itself would have been a relationship killer. If TPF and NPO had been any two other alliances, the treaty would not have existed for several years now. There was a literal mountain of problems.

I seem to recall us "bending to your cause" in the previous instance where there was a situation of conflicting treaties, last year. You know, the one where you told us that you didn't want to put us on spot, but we had to "decide".

Well, you're so similar to me, you'd fit right in! Just have to sign away your soul.

If you look at the TPF-NPO relationship in 2014, it was extremely rocky. On the one hand you had NPO choosing an FA direction that led to Umbrella and who was also allied to NG, on the other you had TPF engaging in a flame war with NSO so intense it almost caused the collapse of the defending coalition during the disorder war and almost caused a war between two of our allies afterwards. If TPF and NPO didn't have their level of history, this treaty probably wouldn't have existed a year back.

I fully aknowledge diplomatic overtures, but that isn't really the same as changing your persona - and your efforts are undermined by one only having to visit this forum to get a daily dose of hostility, petty spin and argumentativeness. Speaking for myself I really didn't care about Mi6 one way or another until far more recently than most members of Oculus; in the end really what has made me happy to go along with this is not any feeling of anger, hatred or grudge towards your alliance - but a sheer exasperation and exhaustion at the amount of bull coming through. And really, I'd have been one of the easiest people to win over. But as I said before the war: my IRC chat is always open for honest advice and discussion. I've seen it get worse frankly. You weren't even particularly bad two years ago, and a year ago if there was a room being polled, Pacifica wasn't in it. If I might add, one particular aspect I have noted is a high degree of self-assurance combined with a slew of accusations of variable quality regarding anything that might contrast with that self-assurance. Which, if you believe what you are saying might feel like "telling it like it is" and not something at issue, but to those that disagree with you it would appear to substitute repetitive loudness for debate - which is a mental strain.

Given the degree to which your current predicament stems from frustration and dislike of what one might call the unique Mi6 "persona", one might argue that efforts to change it would have helped/will help on both counts.